Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

kksaints · 07-08-2016 09:11PM

One thing I noticed the last few times Ive seen Kilkenny play is that Cody doesnt really use the bench very much. I could be wrong but in the last two matches he has only used two subs in each. It worked against Galway but leaving Power on for the full 70 was a strange choice today.

kk.man · 07-08-2016 09:41PM

kksaints wrote: »

One thing I noticed the last few times Ive seen Kilkenny play is that Cody doesnt really use the bench very much. I could be wrong but in the last two matches he has only used two subs in each. It worked against Galway but leaving Power on for the full 70 was a strange choice today.

We don't have a bench..unless John Walsh is added

amber69 · 07-08-2016 09:45PM

kk.man wrote: »

We don't have a bench..unless John Walsh is added

Larkin and Lester to start instead of Jon jo and John power. Waterford were very good but we looked rusty. If we are beaten next week we'll have no excuses.

Philip82 · 07-08-2016 10:36PM

Whos sitting on the bench is not that important, its the work rate and effort on the field that has been kilkennys well documented success over the years. Waterford didnt field a new team from the bench today since the munster final a few weeks ago, it was the sheer workrate and hunger that was missing transformed them. As a Kilkenny man i wouldnt really worry about the starting fifteen the next day , its the attitude and workrate of those on the field at the time.

Arcade_Tryer · 07-08-2016 11:24PM

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

Topcat32 · 07-08-2016 11:44PM

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

They scored 1 20 so while TJ, John and Jonjoe werent great its harsh to say they were snuffed out, id be more worried about the form of the half back line, Waterford really targeted them and they looked rattled at times especially during the second half.

blackcard · 07-08-2016 11:58PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

They scored 1 20 so while TJ, John and Jonjoe werent great its harsh to say they were snuffed out, id be more worried about the form of the half back line, Waterford really targeted them and they looked rattled at times especially during the second half.

For the last 15 minutes, I was preparing to shake hands with the Waterford supporter in front of me, they were better than us. However Austin Gleeson was inbelievable and is going to be a factor for the next ten years. Having said that, Cork, Galway, Tipp, Limerick
and every other team have hit us with their hardest and we still fought as hard as all of them despite all the all irelands we have won

blackcard · 07-08-2016 11:58PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

They scored 1 20 so while TJ, John and Jonjoe werent great its harsh to say they were snuffed out, id be more worried about the form of the half back line, Waterford really targeted them and they looked rattled at times especially during the second half.

For the last 15 minutes, I was preparing to shake hands with the Waterford supporter in front of me, they were better than us. However Austin Gleeson was inbelievable and is going to be a factor for the next ten years. Having said that, Cork, Galway, Tipp, Limerick
and every other team have hit us with their hardest and we still fought as hard as all of them despite all the all irelands we have won

blackcard · 07-08-2016 11:58PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

They scored 1 20 so while TJ, John and Jonjoe werent great its harsh to say they were snuffed out, id be more worried about the form of the half back line, Waterford really targeted them and they looked rattled at times especially during the second half.

For the last 15 minutes, I was preparing to shake hands with the Waterford supporter in front of me, they were better than us. However Austin Gleeson was inbelievable and is going to be a factor for the next ten years. Having said that, Cork, Galway, Tipp, Limerick
and every other team have hit us with their hardest and we still fought as hard as all of them despite all the all irelands we have won

68deville · 08-08-2016 01:02AM

kksaints wrote: »

One thing I noticed the last few times Ive seen Kilkenny play is that Cody doesnt really use the bench very much. I could be wrong but in the last two matches he has only used two subs in each. It worked against Galway but leaving Power on for the full 70 was a strange choice today.

Simple reason is that he hasn't got a bench ta use ,when larkin is your first option in attack and no disrespect a great servant but there is your options,
Mick fennelly today is a shadow of his former self and apparently John Power was playing today,BC would have hauled Farrell,Power ,Mick Fennelly and Wally
Off if he had better options on the bench

unrealtime · 08-08-2016 04:31AM

If there are better options on any bench in the country (including Waterford's) than Wally or Mick Fennelly then I would play them. Waterford did not win and Paul Murphy had the chance to win it. As noted Kilkenny hit 1-21 and a score of 2-20 is generally good enough to win any match.

Pigeon Chaser · 08-08-2016 07:03AM

Great weather forecast for next weekend ...

Which will be the "kilkenny terrace" ?

Killinan End?

Michael Kavanagh · 08-08-2016 07:17AM

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only thing I'd worry about is the forwards being snuffed out again. It took a few freak scores from Richie Hogan to keep KK in the game in the 1st half and a goal out of nothing in the 2nd to take it to a replay.

They were class scores yesterday by Ritchie its only a man like him would have the confidence to go for it, also the treatment that Walter Walsh got yesterday in the second half was terrible off the ball there was a lad sent off in the minor match for less.

JimboJones99 · 08-08-2016 10:18AM

In fairness to Waterford, they were absolutely superb, their work rate, hunger and commitment was absolutely top notch. The ferocity of their tackling was unbelievable. A big difference in the game to me was the way Waterfords forwards and midfielders were consistently able to recycle the ball when they were met by Kilkennys tackling as opposed to the way our forwards regularly lost it in the tackle.

They did to us yesterday what we have done to many teams down through the years. BUT our lads have some balls, they dug in and kept tipping away. The deise must be wondering if they will ever beat us. Lack of experience or belief maybe played a part in preventing Waterford from getting over the line but by God Kilkenny are some men to have the resolve to keep going.

You would imagine KK will improve for next weekend and that surely everything cant go over again for Waterford but I expect it to go the wire once again. Roll on Thurles next Saturday.

Nedflanders02 · 08-08-2016 10:34AM

Fair play to Waterford they really were outstanding yesterday and really should have won the game. They went man for man for 60-65 minutes and showed how good a side they are but unfortunately (for them anyway) they slipped back to old habits and in the end it cost them the game. The irony is that KK didn't ever look like scoring or even creating a goal chance until they pulled the sweeper back. I thought the WD back were excellent and completely snuffed out the threat of the KK forwards, and up front Gleeson and Mahony were excellent and they had one of those days where everything they hit turned to gold.

From our own point of view I thought it was a really poor performance but to there credit they kept battling and never gave up even when we looked dead and buried!! Kieran Joyce was badly exposed at centre back and should have been taken off a lot earlier as WD really went to town on him!! To be fair to Joyce he wasn't the only one who had a bad day at the office yesterday and he's never let us down in the past. You can't expect to win a game when 5 of your starting forwards play well below there best and if not for Richie Hogan's brilliance (first half especially) we would have been in real trouble. But in saying all that we lived to fight another day and that's a credit to the spirit of the players and management. It will be very interesting to see what changes are made for the next day, the 2 subs I felt made a big difference and I think a place will have to be found in the team for Lester Ryan, who I think was very harshly dropped in the first place. I've seen it said in a few places that there is a lack of quality on the KK bench but I honestly believe there are the players there, I just think there's either a lack of belief or willingness to give some of these guys a chance.

minty81 · 08-08-2016 11:02AM

Whats the story with season tickets for a replay? Same as normal semi final?

blue note · 08-08-2016 11:08AM

blue note wrote: »

I really get the impression from reading this thread that under no circumstances will Waterford get any credit if we win. Or if we lose actually.

If we win it can't possibly be down to us playing well considering the system if we win so it will have to be a Kilkenny collapse. If we lose we'll never have had a chance because of the system.

I actually find this a hard game to call. Both defensive teams - people thinking goals will win it, but neither team scores many or concedes many (with the obvious exception of the Munster final). Goals will be a minimum - I think points will win this game. But no matter what, Waterford won't get any credit here if we do win.

Well I'm glad to say I was wrong with the above post anyway. I never imagined we'd line out as a traditional 15. Aside from the additional attacking options, the 3 man full forward line stopped any short puck outs. Walter Walsh did great in the air I thought and his offloading was excellent, but not having Paul Murphy and co playing the ball up the pitch took pressure off our defence.

I thought before the game how much we were being written off was insane. Basically after one bad half of hurling in the last 2 years we went from being a lot of people's tip for the AI to having zero chance against KK. It made no sense to me. Now, I still fancied Kilkenny slightly for the game - I thought we'd repeat our tactics (and wides) from the Wexford game, but even with a defensive system I still felt we had the players to potentially win it. But having gone traditional we really should have seen it out.

In the last couple of years a few people have said that Kilkenny aren't actually way ahead of everyone else any more. When Gerlock called them functional beyond belief there was actually a compliment in there and Kilkenny really showed it yesterday. Kilkenny were outplayed for most of the match yesterday but never fell too far behind and never coughed up easy scores. Waterford coughed up a few easy scores from mistakes, but Kilkenny never lost composure. Then at the end when we criminally retreated back to defence (and I could see poor Dan screaming at the players to get back up the pitch) Kilkenny kept the heads and managed to grab a match saving goal. Great character, composure, intelligence was shown to keep playing like they did until the end and it paid off.

The replay is every bit as hard to call as the first game. I'd probably pip for Waterford, but I'm sure there's a bit of bias in there. Whatever happens I'm hoping for another game of similar quality anyway.

JJs Left Hand · 08-08-2016 11:14AM

Where was Dan when he was screaming? In the middle of the field?

Justice for the individual · 08-08-2016 12:20PM

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

Fair play to Waterford they really were outstanding yesterday and really should have won the game. They went man for man for 60-65 minutes and showed how good a side they are but unfortunately (for them anyway) they slipped back to old habits and in the end it cost them the game. The irony is that KK didn't ever look like scoring or even creating a goal chance until they pulled the sweeper back. I thought the WD back were excellent and completely snuffed out the threat of the KK forwards, and up front Gleeson and Mahony were excellent and they had one of those days where everything they hit turned to gold.

From our own point of view I thought it was a really poor performance but to there credit they kept battling and never gave up even when we looked dead and buried!! Kieran Joyce was badly exposed at centre back and should have been taken off a lot earlier as WD really went to town on him!! To be fair to Joyce he wasn't the only one who had a bad day at the office yesterday and he's never let us down in the past. You can't expect to win a game when 5 of your starting forwards play well below there best and if not for Richie Hogan's brilliance (first half especially) we would have been in real trouble. But in saying all that we lived to fight another day and that's a credit to the spirit of the players and management. It will be very interesting to see what changes are made for the next day, the 2 subs I felt made a big difference and I think a place will have to be found in the team for Lester Ryan, who I think was very harshly dropped in the first place. I've seen it said in a few places that there is a lack of quality on the KK bench but I honestly believe there are the players there, I just think there's either a lack of belief or willingness to give some of these guys a chance.

Joyce may have been hindered by a clothes line type tackle around the neck, but he appeared to miss a few tackles when Waterford players came though the middle, but Fennelly did also, as they either swerved around them or moved the ball quickly before the tackle.

Hogan was immense all though, and any time there was a chance he was going to break through with his jinking, the Waterford players bundled him to the ground - one sideline incident where he was dragged/pushed/fallen on, and no free given. Another incident, with Walter Walsh when he was coming though on the Waterford endline, he was body wrestled to the ground, and the referee gave a free out.

I do not agree with some comments that the half back line was destroyed. Apart from Joyce, Buckley and Walsh did ok as Waterford's plan was to run at them with pace, and that is always hard to deal with, particularly if there is a gap through the centre, which Gleeson is usually tasked to take on. Perhaps Mick Fennely could have been moved to centre-back or centre-forward to stop the runs, but he looked a bit off the pace and was side-stepped at times.

Could Lennon be brought in at centre-back, but he is an option off the bench for corner-back or his best position at full-back. Lester should be on the next day. Kilkenny need 2 pacy forwards, and we had some of these in action with the Intermediates, but maybe need a bit of bulking up. Walshe, Bolger, Cleere, Morrissey, and a few others have the ability and will eventually make it, but it looks like Brian will settle for his present panel, apart from going with not a fully match-fit Ger Alyward. If Blanchfield could get it together, in full flow he would be unstopable as he has all the physical and hurling attributes.

For the replay, we expect Brian to pull another rabbit out of the bag, but most of all we expect some of the big guns, who underperformed, to polish up their game and intensity.

To be fair to Waterford, they played a blinder, and were very unlucky to not win it through, but Kilkenny did a houdini and salvaged the draw through pure will and bravery and never-say-die attitude.

blue note · 08-08-2016 12:23PM

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Where was Dan when he was screaming? In the middle of the field?

I get the impression you've made some point here that's gone completely over my head so I'll just answer literally. He was on the sideline by the 45. I wasn't far behind him.

That dropping back just killed is, it was so hard to watch. Suddenly kk were allowed to carry the ball to almost the 65 and drop it in. Suddenly the ball was spending a lot of time near our goal and eventually it broke for you. But, hopefully we learned something from it at least.

unrealtime · 08-08-2016 12:29PM

The analysis that Waterford lorded hit is very lazy. KK came back twice from 3 points down in the first half and from 5 points in the second half, scored 1-21, and had the last chance to win the game. The team was most definitely not absent and we were always well in the game.

JJs Left Hand · 08-08-2016 12:30PM

It was a joke alluding to the fact he spent most of the game on the field. As the saying goes if you have to explain it it's not a good joke.

tbiggertycome · 08-08-2016 12:43PM

As I feared if Waterford went 15v15 they'd really trouble us. I never thought McGrath would have the balls to go for it and fair play to him it made for an excellent game, a game Waterford should have won and that didn't surprise me because the have some genuine talent that was been shackled by the sweeper system up to now but that you could see in their U21 games. From what I can tell as well the falling back was an instinct from the players rather than a call from the sideline, weather that came from a mindset of "let's protect this lead" or tired legs or a combination of both it cost them the game in the end. Some of our players were very poor now a lot of that can be put down to how well Waterford tackled harassed and harried our lads. When we did it to them the had 2 or 3 lads supporting out side the tackle group and could off load whereas when our lads were surrounded he maybe had one option maybe two at most and this meant we coughed up a lot of possession. That can be attributed to Waterford but I would blame our lads for not working hard enough to support the player in possession and this ultimately allowed Waterford a foothold which they stamped all over for 60 mins.

Player ratings
Eoin Murphy 8 did what was needed of him but didn't have a whole lot to do.
Paul Murphy 7 made one or two errors and wasn't tight enough to his man for a few of their points, he came into the game but never dominated he's man as he often does.
Joey Holden 8 didn't have masses of work to do but did it well
Shane Prendergast 8 same as Joey
Padraig Walsh 7 was very poor in the first half where I would give him a 4 but in fairness he got going second half he didn't follow O Mahony across the pitch tight enough which lead to a lot of first half scores.
Kieran Joyce 6 was exposed but wasn't getting the usual help from midfield
Cillian Buckley 7 much like Walsh he wasn't good enough in the first half but came into it in the second half I wouldn't be down on him for the wide he was right to have a shot the forwards were winning nothing at the time.
Conor Fogarty 7 didn't get as involved as we're used to seeing him but did get two savage points in each half.
Michael Fennelly 5 looked tired from the start struggled to get involved and wasn't as strong as we usually see him
Wally Walsh 8 put in some serious shift and caught some great ball but was often isolated and struggled to off load it to a lad in a good position.
TJ Reid 6 the only reason he doesn't get a 5 is because of his frees, which were excellent. He hasn't been great all year and needs to up the work rate and then things will start to come off for him.
J Power 4 other than a great catch and charge for go which drew a free did nothing I can remember
Jojoe Farrell 3 only touched the ball once, an offload from Wally on the wing swung for a point but was easily blocked he did very little else and Connors had his number.
Colin Fennelly 5 scored a decent point set up the goal and made some good runs but was anonymous for far too long
Richie Hogan 8 kept us in it in the first half with some superb points was constantly fouled in the second half. He went for a silly shot which went wide in the second half when Padraig Walsh was free inside the 45 with no player within 30 yards of him he could easily have got a point if not driven for goal at time we were struggling for scores.
Eoin Larkin 7 did well when he came on and got stuck in scored a nice point
Lester Ryan 6 struggled to get into the pace of it but put in the tackle that allowed Wally gain possession for the goal.

Over all Waterford were immense everything went right for them up to the last 10 mins. In the last 15 mins we out scored them 1-3 to two points both frees I think. If they had a stayed up front they would have won.

So there is only one question to be answered which team can improve more?

Personally I think most of our lads can only play better than they did yesterday other than Richie and Wally who could be better if they had more support. If we stop the crazy blind cross/back handpasses to no one when running at the goal it would be a big help we most have done it 4 or 5 times drove me insane. I think Waterford could possibly play a little bit better but we have huge room to improve the question is will we?

Nedflanders02 · 08-08-2016 12:46PM

Justice for the individual wrote: »

Joyce may have been hindered by a clothesline pull around the neck, but he appeared to miss a few tackles when Waterford players came though the middle, but Fennelly did also, as they either swerved around them or moved the ball quickly before the tackle.

Hogan was immense all though, and any time there was a chance he was going to break through with his jinking, the Waterford players bundled him to the ground - one sideline incident where he was dragged/pushed/fallen on, and no free given. Another incident, with Walter Walsh when he was coming though on the Waterford endline, he was body wrestled to the ground, and the referee gave a free out.

I do not agree with some comments that the half back line was destroyed. Apart from Joyce, Buckley and Walsh did ok as Waterford's plan was to run at them with pace, and that is always hard to deal with, particularly if there is a gap through the centre, which Gleeson is usually tasked to take on. Perhaps Mick Fennely could have been moved to centre-back or centre-forward to stop the runs, but he looked a bit off the pace and was side-stepped at times.

Could Lennon be brought in at centre-back, but he is an option off the bench for corner-back or his best position at full-back. Lester should be on the next day. Kilkenny need 2 pacy forwards, and we had some of these in action with the Intermediates, but maybe need a bit of bulking up. Walshe, Bolger, Cleere, Morrissey, and a few others have the ability and will eventually make it, but it looks like Brian will settle for his present panel, apart from going with not a fully match-fit Ger Alyward. If Blanchfield could get it together, in full flow he would be unstopable as he has all the physical and hurling attributes.

For the replay, we expect Brian to pull another rabbit out of the bag, but most of all we expect some of the big guns, who underperformed, to polish up their game and intensity.

To be fair to Waterford, they played a blinder, and were very unlucky to not win it through, but Kilkenny did a houdini and salvaged the draw through pure will and bravery and never-say-die attitude.

Yeah I'd agree with a lot of what you say here. I think the 2 wing backs did well, there distribution was a little off at times but still hurled well.

I think Lennon would do a job at centre back but you'd wonder does Cody see it like that, if he did you'd imagine he's have brought him on yesterday but you never know with Cody, and in fairness to Joyce he's the type of hurler that could come out next week and have a stormer!!

How far from full fitness is Ger Alyward? I thought he was out for the year. Would love to see someone like Walsh or Blanchfield tried as they have great potential but that maybe throwing them in at the deep end a bit.

It'll be interesting to see what Cody does for the replay, will he delay naming the team until just before throw in like he did in the replay against Galway in 2014?

dastardly00 · 08-08-2016 12:53PM

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what Cody does for the replay, will he delay naming the team until just before throw in like he did in the replay against Galway in 2014?

And that was the match where Conor Fogarty played midfield for KK for the first time if I remember correctly!

I'd be shocked if John Power wasn't dropped, but I would like to see JohnJoe Farrell start again. Not sure though who I would like to replace Power... Lester Ryan or Eoin Larkin.

Nedflanders02 · 08-08-2016 12:58PM

dastardly00 wrote: »

And that was the match where Conor Fogarty played midfield for KK for the first time if I remember correctly!

I'd be shocked if John Power wasn't dropped, but I would like to see JohnJoe Farrell start again. Not sure though who I would like to replace Power... Lester Ryan or Eoin Larkin.

Yeah that was that game alright and I think Tommy started wing forward if memory serves my correct!

Yeah he was really really poor yesterday and bar one catch did nothing of note!! I'd start Lester ahead of him the next day, Larkin made a big difference when he came on and could be a good option off the bench if we're struggling next week.

Morris Moss · 08-08-2016 01:01PM

Fair play to Waterford they were the better team for 65 minutes, but to be fair to our lads they showed some character to come back and get the draw, also did anybody else find it strange that we rarely put the ball in to the full forward line? I can only remember 1 occasion it went in, waterfords full back line had very little to do which hopefully will change next Saturday.

JJs Left Hand · 08-08-2016 01:04PM

The rating for Murphy is too high. Badly wasted 2 long range frees and a hospital pass to Buckley for the 3rd one

dastardly00 · 08-08-2016 01:12PM

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

The rating for Murphy is too high. Badly wasted 2 long range frees and a hospital pass to Buckley for the 3rd one

I just wanted to mention one more incident with Eoin Murphy that left me with my heart in my mouth.. See the photo below...
Waterford played a high ball in, and Murphy came off his line to compete for it.... like what he did against Clare in the League semi-final. Murphy didn't catch it, but the Waterford player didn't connect with it either. Thankfully the ball broke to another KK player and was cleared. Crazy from Murphy.

Charlie69 · 08-08-2016 01:24PM

blue note wrote: »

Well I'm glad to say I was wrong with the above post anyway. I never imagined we'd line out as a traditional 15. Aside from the additional attacking options, the 3 man full forward line stopped any short puck outs. Walter Walsh did great in the air I thought and his offloading was excellent, but not having Paul Murphy and co playing the ball up the pitch took pressure off our defence.

I thought before the game how much we were being written off was insane. Basically after one bad half of hurling in the last 2 years we went from being a lot of people's tip for the AI to having zero chance against KK. It made no sense to me. Now, I still fancied Kilkenny slightly for the game - I thought we'd repeat our tactics (and wides) from the Wexford game, but even with a defensive system I still felt we had the players to potentially win it. But having gone traditional we really should have seen it out.

In the last couple of years a few people have said that Kilkenny aren't actually way ahead of everyone else any more. When Gerlock called them functional beyond belief there was actually a compliment in there and Kilkenny really showed it yesterday. Kilkenny were outplayed for most of the match yesterday but never fell too far behind and never coughed up easy scores. Waterford coughed up a few easy scores from mistakes, but Kilkenny never lost composure. Then at the end when we criminally retreated back to defence (and I could see poor Dan screaming at the players to get back up the pitch) Kilkenny kept the heads and managed to grab a match saving goal. Great character, composure, intelligence was shown to keep playing like they did until the end and it paid off.

The replay is every bit as hard to call as the first game. I'd probably pip for Waterford, but I'm sure there's a bit of bias in there. Whatever happens I'm hoping for another game of similar quality anyway.

Agree with all of that bluenote, couldn't believe the way Waterford were written off either. That was some performance from your lads and ye really should have won.

I think we're going to find it very difficult to turn things around in six days, it's hard to address so many problems in such a short space of time. When we won replay's in the past we had a few weeks between games to sort things out.Was it a six or seven day turnaround in 2013 when Dublin beat us in the replay???

I'm just hoping that Waterford had one of those days when almost everything went right for them and that we had an off day but I'm not too sure about that...time will tell.

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*