Waterford Airport.

TheFitz13 · 09-08-2016 11:03pm

You just simply can't compare Dublin airport and Waterford airport

invara · 09-08-2016 11:33pm

Course you can. One has cost a fortune, is over specified for our countries needs - taj mahal Bertie style. The other needs 16 mil to move a million people per annum on Ryanair flights.

TheFitz13 · 10-08-2016 12:04am

invara wrote: »

Course you can. One has cost a fortune, is over specified for our countries needs - taj mahal Bertie style. The other needs 16 mil to move a million people per annum on Ryanair flights.

How is it over specified?

waterford · 10-08-2016 12:15am

Speaking to Hotpress.com The opinions of the Minister for Training, Skills and Innovation are likely to once again rock the boat, and cause eyebrows to be raised across the political spectrum. John has called for a ban on US military planes landing at Shannon Airport, saying "If I had my way, I wouldn't let them land there at all. "We"re afraid of the goddamn Americans - that's what it is! Maybe he should make an entreaty to Donald Trump to fund a new runway for Waterford Airport and let them to land their instead.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 12:19am

hardybuck wrote: »

Ah here...maybe ask the people in Knock or Farranfore for tips. Or the people from the south east who didn't use the services.

The people in Knock and Farranfore will tell you to get a bigger runway (like they have), to allow airlines with larger aircraft (Ryanair/Easyjet) offering cheaper fares!

The people in the South East who didnt use the services will tell you they were too dear and to get a bigger runway to allow airlines with cheaper fares operate from Waterford and they would use the services!

TheFitz13 · 10-08-2016 12:26am

I'd like to see Waterford do well, really would! But you need to keep in mind more than a third of the country live in the greater Dublin area and surrounding counties, and also people from the north. Dublin is getting the new runway cause it needs it ASAP, I don't see why there's a rush with WAT that doesn't even have any flights anymore

invara · 10-08-2016 8:06am

11% of people like in the south east. 1 million people live within 1 hour of WAT. We need about 16 million for the airport to take 737s which would allow the airport to become viable, and potentially bring in and out 1 million people a year. The investment is less than 2% of what had is preposed to spend on DUB over this decade.

We are simple 2nd class citizens , left with chronically high unemployment and deprivation.

JCX BXC · 10-08-2016 12:02pm

How would WAT be any different to say LDY? LDY has been completely strangled by RYR, the only difference being is they would probably be better off with a short runway!

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 12:28pm

TheFitz13 wrote: »

I'd like to see Waterford do well, really would! But you need to keep in mind more than a third of the country live in the greater Dublin area and surrounding counties, and also people from the north. Dublin is getting the new runway cause it needs it ASAP, I don't see why there's a rush with WAT that doesn't even have any flights anymore

It does'nt have any flights because it has a short runway which excludes the type of carriers that can make the airport viable!

We are not looking for the same as Dublin, just 2-5% of what they are spending. A drop in the ocean but enough to ensure the airports survival and viability. Increase passengers tenfold from 35,0000 to 350,000. Many of these extra passengers would be people who may not have visited the region if they had to go through Dublin or Cork. They spend money on Hotels, Resturants, etc..Jobs are created, new workers pay tax...you get the picture.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 12:28pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

How would WAT be any different to say LDY? LDY has been completely strangled by RYR, the only difference being is they would probably be better off with a short runway!

Maybe we could arrange a swop!

TheFitz13 · 10-08-2016 12:33pm

You are forgetting that the DAA are providing the capital for the new runway themselves. Yes they are state owned but the money isn't coming from the taxpayer, it's from airport charges for airlines and passengers.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 1:11pm

TheFitz13 wrote: »

You are forgetting that the DAA are providing the capital for the new runway themselves. Yes they are state owned but the money isn't coming from the taxpayer, it's from airport charges for airlines and passengers.

If Waterford had airlines and passengers it too could fund infrastructural developments themselves. But they can't because they don't have the infrastructure to create the oppurtunity to obtain airport charges. Its a chicken and egg situation.

Of course Dublin can fund the new runway themselves now..they are a very successful airport and more power to them..but who paid for the runway extensions over the years when they were required?

notharrypotter · 10-08-2016 1:31pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

If Waterford had airlines and passengers it too could fund infrastructural developments themselves. But they can't because they don't have the infrastructure to create the oppurtunity to obtain airport charges. Its a chicken and egg situation.

Of course Dublin can fund the new runway themselves now..they are a very successful airport and more power to them..but who paid for the runway extensions over the years when they were required?

Aer Rianta has been funding itself since the 1960's.

Waterford is a victim of evolution in aviation.

No amount of runway extensions is going to change that.

hardybuck · 10-08-2016 1:44pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

If Waterford had airlines and passengers it too could fund infrastructural developments themselves. But they can't because they don't have the infrastructure to create the oppurtunity to obtain airport charges. Its a chicken and egg situation.

Of course Dublin can fund the new runway themselves now..they are a very successful airport and more power to them..but who paid for the runway extensions over the years when they were required?

You'll probably be aware that the DAA has a semi state company and has commercial mandate and it's been that way for some time. They've been going to the market with bond issues, gaining funds from the European Investment Bank et al for a long time now.

Waterford Airport is a PLC? However in the last five years it's received about €10m in different types of funding, it got €27.5m between 2007-2009 a further €10m more has been promised in the Programme for Government.

In addition, apparently there is another €28m set to be distributed to the four regional airports for capital investments between 2016-22.

That's a good bit of seed capital there by the looks of it if they want to go looking for other investors.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 2:03pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

Aer Rianta has been funding itself since the 1960's.

Aer Rianta was state owned. I'm not sure if that is correct that it has funded infrastructure itself entirely form its own resources.

Waterford is a victim of evolution in aviation.

Waterford doesn't have to be a victim of evolution in aviation. It just needs the same help Kerry and Knock got when funding they're runways!

It was state money that developed B737/A320 capable runways at all the main airports of Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Knock and Kerry. They're has been efforts for Waterford to get the same going back the last 20 years, we nearly got their in 2008. Hopefully we'll get there before its too late.

No amount of runway extensions is going to change that.

I disagree.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 2:11pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Waterford Airport is a PLC? However in the last five years it's received about €10m in different types of funding, it got €27.5m between 2007-2009 a further €10m more has been promised in the Programme for Government.

I think you may need to check your source. If we got the 27.5 million we would'nt be having this discussion!

In addition, apparently there is another €28m set to be distributed to the four regional airports for capital investments between 2016-22.

That's a good bit of seed capital there by the looks of it if they want to go looking for other investors.

Unfortunately none of that can be spent on the vital part of the jigsaw.

I'm sure if the government did decide a policy change and help fund the runway they wound no doubt demand private money to match it..and rightly so.

hardybuck · 10-08-2016 3:02pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

I think you may need to check your source. If we got the 27.5 million we would'nt be having this discussion!

Unfortunately none of that can be spent on the vital part of the jigsaw.

I'm sure if the government did decide a policy change and help fund the runway they wound no doubt demand private money to match it..and rightly so.

Two questions:
- How much came between 2007-09?
- What can the funding be spent on?

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 4:01pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Two questions:
- How much came between 2007-09?
- What can the funding be spent on?

The 27.5 million you refer to was a government grant approved in 2007 for the development of the airport including Runway and terminal extension, new hangarage and all associated works. It wasn't actually 27.5 million. It was 22.5 million with the remaining 5 million being raised by the airport themselves.

When the Celtic tiger came to a sudden stop. All capital projects in the country that had not gone to tender were postponed and eventually cancelled. We were basically victims of lousy timing!

Since then, due to the country having feck all money, Government changed its policy to only supporting the capital projects that are non commercial but still a requirement for safety or security purposes. These include things like Fire engines, x ray equipment, boundary fencing, runway end safety areas, navigation aids. None of these are cheap!

The airport has worked within these limitations over the past few years by drawing down whatever funding it could get (That means scrapping it out with the other regional airports for a piece of the pie) under the new remit to complete much of the work that the 27.5 million was to cover. So nearly all of the peripheral work is now complete. Land for runway extension is now cpo'd and secured, land graded (they moved an entire hill from one side of the runway) all new airfield lighting ducting for extension. New hockey stick boundary fence probably about 2-3 milies of it, and much more technical stuff that i wont go into.

So now rather than requiring 27.5 million, all that is required is 8-15 milion depending on how big you want to make the runway.

I don't know how much they received in 2007-2009, but it was probably the same amount they and the other regional airport received most years, at a guess 1.5 million, but that is purely an educated guess and could be off a little.

hardybuck · 10-08-2016 4:12pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

The 27.5 million you refer to was a government grant approved in 2007 for the development of the airport including Runway and terminal extension, new hangarage and all associated works. It wasn't actually 27.5 million. It was 22.5 million with the remaining 5 million being raised by the airport themselves.

When the Celtic tiger came to a sudden stop. All capital projects in the country that had not gone to tender were postponed and eventually cancelled. We were basically victims of lousy timing!

Since then, due to the country having feck all money, Government changed its policy to only supporting the capital projects that are non commercial but still a requirement for safety or security purposes. These include things like Fire engines, x ray equipment, boundary fencing, runway end safety areas, navigation aids. None of these are cheap!

The airport has worked within these limitations over the past few years by drawing down whatever funding it could get (That means scrapping it out with the other regional airports for a piece of the pie) under the new remit to complete much of the work that the 27.5 million was to cover. So nearly all of the peripheral work is now complete. Land for runway extension is now cpo'd and secured, land graded (they moved an entire hill from one side of the runway) all new airfield lighting ducting for extension. New hockey stick boundary fence probably about 2-3 milies of it, and much more technical stuff that i wont go into.

So now rather than requiring 27.5 million, all that is required is 8-15 milion depending on how big you want to make the runway.

I don't know how much they received in 2007-2009, but it was probably the same amount they and the other regional airport received most years, at a guess 1.5 million, but that is purely an educated guess and could be off a little.

So the proposed Capital Funding 2016-22 could be a runner for the runway? Depending on what portion of the pie they than can get?

reni10 · 10-08-2016 4:16pm

I always wondered why the various large Businesses in the South East do not club together to pledge some of the money for the runway extension as basically it is these people who are continually having to fly employees from Dublin of Cork at added expense so it would make sense that they contribute some money as a loan or investment in the Airport and then the infrastructure is built and the larger aircraft can then service the airport to see if it can indeed then function properly on its own feet...

JCX BXC · 10-08-2016 4:18pm

Why would Waterford survive even with a runway expansion?

Farrenfore would probably shut tomorrow without the PSO, and Knock has plenty of turboprop flights, something WAT cannot seem to hold onto.

LDY is a complete failure.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 4:32pm

hardybuck wrote: »

So the proposed Capital Funding 2016-22 could be a runner for the runway? Depending on what portion of the pie they than can get?

Only with a change of Government policy, that's where our esteemed political representatives come in. We are not the only airport looking for more funding for commercial projects, the other 3 airports supported by the regional airport programme of Knock, Kerry and to a much lesser extent Donegal also have the hand out. So maybe if there is enough pressure from all 3 at a political level then things may change but I can't see us getting funding without the other 2 screaming blue murder even though they have they're jet runway and are pushing on. It seems like the same old story with Waterford and the South East in general..we are paddy last playing catch up!

Yes you are correct it will be a pie, where all the airports will have to submit why they think they deserve it the most and then it will be sliced up. May not be able to much with our slice considering we require almost all of it to take us to the next level...viability..but we will wait and see!

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 4:39pm

reni10 wrote: »

I always wondered why the various large Businesses in the South East do not club together to pledge some of the money for the runway extension as basically it is these people who are continually having to fly employees from Dublin of Cork at added expense so it would make sense that they contribute some money as a loan or investment in the Airport and then the infrastructure is built and the larger aircraft can then service the airport to see if it can indeed then function properly on its own feet...

Govenment funding or not they will have to pony up some cash alright and I am sure they would be willing to but to ask them to fund the entire 8-15m is asking alot, especially as the other airports got significant government support for their runways. What I would see happenings is government pay half and private business pay half or something like a 75/25 split. You can be damn sure the government will not pay the full cost on their own and I wound not expect them to.

notharrypotter · 10-08-2016 4:53pm

reni10 wrote: »

I always wondered why the various large Businesses in the South East do not club together to pledge some of the money for the runway extension as basically it is these people who are continually having to fly employees from Dublin of Cork at added expense so it would make sense that they contribute some money as a loan or investment in the Airport and then the infrastructure is built and the larger aircraft can then service the airport to see if it can indeed then function properly on its own feet...

and

they will have to pony up some cash alright and I am sure they would be willing to but to ask them to fund the entire 8-15m

No commercial sense for any local business to invest as they would get no return on their investment.

If they want to give money away I will happily send them my bank details.

It is far more cost effective to send the employees to Cork/Dublin/Shannon.

Remember Ireland is a small country with a small population.

Figures of population numbers in SE/NW/S/W constantly get mentioned as "catchment" for the local airport.
The reality is that many population centres get counted twice depending on what extent of gerrymandering is been used.

Take Kilkenny for example.
The SE will claim it as part of their catchment but most people from Kilkenny metropolis will simply travel to Dublin as its far easier to access.
Kilkenny castle to Dublin airport is 1 hour 25min using the M9.
Kilkenny castle to Waterford airport is 49 min using the M9.
35 minutes is noting to most people travelling.

Ireland has a surplus of airports.
Waterford has a role but beyond a niche it will not be a major force.
Quite simply the demand is not there.

Investment in a runway extension will not bring any significant commercial operations.

Masala · 10-08-2016 4:55pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

Govenment funding or not they will have to pony up some cash alright and I am sure they would be willing to but to ask them to fund the entire 8-15m is asking alot, especially as the other airports got significant government support for their runways. What I would see happenings is government pay half and private business pay half or something like a 75/25 split. You can be damn sure the government will not pay the full cost on their own and I wound not expect them to.

The Govt has to be conscious of EU policy and there are clear EU Directives to stop supports that could be used to distort local competition. Also the EU so not see the benefit in increasing the size of Airport 'A' when airport 'B' is underutilized down the road.

Finally - the Govt are not going to grant aid projects of a commercial basis. Extending a runway to handle Ryanair aircraft is not a safety issue. Its a commercial decision.. No more than asking the Govt to grant aid a new Restaurant in the airport..... if the airport feels that it can make more money with a bigger runway / restaurant - then it should be financed like all other business initiatives. It will have to go to the bank, so a share drive, invest its own cash etc..

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 4:56pm

The Search and rescue Helicopter facility at Waterford is their PSO. It contributes a significant amount to the airports revenue stream from Hangarage rental, fuel sales, landing fees, outside hours charges. Thats your base then add proper sustainable passengers services on top of that plus your general aviation activities and you have a viable model.

It would survive because it would reduce or hopefully limit the Operational support required to a minimum whilst contributing significantly to the region by increasing business and leisure visitors who will help the region to prosper economically and thus be seen as value for money. Airports have to be seen as more than just stand alone commercial enterprises and instead seen as transport infrastructure the same way as roads, rail, bridges, ports. I believe that all the airports should be state owned and supported. Why should the Midwest and South West have state owned and supported airports while the West and South East regions don't. That's not going to change its just my opinion.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Why would Waterford survive even with a runway expansion?

Farrenfore would probably shut tomorrow without the PSO, and Knock has plenty of turboprop flights, something WAT cannot seem to hold onto.

LDY is a complete failure.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 5:18pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

and
No commercial sense for any local business to invest as they would get no return on their investment.

You are correct. That is why it is so hard to get private investment as they will probably never get a return. Airports are not gold mines. As i said they should be seen as transport infrastructure benefitting the whole region and driving economic development.

Figures of population numbers in SE/NW/S/W constantly get mentioned as "catchment" for the local airport.
The reality is that many population centres get counted twice depending on what extent of gerrymandering is been used.

The population of the South East region is about 500,000. Looking at a map of Ireland i'd say about 450,000 would have Waterford as they're closest airport. Also you could probably stretch furthur up the motorway towards Dublin and pick up nice trade from people who wish to avoid the stress of travelling through Dublin both to the airport and through the airport.

Take Kilkenny for example.
The SE will claim it as part of their catchment but most people from Kilkenny metropolis will simply travel to Dublin as its far easier to access.
Kilkenny castle to Dublin airport is 1 hour 25min using the M9.
Kilkenny castle to Waterford airport is 49 min using the M9.
35 minutes is noting to most people travelling.

How is Dublin far easier to access? As you have said Waterford is 35 minutes closer, its motorway to both but I think I'd prefer navigating the outer ring road at waterford than the M50 anyday. Plus 35 minutes is still 35 minutes why waste it if you could get the same fare at each location?

Ireland has a surplus of airports.
Waterford has a role but beyond a niche it will not be a major force.
Quite simply the demand is not there.

It does'nt have to be a major force..just viable by serving the South East region rather than not offering anything at all.

Investment in a runway extension will not bring any significant commercial operations.

I disagree

Nobody is saying it will be the next Heathrow. Just comparable to Kerry or Knock.

Teebor15 · 10-08-2016 5:40pm

Masala wrote: »

Finally - the Govt are not going to grant aid projects of a commercial basis. Extending a runway to handle Ryanair aircraft is not a safety issue. Its a commercial decision.. No more than asking the Govt to grant aid a new Restaurant in the airport..... if the airport feels that it can make more money with a bigger runway / restaurant - then it should be financed like all other business initiatives. It will have to go to the bank, so a share drive, invest its own cash etc..

Sorry I should have made it more clear. If there is a change in government policy then thats how i would see it playing out, a 50/50 or 75/25 type public/private deal.

The other airports had their Jet runways part funded by the government. Think its only fair the South East should be too. We are not asking for anything extra just the same.

Masala · 10-08-2016 5:55pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

The other airports had their Jet runways part funded by the government. Think its only fair the South East should be too. We are not asking for anything extra just the same.

aaahhh....the old days!!! That was then!! This is now!!

That was before the EU took any interest in how the Govt spent its money.
That famous night in Sept 2008 when Brian Cowen woke up Brian Lenihan in the middle of the night and said ....' ya better get over here - we could have a bit of a problem. But don't worry -we should be ok! €4 billion should get us out of it..." changed it all for everyone.

Max Powers · 10-08-2016 6:55pm

Masala wrote: »

aaahhh....the old days!!! That was then!! This is now!!

That was before the EU took any interest in how the Govt spent its money.
That famous night in Sept 2008 when Brian Cowen woke up Brian Lenihan in the middle of the night and said ....' ya better get over here - we could have a bit of a problem. But don't worry -we should be ok! €4 billion should get us out of it..." changed it all for everyone.

Aren't the govt agency DAA being funded tens of millions for another Dublin runway.?

Waterford Airport.

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