Waterford Airport.

dzilla

Dum_Dum wrote: »

notharrypotter wrote: »

The crux of the matter is the price people are willing to pay.

€14.99 each way to Britain and a bit more to Barcelona/Rome/Amsterdam et al. This is what the rest of the country pays from their local airports.

Thats rubbish.

Squidvicious

b757 wrote: »

We're not looking for Ryanair style pricing, even Aer Lingus doesn't even offer prices that cheaply. People have to stop hoping for Ryanair to come back - its never going to happen (at least not in the next 5+ years).

I'd happily pay ~€60-100 one way, depending on the date for the privilege of flying from the airport 15 minutes away by road. Flybe was around €30 (minimum) back when they were offering BHX & MAN.

We'll find out soon anyway.

I would be delighted to see London flights return and the local airport really deserves our support. Like you, I'm happy to pay extra for the convenience and I suspect that most others locally are too, especially when you factor in travel and parking expenses saved.

The problem is that the above really only applies to those of us in the immediate vicinity of the airport. If you're living in Kilkenny or Dungarvan, the convenience factor is lessened so you're far more likely to be swayed by cheaper flights from Dublin or Cork and Waterford needs to sway those punters if it's going to become a properly viable operation..

The shame of it is that the airport wasn't built in a more central location in the South-East to enable it to be more of a regional airport. This is not meant by any means as a criticism of those behind the airport or it's construction. If it weren't for them, there would be no airport at all in the South-East so fair play to them. However, the location of the airport is another sign of how we can't seem to combine together here in the South-East.

gw80

Squidvicious wrote: »

I would be delighted to see London flights return and the local airport really deserves our support. Like you, I'm happy to pay extra for the convenience and I suspect that most others locally are too, especially when you factor in travel and parking expenses saved.

The problem is that the above really only applies to those of us in the immediate vicinity of the airport. If you're living in Kilkenny or Dungarvan, the convenience factor is lessened so you're far more likely to be swayed by cheaper flights from Dublin or Cork and Waterford needs to sway those punters if it's going to become a properly viable operation..

The shame of it is that the airport wasn't built in a more central location in the South-East to enable it to be more of a regional airport. This is not meant by any means as a criticism of those behind the airport or it's construction. If it weren't for them, there would be no airport at all in the South-East so fair play to them. However, the location of the airport is another sign of how we can't seem to combine together here in the South-East.

And where would you suggest, let me guess, Kilkenny.
what about the coast guard, isn't it better that is on the coast,
I suspect even cheaper flights wouldn't be enough to get some people to support Waterford airport

road_high

gw80 wrote: »

And where would you suggest, let me guess, Kilkenny.
what about the coast guard, isn't it better that is on the coast,
I suspect even cheaper flights wouldn't be enough to get some people to support Waterford airport

WAT airport is a joke (hence no services) and that why hardly anyone outside of Waterford or south Kk bothers- for a whole 20 mins extra you can be in Dublin airport with its whole plethora of cheap flights, destinations and proper planes. The market has well and truly spoken and that's why it's been an utter failure. It's completely inconvenient and uncentral location just one if the nails in it's coffin. The M9 motorway should have helped it but instead made it even worse.
It's laughable that you think it should be some kind of charity case thats an obligation on the SE to support.

gw80

road_high wrote: »

WAT airport is a joke (hence no services) and that why hardly anyone outside of Waterford or south Kk bothers- for a whole 20 mins extra you can be in Dublin airport with its whole plethora of cheap flights, destinations and proper planes. The market has well and truly spoken and that's why it's been an utter failure. It's completely inconvenient and uncentral location just one if the nails in it's coffin. The M9 motorway should have helped it but instead made it even worse.
It's laughable that you think it should be some kind of charity case thats an obligation on the SE to support.

My point proven

road_high

gw80 wrote: »

My point proven

So you agree that WAT is irrelevant then?

dzilla

gw80 wrote: »

Squidvicious wrote: »

I would be delighted to see London flights return and the local airport really deserves our support. Like you, I'm happy to pay extra for the convenience and I suspect that most others locally are too, especially when you factor in travel and parking expenses saved.

The problem is that the above really only applies to those of us in the immediate vicinity of the airport. If you're living in Kilkenny or Dungarvan, the convenience factor is lessened so you're far more likely to be swayed by cheaper flights from Dublin or Cork and Waterford needs to sway those punters if it's going to become a properly viable operation..

The shame of it is that the airport wasn't built in a more central location in the South-East to enable it to be more of a regional airport. This is not meant by any means as a criticism of those behind the airport or it's construction. If it weren't for them, there would be no airport at all in the South-East so fair play to them. However, the location of the airport is another sign of how we can't seem to combine together here in the South-East.

And where would you suggest, let me guess, Kilkenny.
what about the coast guard, isn't it better that is on the coast,
I suspect even cheaper flights wouldn't be enough to get some people to support Waterford airport

Squidvisious has a fair point to be fair, it wasnt a critism. Waterford Airport really isn't competitive beyond Dungarvan, Kilkenny and Carrick the M8 brings Tipp to Cork Airport and The M9 Kilkenny to Dublin.  
I think that there is a market for flights to London/Birmingham/Manchester/Edinburgh and maybe Amsterdam every other day and that really is all the South east would need in my view. The airport is a victim of the shortage or aircraft around at the moment and the lack of air lines using the Props and RJ45s that can land in WAT.
Definitely agree that even if we had cheap flights (circa 80€) local people still would go to Cork and Dublin to save 7 or 8€ after other expenses taken into account.

road_high

dzilla wrote: »

Squidvisious has a fair point to be fair, it wasnt a critism. Waterford Airport really isn't competitive beyond Dungarvan, Kilkenny and Carrick the M8 brings Tipp to Cork Airport and The M9 Kilkenny to Dublin.  
I think that there is a market for flights to London/Birmingham/Manchester/Edinburgh and maybe Amsterdam every other day and that really is all the South east would need in my view. The airport is a victim of the shortage or aircraft around at the moment and the lack of air lines using the Props and RJ45s that can land in WAT.
Definitely agree that even if we had cheap flights (circa 80€) local people still would go to Cork and Dublin to save 7 or 8€ after other expenses taken into account.

Also read some place the parking was pretty expensive. When you want to reel more passengers in, ripping them off on parking charges is a no no.
Tipperary is very near Shannon also. West Waterford is a breeze to cork.

gw80

road_high wrote: »

So you agree that WAT is irrelevant then?

Not the point I was referring to (as well you know)😉
I don't think the people who,s lives have been saved by the air rescue service would consider it irrelevant

gw80

road_high wrote: »

So you agree that WAT is irrelevant then?

Not the point I was referring to (as well you know)😉
I don't think the people who,s lives have been saved by the air rescue service would consider it irrelevant

road_high

gw80 wrote: »

Not the point I was referring to (as well you know)😉
I don't think the people who,s lives have been saved by the air rescue service would consider it irrelevant

What point were you trying to make as I've no idea?

Air rescue base is a completely different matter, it's a state emergency service that is a necessity.
Unlike the "commercial" (I use the term lightly) flights side of the airport which has failed the test of the market over and over and over (how many different airlines have tried and failed to make a go of it?). The travelling public use Cork or Dublin as this is where the market dictates demand to be.

JMT2016

Squidvicious wrote: »

The problem is that the above really only applies to those of us in the immediate vicinity of the airport. If you're living in Kilkenny or Dungarvan, the convenience factor is lessened so you're far more likely to be swayed by cheaper flights from Dublin or Cork and Waterford needs to sway those punters if it's going to become a properly viable operation..

I think it is clear that Waterford Airport isn't trying to compete with Dublin or Cork airports. It has several roles including catering for private aircraft and being a hub for the Irish Coast Guard. At only 11 mins from Waterford it is in the perfect location to be the regional airport and perform its other roles.

For commercial flights, its unique selling point is to provide simple, hassle free and convenient travel to London (primarily) for the business community in the region.

Here's a table of some hubs around the region showing the significant time savings to travel for both Cork and Dublin airports. In many cases there are significant savings to both airports.

And this is only the time saving getting to the airport. We all know with Dublin airport that there is a significant time spent within the airport as well.

And let's not forget how expensive the hidden costs at Dublin airport are as well: Just look at this thread to get an idea of what people are doing to avoid the savage parking fees there. And that's before the M50 toll*2 that people might forget about!

Commercial flights to London from Waterford are a "commercially viable operation" because to the people who fly frequently in the region - it actually makes sense!

Core Area
Location|Time to Wd Airport|Time to Dublin|Time Saved |Time to Cork|Time Saved
Waterford City|11 mins|1 hr 57 mins|1 hr 46 mins|1 hr 51 mins|1 hr 40 mins
New Ross|33 mins|1 hr 50 mins|1 hr 17 mins|1 hr 57 mins|1 hr 24 mins
Wexford|1 hr 10 mins|1 hr 51 mins|41 mins|2 hr 39 mins|1 hr 29 mins
Thomastown|43 mins|1 hr 33 mins|50 mins|2 hrs| 1 hr 17 mins
Enniscorthy|1 hr 4 mins|1 hr 37 mins|33 mins|2 hr 29 mins|1 hr 25 mins
Kilkenny|49 mins|1 hr 24 mins|35 mins|1 hr 47 mins| 58 mins
Dungarvan|45 mins|2 hr 13 min|1 hr 28 mins|1 hr 7 mins|22 mins
Clonmel|56 mins|2 hr 1 min|1 hr 5 mins|1 hr 12 mins|16 mins

JMT2016

road_high wrote: »

why hardly anyone outside of Waterford or south Kk bothers- for a whole 20 mins extra you can be in Dublin airport

20 mins?

Please see table in my post.

JMT2016

dzilla wrote: »

Squidvisious has a fair point to be fair, it wasnt a critism. Waterford Airport really isn't competitive beyond Dungarvan, Kilkenny and Carrick the M8 brings Tipp to Cork Airport and The M9 Kilkenny to Dublin.  

And wexford? See the table in my post.

dzilla

road_high wrote: »

gw80 wrote: »

Not the point I was referring to  (as well you know)😉
I don't think the people who,s lives have been saved by the air rescue service would consider it  irrelevant

What point were you trying to make as I've no idea?

 flights side of the airport which has failed the test of the market over and over and over (how many different airlines have tried and failed to make a go of it?)

Not entirely true, the failure of the routes offered by the airlines wasn't to do with WAT or the market more to do with the airlines themselves -

EuroCeltic went bust more or less after plane damaged beyond repair in Sligo Airport
Aer Arann / Aerlingus Regional had a good thing at WAT, lasting  about 9 years if I recall correctly, unfortunately, with the Aer Lingus regional franchise they dictated a change in route pattern meaning they needed a 70 seater aircraft at Cork, this meant Waterfords plane went to Cork

Flybe cut Waterford because the planes needed to be repositioned to service their ideas of Dublin to London City which failed miserably and the second plane that was used @ Waterford was used to fill a more lucrative route from Exeter to Malaga when the economy picked up and more people started going on holidays over there

VLM just went out of business, nothing to do with WAT

All the above air lines experienced adecquate to very good loads at Waterford, it was just they had their own issues and WAT ultimately suffered as a result

gw80

JMT2016 wrote: »

And wexford? See the table in my post.

and the new bridge will make it easier again

road_high

dzilla wrote: »

Not entirely true, the failure of the routes offered by the airlines wasn't to do with WAT or the market more to do with the airlines themselves -

EuroCeltic went bust more or less after plane damaged beyond repair in Sligo Airport
Aer Arann / Aerlingus Regional had a good thing at WAT, lasting  about 9 years if I recall correctly, unfortunately, with the Aer Lingus regional franchise they dictated a change in route pattern meaning they needed a 70 seater aircraft at Cork, this meant Waterfords plane went to Cork

Flybe cut Waterford because the planes needed to be repositioned to service their ideas of Dublin to London City which failed miserably and the second plane that was used @ Waterford was used to fill a more lucrative route from Exeter to Malaga when the economy picked up and more people started going on holidays over there

VLM just went out of business, nothing to do with WAT

All the above air lines experienced adecquate to very good loads at Waterford, it was just they had their own issues and WAT ultimately suffered as a result

Believe me, these companies exist to make cash. If WAT were profitable, they'd be flocking there. Surely if the loadings were good, there'd be queue to replace them.

JMT2016

road_high wrote: »

Believe me, these companies exist to make cash. If WAT were profitable, they'd be flocking there. Surely if the loadings were good, there'd be queue to replace them.

And that's where the runway length comes in again. The size of the runway limits the pool of potential operators. It needs investment to expand operations.

But if you read the news&star this week you would see that it is the business community in the region who are doing the running here. They have repeatedly sourced providers for the airport and by the looks of things have done so successfully again.

dzilla

Why in Gods name is the News and Star website not carrying this story.

road_high

JMT2016 wrote: »

And that's where the runway length comes in again. The size of the runway limits the pool of potential operators. It needs investment to expand operations.

But if you read the news&star this week you would see that it is the business community in the region who are doing the running here. They have repeatedly sourced providers for the airport and by the looks of things have done so successfully again.

I'd love to see a proper airport in the SE and I actually agree with you believe it or not, and think it could be a success if it had the options (or some of the options) of neighbours Dublin.
How much would the runway cost the taxpayer is my next question? Could it be funded some other way? Like Knock was.....
Because I loathe those small commuter planes, had a very bad experience landing in a storm in one and I'd be very hesitant of flying in one again.

I think there will be objection from Cork though and possibly Dublin as it would eating into their hinterlands. I'd imagine there has been from Cork already...?

JMT2016

road_high wrote: »

I'd love to see a proper airport in the SE and I actually agree with you believe it or not, and think it could be a success if it had the options (or some of the options) of neighbours Dublin.
How much would the runway cost the taxpayer is my next question? Could it be funded some other way? Like Knock was.....
Because I loathe those small commuter planes, had a very bad experience landing in a storm in one and I'd be very hesitant of flying in one again.

I think there will be objection from Cork though and possibly Dublin as it would eating into their hinterlands. I'd imagine there has been from Cork already...?

I think there was a cost-benefit analysis done - if I can find it I will link to it.

But yes there'll be the turf wars, as usual, holding development back.

All you need do is look at the fuss over Cork getting trans-atlantic flights because it might affect Shannon even though it is 2 hrs away via one of the worst national roads in the country :rolleyes:

fr336

Excuse my potential naivity, but didn't LTN-WAT work well for years with Aer Arrann / Aer Lingus Regional and the only reason it was pulled after so many years (I remember it was in place for a long time) was because Stobart took over and moved it to SEN to cater for their own business interests i.e. that they owned SEN too? So I'm not sure what those crowing about how poor WAT appararently is are talking about, for some reason that route (and others) worked well in the past but haven't been able to work again since for various reasons. But if you just took some people on this thread's word for it WAT doesn't work, and has never worked...hmm

road_high

JMT2016 wrote: »

I think there was a cost-benefit analysis done - if I can find it I will link to it.

But yes there'll be the turf wars, as usual, holding development back.

All you need do is look at the fuss over Cork getting trans-atlantic flights because it might affect Shannon even though it is 2 hrs away via one of the worst national roads in the country :rolleyes:

Your journey times were interesting as I'd assumed WAT was a good hour away. The plane type is probably my biggest issue with WAT I I'm honest, if say Ryanair were flying out of it then of course I'd use as would a hell of a lot more around the south east and further up the east coast quite frankly.

Well on that I'd have built Cork airport in Mallow or Charleville or some place half way that could adequately serve both such is life and we have what we have now. Though I can imagine Cork city would want it's "own" airport as they do most things.
Has any one considered local industry funding part of the runway? Thinking the likes of Glanbia, Bosch and Lomb etc?
How much can some extra tarmac and lighting really cost...?

road_high

fr336 wrote: »

Excuse my potential naivity, but didn't LTN-WAT work well for years with Aer Arrann / Aer Lingus Regional and the only reason it was pulled after so many years (I remember it was in place for a long time) was because Stobart took over and moved it to SEN to cater for their own business interests i.e. that they owned SEN too? So I'm not sure what those crowing about how poor WAT appararently is are talking about, for some reason that route (and others) worked well in the past but haven't been able to work again since for various reasons. But if you just took some people on this thread's word for it WAT doesn't work, and has never worked...hmm

I've been dismissive of WAT but from looking and reading these thread I can be persuaded of it's merit. From listening to what people are actually saying it seems the runway length is a big issue in so far as it greatly limits destinations and airlines/types of plane. So it's stuck in a kind of catch 22. The airport seemed quite well run and the management worked hard to promote it. So no issue there...

Masala

road_high wrote: »

I'd love to see a proper airport in the SE and I actually agree with you believe it or not, and think it could be a success if it had the options (or some of the options) of neighbours Dublin.
How much would the runway cost the taxpayer is my next question? Could it be funded some other way? Like Knock was.....
Because I loathe those small commuter planes, had a very bad experience landing in a storm in one and I'd be very hesitant of flying in one again.

I think there will be objection from Cork though and possibly Dublin as it would eating into their hinterlands. I'd imagine there has been from Cork already...?

That was then.... this is now!!! Alot has changed since then and now we in the EU....big brother is watching and there would be no way that State support would be allowed towards runway expansion especially with Cork being so under-utilized.

Also - EU not happy seeing State being used to move traffic from one airport to another (which is what will happen for Year 1 at least if FR wants to play off Cork and Shannon).

Michael O'Leary summed it up once... Bristol airport server a population of 12m people - Ireland has 7 operating airport serving 4.5m population.

road_high

Masala wrote: »

That was then.... this is now!!! Alot has changed since then and now we in the EU....big brother is watching and there would be no way that State support would be allowed towards runway expansion especially with Cork being so under-utilized.

Also - EU not happy seeing State being used to move traffic from one airport to another (which is what will happen for Year 1 at least if FR wants to play off Cork and Shannon).

Michael O'Leary summed it up once... Bristol airport server a population of 12m people - Ireland has 7 operating airport serving 4.5m population.

Where's the 12 m around Bristol? You've got Birmingham, Cardiff and even Heathrow in that vicinity so I doubt it serves 12million, that's quite a rural part of England.
But if it were funded privately then how could there be an issue. How much would it cost? I understand that this scenario of course may not be viable, I'm merely putting it out there for discussion.

Masala

road_high wrote: »

Where's the 12 m around Bristol? You've got Birmingham, Cardiff and even Heathrow in that vicinity so I doubt it serves 12million, that's quite a rural part of England.
But if it were funded privately then how could there be an issue. How much would it cost? I understand that this scenario of course may not be viable, I'm merely putting it out there for discussion.

Bristol Airport looks to break the 10 million passenger mark and builds to achieve it
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > Bristol Airport looks to break the 10 million passenger mark and builds to achieve it
19-Dec-2015

Yes ...private investment is no issue if it can be found

road_high

Masala wrote: »

Yes ...private investment is no issue if it can be found

The only precedent I can think of is Knock but that was a different time and emigration was so much more of an issue there as was access. We can get to Dublin or Cork in an hour or two plus numerous buses each hour to DUB.
Private funding is probably optimistic in WAT, though you may muster a bit among business...though I can imagine when you ask to put money where mouths are into something potentially risky, the answer you may get.

dzilla

Speaking of private investment is there any news on the local investors lookin at getting the service to luton going?

road_high

dzilla wrote: »

Speaking of private investment is there any news on the local investors lookin at getting the service to luton going?

Were they approaching potential airlines?