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Irish martial arts body opposes recognition of MMA

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    #92
    MagicIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭MagicIRL


    Why are grounded strikes allowed in MMA?

    Simple; because mixed martial arts allows any technique (within reason) to be applied to win the fight. Simply downing an opponent does not end the fight, especially when there is an entire fighting style (Brazilian Jiu-jitsu) based on ground attacks and submissions.

    If the fighter does not intelligently defend themselves while grounded, the fight is stopped. I see a lot of posters referencing both the UFC and fighter deaths. You can go through the entire history of the UFC. You will not find a death inside the cage.

    Also, a small side note: UFC is a brand, a league. Think Premier League/La Liga in Football. MMA is the Sport. Like Football.


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    #93
    mansize
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    Bambi wrote: »
    Only when someone who hasn't a notion what they're on about decides to just wade in anyway with standard interwebz rebuttal #4.

    Well you just throw out clichés like SJW sure to impress people


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    #94
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Ush1 wrote: »
    You've lost me here, surely the point of a "form" is to use it in a fight rather than to get some grading?

    Kata is used for grading as it shows discipline in learning a style and being able to execute a move with perfect balance and timing. It's not solely about fighting!


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    #95
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    the Aldo chap was knocked out stone cold and Mcgregor jumped on top of him and landed two vicious punches to the head of his unconscious opponent. Vile stuff.

    Absolutely beautiful to watch the feint,the punch
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #96
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,648 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am no expert but surely this is the issue, and surely this is why many people consider the 'sport' to be dubious (and compare it to dog fighting)?

    It is called 'mixed martial arts' but I am not sure which martial art allows a punch in the head of a grounded opponent, perhaps one of the MMA supporters on this thread can tell me?

    No surprise at all that IMAC want nothing to do with it.
    Boxing, kickboxing, muay thai all allow you to punch someone so hard in the head you can kill them, judo and sambo allow you to break someone's arm or choke them unconscious, put them all together in one sport though and suddenly it becomes too brutal


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    #97
    mansize
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Boxing, kickboxing, muay thai all allow you to punch someone so hard in the head you can kill them, judo and sambo allow you to break someone's arm or choke them unconscious, put them all together in one sport though and suddenly it becomes too brutal

    In boxing a fight should be stopped if the opponent is stuck with a strong blow that affects cognitive behaviour


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    #98
    That_Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    How can I, er, put this politely. I’ve noticed that the most ardent fans of this nasty spectacle tend to be young men who haven’t seen the inside of a gym themselves in quite some time. They might be better served going for a jog than spending so much time on the Internet attempting to defend a nasty spectacle that involves thuggish young men attempting to kick each other in the face.

    The lads who created UFC must be laughing all the way to the bank. Making a fortune by appealing to a vulgar and base bloodlust amongst their increasingly disenfranchised fanbase.

    Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.


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    #99
    wintear
    Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭wintear


    A number of factors maybe behind the opposition.

    Like a number of gyms there are question marks around certain MMA clubs being used for laundering money.

    Outside bjj gyms are there any organised grading systems for MMA? This may hamper acceptance into IMAC.

    As with all martial arts the aim is acceptance into the Olympics, it maybe the case that it is felt association with MMA may hamper these ambitions.

    Are coaches Garda vetted as required by the government and the sports council?

    Lots of reasons not really covered in the rte article.


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    #100
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    smash wrote: »
    Maybe it's because traditional martial arts usually contain form and fight. Students are graded and judged on both aspects. MMA removes form and concentrates on fight.

    Proof is in this thread where a few posters now have branded traditional martial arts "fancy/cute dancing". This shows a lack of respect for the arts in themselves and if that's the attitude then why would the Irish martial arts body want these people to become a part of their organisation?

    Can you explain how form and fight are seperated in a martial art?

    If form is truly important for anything more than the aesthetic, how is it removed from MMA? If you don't nail the form, your fighting won't be as effective, in MMA that means you pay with your own body for not being as good as the other guy. Fighting in MMA exposes all the weaknesses of any one martial art more than ever and in doing so probably throws some long held notions about what is correct and effective within that martial art out the window. I suspect the truly effective 'forms' are not as pretty as what people thought they were.


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    #101
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    wintear wrote: »
    A number of factors maybe behind the opposition.

    Like a number of gyms there are question marks around certain MMA clubs being used for laundering money.

    Outside bjj gyms are there any organised grading systems for MMA? This may hamper acceptance into IMAC.

    As with all martial arts the aim is acceptance into the Olympics, it maybe the case that it is felt association with MMA may hamper these ambitions.

    Are coaches Garda vetted as required by the government and the sports council?

    Lots of reasons not really covered in the rte article.

    According to who exactly are you basing these claims off
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #102
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    wintear wrote: »
    A number of factors maybe behind the opposition.

    Like a number of gyms there are question marks around certain MMA clubs being used for laundering money.

    Outside bjj gyms are there any organised grading systems for MMA? This may hamper acceptance into IMAC.

    As with all martial arts the aim is acceptance into the Olympics, it maybe the case that it is felt association with MMA may hamper these ambitions.

    Are coaches Garda vetted as required by the government and the sports council?

    Lots of reasons not really covered in the rte article.

    The opposition to MMA was in place long before any MMA gyms that had undesirables involved cropped up

    Most martial arts aren't angling for acceptance into the Olympics.


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    #103
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    smash wrote: »
    Kata is used for grading as it shows discipline in learning a style and being able to execute a move with perfect balance and timing. It's not solely about fighting!

    So....... a dance recital then?


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    #104
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,648 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    mansize wrote: »
    In boxing a fight should be stopped if the opponent is stuck with a strong blow that affects cognitive behaviour
    Which is the same in mma, but it can happen once you allow blows to the head


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    #105
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    lawlolawl wrote: »
    So....... a dance recital then?

    Yeah, quite often


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    #106
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    smash wrote: »
    Kata is used for grading as it shows discipline in learning a style and being able to execute a move with perfect balance and timing.....

    ....for fighting! Otherwise what's the point?


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    #107
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    Ush1 wrote: »
    ....for fighting! Otherwise what's the point?

    To audition for the next Step Up movie.


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    #108
    Rumpy Pumpy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭Rumpy Pumpy


    I think some of the more ardent defenders of this spectacle need to take off the sunglasses of delusion and take a good hard look at reality. This is little more than pit fighting and their need to watch it is driven by the same sort of desensitisation that has led to an explosion in increasingly violent and disturbing pornography.


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    #109
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    I think some of the more ardent defenders of this spectacle need to take off the sunglasses of delusion and take a good hard look at reality. This is little more than pit fighting and their need to watch it is driven by the same sort of desensitisation that has led to an explosion in increasingly violent and disturbing pornography.

    you're keeping tabs on that for us, right? :P


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    #110
    Aongus Von Bismarck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    All anyone needs to look at to get an insight in to this bloodsport is the multitudes of amateur mobile phone videos that came out after the tragic death of Carvalho in April this year.

    Angry young men baying for blood. Cheering and celebrating as a man was literally being killed in the cage. The dog fighting metaphor is more than apt.


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    #111
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    Can you explain how form and fight are seperated in a martial art?
    There's a high percentage of martial arts that you can train in without being forced to fight. With most styles of Karate you can enter competitions for Kata displays without engaging in sparring. In MMA you can't do this.
    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    If form is truly important for anything more than the aesthetic, how is it removed from MMA?
    I didn't say it was removed, I said you're not graded on it.
    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    If you don't nail the form, your fighting won't be as effective, in MMA that means you pay with your own body for not being as good as the other guy. Fighting in MMA exposes all the weaknesses of any one martial art more than ever and in doing so probably throws some long held notions about what is correct and effective within that martial art out the window. I suspect the truly effective 'forms' are not as pretty as what people thought they were.
    Like I said, it's not all about fighting. Kata's are taught in order to promote discipline both in mental and physical form.
    lawlolawl wrote: »
    So....... a dance recital then?
    And there's the lack of respect again.


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    #112
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    All anyone needs to look at to get an insight in to this bloodsport is the multitudes of amateur mobile phone videos that came out after the tragic death of Carvalho in April this year.

    Angry young men baying for blood. Cheering and celebrating as a man was literally being killed in the cage. The dog fighting metaphor is more than apt.

    Yeah because it was an audience of clairvoyants who knew that the guy was going to die a few hours later so they had to get it on camera.


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    #113
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Their reasoning is pretty sound tbh. The arts represented by this body don't put any stock in hitting your opponent as hard as you can, or injuring them. In fact, in some of them using excessive force (i.e. more than is necessary to demonstrate you've gotten past your opponent's guard) is likely to have you DQed from a match.

    The sports they represent award points for intelligent movement - defeating your opponent by misdirecting them, spotting gaps in their defence or otherwise intellectually besting them. They do not encourage defeating opponents through sheer force and power. That's not the aim of their sports.

    From the point of view of the IMAC, they are like target shooting, where you use skill, care and precision to demonstrate your prowess in an elegant manner.

    Whereas MMA is more like pulling out a minigun and obliterating the target. Both are comparable in that the target gets hit, but otherwise neither are comparable as sports.


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    #114
    mansize
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Which is the same in mma, but it can happen once you allow blows to the head

    You cannot strike an opponent on the ground in boxing


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    #115
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    smash wrote: »
    And there's the lack of respect again.

    Hey now, I respect a good dance routine as much as the next man.


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    #116
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Could they not just introduce a token hare to the gory melee so they could be represented by the Irish Coursing Club?


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    #117
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    lawlolawl wrote: »
    Hey now, I respect a good dance routine as much as the next man.

    Can you see the issues that IMAC might have with MMA when this is the attitude that it's supporters are bringing to the table?


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    #118
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    seamus wrote: »
    Their reasoning is pretty sound tbh. The arts represented by this body don't put any stock in hitting your opponent as hard as you can, or injuring them. In fact, in some of them using excessive force (i.e. more than is necessary to demonstrate you've gotten past your opponent's guard) is likely to have you DQed from a match.

    The sports they represent award points for intelligent movement - defeating your opponent by misdirecting them, spotting gaps in their defence or otherwise intellectually besting them. They do not encourage defeating opponents through sheer force and power. That's not the aim of their sports.

    From the point of view of the IMAC, they are like target shooting, where you use skill, care and precision to demonstrate your prowess in an elegant manner.

    Whereas MMA is more like pulling out a minigun and obliterating the target. Both are comparable in that the target gets hit, but otherwise neither are comparable as sports.

    LOL, yeah sure, the strongest guy in mma always wins. The guys with good technique and skill are just wasting their time.

    Maybe learn something about the sport you are trying to discredit.


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    #119
    HardenendMan
    Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    If it such an unsafe sport then how come the largest platform, the UFC, doesn't have any deaths?

    I think softy folk in here just think it's barbaric because they can't imagine being able to compete relatively safely at such a sport. Rugby, horse riding etc are far more dangerous.


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    #120
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    HardenendMan wrote: »
    If it such an unsafe sport then how come the largest platform, the UFC, doesn't have any deaths?

    It does. A simple google search would have told you that. But that's not what the thread is about.


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    #121
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I've no problem with MMA being regulated and recognised as a sport. I do have trouble figuring out why IMAC should have to bring it under its umbrella.


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