Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Deise Vu

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I'm a getting nervous but I know we can do it if we turn up fully focused no matter what they throw at us (unless everything goes right for them and all those long shots hit the target)

No neutral pundit is giving them a chance they're all plumming for Kilkenny and that never sits well with me, however I don't ascribe to the "Kilkennys unbeaten streak is so long it has to fall at some stage" and that is the reason Waterford might win. Waterford will win if they change their system and are a bit more attacking and it all comes off for them and they work like savages for 75 mins. At most we will face a 2 man FF line and by picking Dunford and Dillon I think McGrath is relying on them to win possession in the middle third and run at our lads or support other runners to create scoring chances. To be honest i think that is their best option far better than having lads taking pot shots from 60, 70, 80 yards on whats supposed to be a nice but gusty day.

Waterford undoubtedly have some very talented players and are a year older and stronger but a lot of them are still very young lots are under 21 and this can be a hindrance especially up front when they have to try and select the correct option shoot or pass?

I think Derek McGrath was very clever to instigate this system, much and all as I hate it. It was the best way for a team with so much youth in it to compete and to not get hockeyed and other than the Tipp game he has been successful in that. However we all realise and so does McGrath that it won't beat Kilkenny or Tipp in championship matches, yes you might beat us in the league on a bog when they have 4 months training and we have 4 weeks training done but when it gets to the business end when we're at the perfect pitch absolutely everything will have to go right for them and lots will have to go wrong for us for them to win if they play as they have done up to now. If they push a few lads forward they definitely have a good chance but i still doubt it will be enough. I think next year they would need to be a lot more aggressive while attacking and learn to defend in waves without the sweeper. If they do this they might get a few beatings while they learn their new roles just like they did in 2014 but it is a far more natural way to hurl and shouldn't take them as long to adjust. I'd be extremely nervous if they got this far playing attacking hurling with some of the young forwards they have coming through. I listened to and interview on a podcast with Derek McGrath during the week and from what I heard he would implement some parts of the basic idea above, he wouldn't abandon the sweeper by the sounds of it and therefore I think he should be replaced if Waterford want to progress.

Those that are hopefully for Waterford are sighting the fact that we have gotten beaten 4 times in championship since 2005. They say that we were overwhelming favourites everytime we lost just like we are tomorrow no one could see us losing then or now.
The four championship matches we lost were
Tipp 2010 AI, had won 21 previous championship matches

Galway 2012 Leinster Final, had won 5 previous matches including AI and blasting Dubin in the previous match

Dublin 2013 Leinster Semi, Had won four and drawn two. I think the theory falls apart on these games I didn't fancy us after the drawn game much as I hoped we'd do it.

Cork 2013 Qualifier, had won two matches over Tipp in the park and Waterford after ET in Thurles, a match we could have won but we were never right all year.

The one thing about all these games is we were missing or playing players who were injured

Tipp 2010- Missing Brian Hogan, Henry and Johnn Tennyson hamstrings
Galway 2012- at least 5 players were carrying knocks into this game, Jackie-hamstring, Tommy-shoulder, Larkin-?, JJ-? and AN Other can't remember it all now but our five worst performers were all trying to come back too early from knocks, injuries and strains
Dublin & Cork 2013- we were never at the races that year and all our lads just looked shattered beyond belief we put it up to teams and we were never going to be beaten by Tipp in our own backyard, other than that it was just waiting for the inevitable sucker punch.

This year we don't have any injury worries we have a full squad to pick from even lads with season ending injuries are back training with the panel (Ger Aylward and James Maher). We've had 2 draws and 11 wins since 2013 I don't think this run is going to come to an end like the last ones did if it does it's because we were beaten by the better team on the day.

Since the start of last year KK have scored 10 goals in Championship so in six games we scored the following goals
5 v Wex 2015
1 v Gal 2015
1 v Wat 2015
1 v Gal 2015
1 v Dub 2016
1 v Gal 2016

However we've only conceded 3 goals in the same 6 games
0 v Wex 2015
2 v Gal 2015
0 v Wat 2015
1 v Gal 2015
0 v Dub 2016
0 v Gal 2016

For a team who are struggling to score goals then this is a huge challenge. A challenge I believe Waterford have the players to overcome but not the right system this year.

We scored on average 24 points to go along with those goals while only conceding only 17.5 points per game

Waterford have played 7 games in the same period and scored the following goals
3 v Crk 2015
0 v Tipp 2015
2 v Dub 2015
0 v KK 2015
1 v Cla 2016
0 v Tipp 2016
0 v Wex 2016

Waterford have conceded the following in those same games
1 v Crk 2015
0 v Tipp 2015
1 v Dub 2015
1 v KK 2015
0 v Cla 2016
5 v Tipp 2016
0 v Wex 2016

So Waterford scored 6 in 7 games but with the ultra defensive system ye've still conceded 8 goals in 4 of those games and only kept the ball out of the onion bag against Tipp 15, Clare 16 and Wex 16 to me thats not very impressive for Derek Mc Graths system and actually worse than it thought their record would be.

Waterford scored an average of 21 points in those seven games and conceded and average of 19.7 points.

Waterford are scoring on average 1.3 points more than the opposition and an odd goal more (8 to 6 over 7 games)

Kilkenny are scoring on average 6.5 points more than the opposition and have scored over 3 times as many goals as our opposition in the 6 games

None of the above proves anything or tells us what will happen tomorrow but they give a good indication that Kilkenny can score goals no matter who they are playing and even without the goals they're scoring plenty of points to win especially when they defend so well from 15 to 1.

If you check the Waterford forum I think you will see we are, to put it mildly, somewhat less than optimistic about this game. Your post has cheered me up no end though. I didn't realise Kilkenny had only scored 1 goal in each of their last five championship matches.

Including 5 goals scored in the furthest back match against an average Wexford team is a bit misleading really isn't it? The first rule in statistics is to rule out the outliers which that score line clearly was in the context of what followed. Likewise, Waterford conceded 5 against Tipperary after individual errors in a monsoon that would have embarrassed a junior B side. Proper analysis of your stats would suggest Kilkenny will score 1 goal and Waterford none. Is 1 goal going to be decisive? I very much doubt it. Thanks for giving me some hope where, if I'm honest I didn't really see any.

Bulldog 12

Have 2 tickets for sale for tomorrow. Section 304 row U. Private message if anyone interested.

Cornerback1

unrealtime wrote: »

Waterford did not invent the sweeper system.

Clare moved Markham back as an extra defender in the Noughties or earlier. It never worked either. There is no point in putting back an extra defender - it gives room around the pitch to the opposition and good passing will destroy a defensive team.

Waterford remind me of Donegal (football) a few years ago. Set up defensively but they only went so far in the first couple of years. Mc Guinness realised that they had to tweak the defensive system to produce more at the other end.

In a similar way, Mc Grath and Waterford are currently in that position now. They have to do something different to be more productive up front.

mountgomery burns

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Waterford remind me of Donegal (football) a few years ago. Set up defensively but they only went so far in the first couple of years. Mc Guinness realised that they had to tweak the defensive system to produce more at the other end.

In a similar way, Mc Grath and Waterford are currently in that position now. They have to do something different to be more productive up front.

They won an all ireland in McGuinness' second year in charge.

Cornerback1

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Waterford remind me of Donegal (football) a few years ago. Set up defensively but they only went so far in the first couple of years. Mc Guinness realised that they had to tweak the defensive system to produce more at the other end.

In a similar way, Mc Grath and Waterford are currently in that position now. They have to do something different to be more productive up front.

mountgomery burns wrote: »

They won an all ireland in McGuinness' second year in charge.

Cornerback is right only i think the difference is that the defensive system was part of a greater plan with McGuinness. He was trying to fortify Donegal initially. It seems to be Derek's only plan though. I expected them to play with more of a bould swagger this year

Cornerback1

Deleted User wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Waterford remind me of Donegal (football) a few years ago. Set up defensively but they only went so far in the first couple of years. Mc Guinness realised that they had to tweak the defensive system to produce more at the other end.

In a similar way, Mc Grath and Waterford are currently in that position now. They have to do something different to be more productive up front.

mountgomery burns wrote: »

They won an all ireland in McGuinness' second year in charge.

Cornerback is right only i think the difference is that the defensive system was part of a greater plan with McGuinness. He was trying to fortify Donegal initially. It seems to be Derek's only plan though. I expected them to play with more of a bould swagger this year

True. I thought they would be more of an attacking force this year. Obviously hurling is different but Waterford are slowly progressing. They won the league last year, got to the final this year again and are probably in the top 3 or 4 teams. Now how they move up the charts is up to their management team.

citykat

Kilkenny 5-16 Clare 1-16.

Cornerback1

citykat wrote: »

Kilkenny 5-16 Clare 1-16.

Goals wins matches!!!

unrealtime

That's a sh1t hot intermediate team

Justice for the individual

unrealtime wrote: »

That's a sh1t hot intermediate team

A comprehensive win.

Any news on individual performances?

blackcard

unrealtime wrote: »

That's a sh1t hot intermediate team

I think you will see a few players from that team on the senior team in the future, John Walsh, Jason Cleere and Richie Leahy for example

windy shepard henderson

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Goals wins matches!!!

yep 4 of which came in the first half against a fairly strong wind , we were comfortable in the first ten minutes leading 1-03 to 0-01 then within 5 mins it was game over and something like 4-02 to 1-05

didnt travel down today but it did sound like a fairly descent side ye had out

dastardly00

Well done to the Intermediate team and backroom staff! Congrats!

XR3i

galway gonna hammer the kats thi syear

Powerhouse

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

2 - If one of Joyce, Fogarty or Fennelly don't break Gleeson in half during one of those runs up the middle I'll be gutted. He's obviously quality and it's hard for anyone to keep into him hence why he keeps doing it but **** me someone just ****ing level him.

You are not alone in Kilkenny it seems. Enda McEvoy wrote (on the examiner website) "how will he [Gleeson] react to a borderline-late hit"?

Cornerback1

Justice for the individual wrote: »

unrealtime wrote: »

That's a sh1t hot intermediate team

A comprehensive win.

Any news on individual performances?

According to KCLR, it was poor enough game. Maybe the goals killed it a bit but Clare got to within 4pts in second half but never looked liked going ahead.

Evan Coady got 2 yellows i think. Walsh got his second goal with the last puck of the game.

citykat

Powerhouse wrote: »

You are not alone in Kilkenny it seems. Enda McEvoy wrote (on the examiner website) "how will he [Gleeson] react to a borderline-late hit"?

Enda loves his poetic license.

Motivator

Powerhouse wrote: »

You are not alone in Kilkenny it seems. Enda McEvoy wrote (on the examiner website) "how will he [Gleeson] react to a borderline-late hit"?

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

amber69

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

He should have got the line against Tipp.

dastardly00

XR3i wrote: »

galway gonna hammer the kats thi syear

Wha?

dastardly00

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

Ah sure the rest of the Waterford players don't really need to turn up do they? Just leave it all to Gleeson to take on the entire KK team :rolleyes:

Powerhouse

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

My plans for 3.30 tomorrow might be about to change having read this. Maybe it'll be worth staying awake for after all!

blackcard

Congrats to Jason Cleere and Sean Morrissey on their sixth AI.Some achievement at the age of 20

JJs Left Hand

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

If you try and go toe to toe with us physically you'll be killed. You essentially have a team of kids such is the age profile of your team against ours. They may be big for their age but Kilkenny are a different animal. The absolute last thing you should do is try to make it a war.

Realt Dearg Sec

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

You may have missed the point of mcevoys question. He's discussing whether the lad will react stupidly and get himself sent off. Your response would seem to support that suspicion.

As for Kilkenny trying to stir it, it might be worth reminding yourself of 2008: Kilkenny aren't in the business of stirring it, but when Waterford, in their infinite wisdom went down that road we know where it got them.

Motivator

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You may have missed the point of mcevoys question. He's discussing whether the lad will react stupidly and get himself sent off. Your response would seem to support that suspicion.

As for Kilkenny trying to stir it, it might be worth reminding yourself of 2008: Kilkenny aren't in the business of stirring it, but when Waterford, in their infinite wisdom went down that road we know where it got them.

No I get McEvoys point but what I'm saying is he's able to take the hits, Thai year he seems to be channelling it a bit better. In the Clare game he got a horrible off the ball shot off Mcinerney (open to correction it mightnt have been him) & reacted in the best possible way. In the U21 final he got a few shots & was actually blowing lads two & threw at a time out of his way. The youngfella is an animal, I can't think of anyone so athletic & quick on their feet but who is also able to take so many hits.

Realt Dearg Sec

Motivator wrote: »

No I get McEvoys point but what I'm saying is he's able to take the hits, Thai year he seems to be channelling it a bit better. In the Clare game he got a horrible off the ball shot off Mcinerney (open to correction it mightnt have been him) & reacted in the best possible way. In the U21 final he got a few shots & was actually blowing lads two & threw at a time out of his way. The youngfella is an animal, I can't think of anyone so athletic & quick on their feet but who is also able to take so many hits.

Well if his response is to play someone off the park fair play to him. But if he's looking to bury lads and get into a fight? It's a mugs game, and it won't do much good against Kilkenny. Cody's while approach to putting his team's together since galway muscled us out of it in 2001 has been about making sure we're never intimidated. Getting rid of the old "Kilkenny for the hurlers, tipp for the men" saying might be one of his major achievements

tbiggertycome

Firstly Kilkenny go out to hurl and not to hit lads. If a lad is in the way he will get hit if needs be but it's not our first option. However teams come at us and try rough us up but our lads can handle that better than anyone and can do it all day not just for the first half. I'm fairly sure Kilkenny don't turn it on in the second half they maintain the level, the intensity, the hits but the other team can't stay at that level beyond 50mins.

Gleeson is an excellent hurler he's fast and skilful and is definitely bigger this year than he was and sturdier than he was. However there's a big difference busting through 2 or 3 young lads from Tipp or Clare and trying burst through Mick Fennelly, Conor Fogarty and Wally let's say. He might burst past one but he won't burst through all three and still have the ball. I'm not trying to take anything from him he is going to be your best player for the next 10 years as long as he stays injury free and I see him as the new Michael Fennelly. The problem is the old Michael Fennelly hasn't gone away and the 3 lads I mentioned above and all the Kilkenny players have at least 3 or 4 years if not 11 or 12 years for some of that stamina building intensity we have in training which allows them to not be fazed by big hits they just bounce back up and look for more.

Best of luck this afternoon hopefully it'll be at the very least entertaining and played and reffed fairly.

Buck Melanoma

Motivator wrote: »

Austin will bury any Kilkenny player brave enough to take him on. Have never seen a youngfella to give or take hits like him, he got a few sly ones against Clare in June & look how he responded, gave it back with interest then went & won the game for us.

I hope Kilkenny try & stir it tomorrow, this Waterford team won't stand for it & Ive a feeling a few Kilkenny lads will come off worst. Gleeson et. al don't care how many All Ireland's you have - it'll be a war.

See Kilkenny don't need to stir it. That generally is reserved for teams with an inferiority complex. Kilkenny have seen it all before, teams looking for a war are old hat. That is Kilkenny's (and Cody's)legacy, they adapt to whatever is thrown at them. So if you come to battle .........

Arcade_Tryer

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Firstly Kilkenny go out to hurl and not to hit lads. If a lad is in the way he will get hit if needs be but it's not our first option. However teams come at us and try rough us up but our lads can handle that better than anyone and can do it all day not just for the first half.

This sums up Kilkenny perfectly. While they are no doubt a physical team, the priority is always to play hurling first. And when teams come at them and try to rough them up (see Galway in recent years), their greatest ability is being able to resist that physicality until it is rendered moot. Sure they can throw it about with the best of them, but it is always secondary to the sole aim of out-scoring and out-hurling the opposition.