Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Justice for the individual

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

if you really looked at the game KK were very very good marvelous scores great work rate ,overall they were excellent but waterford were just that little bit better on the day ,usually when we loose and that can be quiet often ,we lose because we were beaten by the better team on the day ,according to yourself the only reason KK lost was because they were sub par ,not at all just hurled off the pitch and still got the draw, that is some team down by 5 ,time running out and got a result ,fair play ,

Kilkenny WERE below par, but still did not lose.

Waterford hurled out of their skin, fair play to them, but still did not win.

The game ended in a draw.

For most of the game , the running and inter-play of Waterford really had Kilkenny in trouble, but Kilkenny did not allow the game to get away from them, and throughout the match, in general, there was only one or two points between them.

When Waterford did go ahead by five points near the end, Kilkenny were able to haul them back and could have won the game, when Paul Murphy with a clear shot for the winning point, drove the ball wide. In fact, for the last 10/12 minutes, Kilkenny gained control, exemplified by Michael Fennelly plugging away, and Larkin's input when he came on.

It is like Waterford huffed and puffed, but did not blow Kilkenny away. Their fear of losing inhibited their cause for winning, and they reverted back to their defensive strategy, which let them down as many of the Waterford players had run out of energy due to the running strategy they had used during the game.

In the main, because in running with pace and quick off-loading of the ball, Waterford kept Kilkenny in two minds, and that upset any Kilkenny game plan. Kilkenny will use a different approach next Saturday, and Waterford will find they will not have the freedom of the park to roam at will.

Austin Gleeson gave an exhibition of hurling in Croke Park and will have to be curtailed. I may be wrong here, but maybe Lester Ryan should be given a free role, like Gleeson has been given, and keep tabs on him, but you can be sure Brian has his own remedy.

I have only now seen the team for Saturday, but will this team actually take the field - hard to believe, no changes. Maybe Brian wants the bench strong until he sees what way the game is panning out.

holyhead

Hurler on the ditch not sure what game you were watching if you think KK were excellent. First of all credit to Waterford. They were superb and left nothing in the dressing room. KK as Justice said were below par. Partially due to the intensity that Waterford brought to the game. Can't see Waterford playing better than that. We have alot more room for improvement. As justice said Waterford did huff and puff but never blew the KK house down. In saying that had P Murphy scored it would have been harsh on Waterford. As much as we were below par I thought KK were impressive in never caving in. Watching the game I felt the momentum and fortune was generally with Waterford but the KK boys hung in there and showed great character.
I would be optimistic for the replay and may the best team on the day win.

citykat

danganabu wrote: »

citykat wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if Gleeson has a game like that again in the replay. Like Waterford, he blows hot and cold particularly at senior level. I'd doubt if he'll get that kind of space again whether it's tactics or just the way the ball breaks. It amazes me. Before the game, Waterford were completely written off no hopers. Talk about zero to hero. The outcome of the drawn game was a combination of a KK sub par performance and a Waterford purple patch. Are those two events likely to coincide? I don't think so.
The remedy for the next day is Larks in and make the midfield a no go area for the faint hearted.

It amazes me how from 10 mins of slightly above average hurling that Larkin has gone from past it and a good squad player to the saviour. If KK start Larkin, that's Larkin and Fennelly who have to be replaced for the last 20 mins and with KK's relatively shallow bench that's a pretty big risk that the remaining forwards/midfield are all on song.

There's so much in that pile I don't know where to start.
Larks is far from past it. Mediocre so far this season but past it nfw imo. He can catch fire, like he has done many times in the past. As for Fennelly having to come off? He was excellent for all of the Leinster final. Its hilarious writing him off after one match. Unlike his former Tipp opponents, there's still some miles left on the clock.

hurler on de ditch

holyhead wrote: »

Hurler on the ditch not sure what game you were watching if you think KK were excellent. First of all credit to Waterford. They were superb and left nothing in the dressing room. KK as Justice said were below par. Partially due to the intensity that Waterford brought to the game. Can't see Waterford playing better than that. We have alot more room for improvement. As justice said Waterford did huff and puff but never blew the KK house down. In saying that had P Murphy scored it would have been harsh on Waterford. As much as we were below par I thought KK were impressive in never caving in. Watching the game I felt the momentum and fortune was generally with Waterford but the KK boys hung in there and showed great character.
I would be optimistic for the replay and may the best team on the day win.

watched the same game as yourself its just ye cant give credit to any team that pushes ye,its always we were this and we were that ,this was the first time this year we actually went for it, suppose because we had no choice no point in going up to croker to play defensive and getting beat out the gate ,so we went for it and only that we retreated and faded abit in the last 15 ins were KK able to have any impact ,to say ye can raise your game and we cant is utter tripe,

citykat

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

holyhead wrote: »

Hurler on the ditch not sure what game you were watching if you think KK were excellent. First of all credit to Waterford. They were superb and left nothing in the dressing room. KK as Justice said were below par. Partially due to the intensity that Waterford brought to the game. Can't see Waterford playing better than that. We have alot more room for improvement. As justice said Waterford did huff and puff but never blew the KK house down. In saying that had P Murphy scored it would have been harsh on Waterford. As much as we were below par I thought KK were impressive in never caving in. Watching the game I felt the momentum and fortune was generally with Waterford but the KK boys hung in there and showed great character.
I would be optimistic for the replay and may the best team on the day win.

watched the same game as yourself its just ye cant give credit to any team that pushes ye,its always we were this and we were that ,this was the first time this year we actually went for it, suppose because we had no choice no point in going up to croker to play defensive and getting beat out the gate ,so we went for it and only that we retreated and faded abit in the last 15 ins were KK able to have any impact ,to say ye can raise your game and we cant is utter tripe,

You're being a tad over sensitive. It's not a case of not giving credit. Waterford were excellent for at least 55 mins. They out Kilkennyed Kilkenny. Then they reverted to type, hitting soft wides. In the end it took a soft free and a miss from our corner back to get Waterford the draw. But to some it seems as if the Munster final never happened. A lot of presumptions are being made about both teams based on one match.

Cornerback1

Is Sunday's game available to watch anywhere?

dirkmeister

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Is Sunday's game available to watch anywhere?

Rte player,the full game is on YouTube also.

dastardly00

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Team announced for the Kil v Wat Replay
E Murphy
P Murphy J Holden S Prendergast
P Walsh K Joyce C Buckley
C Fogarty M Fennelly
W Walsh TJ Reid J Power
JJ Farrell C Fennelly R Hogan
Subs
R Reid
J Tyrrell
R Lennon
C oShea
L Ryan
E Larkin
C Martin
K Kelly
M Bergin
L Blanchfield
M Malone
Doubt this team will line out though on the day.

I'll be amazed if that is the team that starts the match.

unrealtime

If that is the announced team I think it will start. Some limited changes were called for I thought.

Cornerback1

dirkmeister wrote: »

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Is Sunday's game available to watch anywhere?

Rte player,the full game is on YouTube also.

Rt player doesn't work in the north...'foreign country'...lol. Saw the 8mins highlights on You Tube...will look now for the full game. Thanks.

robwen

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Rt player doesn't work in the north...'foreign country'...lol. Saw the 8mins highlights on You Tube...will look now for the full game. Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rruoKDqBjVA

trapp

citykat wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if Gleeson has a game like that again in the replay. Like Waterford, he blows hot and cold particularly at senior level. I'd doubt if he'll get that kind of space again whether it's tactics or just the way the ball breaks. It amazes me. Before the game, Waterford were completely written off no hopers. Talk about zero to hero. The outcome of the drawn game was a combination of a KK sub par performance and a Waterford purple patch. Are those two events likely to coincide? I don't think so.
The remedy for the next day is Larks in and make the midfield a no go area for the faint hearted.

Underestimating Aussie there lads.

He very rarely blows cold at any level.

He has the potential to be greatest there has ever been regardless of how Saturday goes for him.

He's only just 21 and he has it all.

C__MC

Shame Chris Bolger can't make the match day squad, from a few glimpses of him at club and county suggests he has a lot of scoring power. He could be no worse than a few other players that has gotten chances

JJs Left Hand

The Bolger obsession in here Jesus Christ


No way that team starts - there will be changes

brookville

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

The Bolger obsession in here Jesus Christ


No way that team starts - there will be changes

Bolger has being clara's best foward this year and it's a suprise he can't make the panel but his obviously not doing the business in training.I've heard john walsh was brought into the panel this week I don't know what truth is in this but he definitely wasn't pucking around with the squad last week when it was open to the public..it's probably to late to parachute someone like him into the fray now

dubcat51

Agree no way that team starts on saturday.john power cant possibly start.bolger walsh kelly blanch must surely get a chance.would keep joyce in normally rock solid.larkin also must surely start.

blackcard

dubcat51 wrote: »

Agree no way that team starts on saturday.john power cant possibly start.bolger walsh kelly blanch must surely get a chance.would keep joyce in normally rock solid.larkin also must surely start.

I don't know, Cody may say what he is supposed to have said to the team at half time in last year's AI 'ye know what ye did wrong lads, now go out there and sort it out'

jeff bingham

trapp wrote:

Underestimating Aussie there lads.

I'd have to agree, I've seen him take some ridiculous shots alright but rarely is he not one of the best players on the pitch at any grade since he started hurling adult

mountgomery burns

dubcat51 wrote: »

Agree no way that team starts on saturday.john power cant possibly start.bolger walsh kelly blanch must surely get a chance.would keep joyce in normally rock solid.larkin also must surely start.

If ye start all of Bolger, John Walsh, Kevin Kelly and Blanchfield we will win by about 20 points.

But ye won't, maybe one will start but I doubt it.

tbiggertycome

mountgomery burns wrote: »

If ye start all of Bolger, John Walsh, Kevin Kelly and Blanchfield we will win by about 20 points.

But ye won't, maybe one will start but I doubt it.

I think they were suggesting one of those start, at least I hope they were.
Chris Bolger seems to not be flavour of the month for whatever reason maybe he's attitude isn't the way Cody wants it yet maybe he's not working hard enough.
John Walsh was unbelievable last Saturday but has not trained with the seniors yet so I would say you will see him next year.
Kevin Kelly from what I've seen of him so far he doesn't work hard enough or maybe effectively when we don't have the ball for Cody to use him in a game like this. That may have changed over the summer.
Liam Blanchfield is undoubtedly talented and will cause lots of trouble but hasn't impressed in any of his appearances for the Seniors so far in the League or the cameo against Dublin when we were winning. Blanchfield is the only one I can see Cody using on Saturday but I don't think he'll start him.

redlead

There seems to be a general consensus that Kilkenny under performed the last day and will go up a gear or two on Saturday to account for Waterford. I actually thought Kilkenny played very well for the most part but were just out hurled. I'm not sure that there is much of an extra gear for them. Just because teams aren't blown away anymore, that doesn't mean you aren't playing well. The quality of player throughout the team to do that just isn't there anymore to do that in my opinion. I don't mean that as an insult, just that you are viewed as mortal like the rest of us now.

For me the key component of what makes Kilkenny so great is their level of consistency. They just always perform at a consistent high level that no-one else can even come close to. For me tomorrow's result is all about how Waterford perform. If they play to the same level again I think they will win as Kilkenny will struggle to cope with another challenge like that with such a short turnaround. If they don't, Kilkenny will win because you can be damn sure they'll be playing well.

unrealtime

largely agree with redlead - we did play well and came back three times. However obvious improvements are possible around centre back and midfield and in competing for the breaking ball. I foresee better for Kilkenny in those areas on Saturday. If that happens can Waterford hang on to aspects such as their unfailing accuracy for most of the game and will the ABSOLUTE brilliance of some players, which we could not match, endure.

mountgomery burns

There is an obvious aspect where Waterford can improve that is being ignored - goal scoring.

Unlike other games, we actually got into positions where the goal was on but the right option wasn't taken or Kilkenny managed to recover. If they cut through in the same manner tomorrow I'll be surprised if we don't get a goal.

blue note

I'm surprised at how much we seem to be written off in terms of repeating our performance, let alone improve on it. Regarding our incredible accuracy - yes that was the case for 60 minutes or so, but we had 10 wides overall in the match. That's hardly incredible accuracy, that's about normal for a team. Goals as MB said above is another obvious improvement. We got into goal scoring positions a couple of times. If we convert one of those it'll go a long way towards the finishing line (well 3 points to be exact). Aussie did put in an incredible performance, but he usually is one of the very best players on the pitch. A couple of players, particularly our corner forwards could have done more damage and there's no reason they won't tomorrow. And Maurice I thought was poor by his standards when he came on. Last year he was incredible, if he hit that sort of form tomorrow he'd be a massive boost. Daragh Fives is an awesome player too, if he's back I'd expect Walter Walsh to get on less ball, even though Gleeson played well last week. An finally, we really let you back into it in the last 10-15 minutes of the game. I expect our lads to have learned a lesson from that and I think you'll face a 70 minute performance tomorrow.

On the Kilkenny side I agree with those that have said Kilkenny played well. Not as many stand out performances, but still you coughed up no easy scores, didn't give away many soft frees, took your chances very well. Obviously you were dominated for most of the match, but that was in spite of playing well. There is obvious room for improvement, but anyone who thinks Kilkenny played poorly last week is deluded.

tbiggertycome

If Waterford score a goal on Saturday I'll be very worried, if they score two I'd say we'll be buried unless we're well ahead at the time. This game has all come down to mentality and who will have more belief and the stronger will. I think it will be a close game with the eventual winners pulling away by 4 to 5 in the last 5 mins.

From listening to a lot of interviews from mainly the Waterford camp management and players and the odd few words Kilkenny players gave after the match I took a few things from all those interviews.
1. I think we all know by now the call to fall back and protect the lead on Sunday never came, in fact the management were roaring at there players to push up on Kilkenny(which would have been the correct approach)
2. From the 55th minute on most of the Waterford players were totally shattered from the sheer maniacal work rate they had used up to that. At the final whistle they were spent physically, I don't think the Kilkenny players were as spent while still being very very tired and bruised.

Can Waterford bring that same intensity and possibly more 6 days later?- most definitely but not a whole lot more
Can Kilkenny bring the same or more intensity 6 days later?- I sure hope so as I don't think they all did as much work as they normally get through in a game(that is not trying to degrade Waterfords effort but a compliment as Waterford cleverly kept some of our top players out of the game) I believe players like Conor Fogarty, Mick Fennelly, TJ Reid, Jonjo Farrell, John Power, Kieran Joyce, Colin Fennelly can all work harder and definitely more effectively. How many Waterford players could you say didn't work hard enough especially up to the 55min mark? 1 or 2 maybe, we had half a team working hard but not the way we know they can and obviously not effectively. Perhaps Waterford are just too good for these individuals and they can't get the better of their men! I personally don't think so I just think they weren't working smart enough or hard enough.

Having said all of that there is no guarantee they will do it on Saturday. I do think last Sundays game will have given them a chance to blow out the cobwebs and I expect Kilkenny to be operating at a higher level throughout with those players back contributing.

By the way I've never believed this Kilkenny go up through the gears in the second half, they may be more focused but in terms of work I have rarely seen a difference between first half and second half. I think they are at the same level more or less through out but what does change is the other team. They can no longer sustain the physical effort it took them to match Kilkenny through the first half and the early part of the second half. The other factor along with the other teams tiredness is the pressure our forwards usually apply to the opposition backs all through but later in the game that pressure often results in hasty and poor clearances which allow Kilkenny to build attack after attack which inevitably leads to scores to push us clear. We were not working at all hard enough to make this happen on Sunday and the Waterford backs cleared the ball at there ease throughout the game by and large. The only reason it didn't keep working for them was because they fell back and had no one to clear the ball too for the last 20mins.

Can Waterford bring the same intensity and make it last 75 mins in 6 days? No they just don't have the conditioning yet
Can Kilkenny work smarter and more effectively from the start? Yes
Will they? I don't know
Can Waterford be so accurate again with all there shots from play? Yes
Will they? I don't know I would have my doubts
Can Waterford score goals against us? Yes
Will they? I don't think we'll be that open it's one constant in Cody replays, the defence learns and tightens up fierce.
Can we score goals against them? Yes
Will we? Maybe but only 1 if we do.
Can we better support the player in possession who is being surrounded? Definitely
Will we? I sure hope so this is another hallmark of Cody replay teams
Can Waterford support the player in possession who is being surrounded? Yes, they did last time brilliantly the player always had 2 or 3 outs
Will they? Definitely so we need to be there in numbers
Can we keep A Gleeson quite? possibly but unlikely
Will we? I doubt it so we need to get closer to him for hooks and flicks when he solos and keep our own ball away from him.
Can Mick Fennelly turn up this time? Yes
Will he? I don't know the game should bring him on but the thing that worries me most is that from the throw in he looked like he had 20lbs weights around each ankle. If he's right then that changes almost everything.

Overall I would say Waterford can be as effective again for 55mins if we play the same way. If their not as effective they may last longer but what will we have scored with them not working so hard that they can last the full 75mins. People are saying Waterford is the younger team but two of the lynchpins that I think are crucial to both their game plans are Brick and K Moran neither spring chickens 33 and 29 respectively can they be as effective and have the same influence given the enormous shift they both put in 6 days ago?

This replay is very hard to call but (obviously given my bias) I feel if Kilkenny turn up with a more focused game plan and if the KK players who struggled the last day get level or better than their man then it's Kilkennys game.

Waterford can win if they have a slightly smarter approach to the end of the game and Kilkenny don't get on top in too many positions.

For me it's Kilkennys to lose. That doesn't mean I'm in anyway confident but I think Waterford have shown their hands now and we know how to play against both ways we might see them throw at us but can we raise or game to their level, we definitely need to, to have a chance.

Cornerback1

Very good post. All areas covered.

Goal(s), if any, will be crucial on Saturday evening.

Hope Eoin Murphy stays on his line on this visit to Thurles!!!

Huge interest in this game. Only terrace tickets left, and with the camogie semi-finals on, it should be near a sell out.

danganabu

citykat wrote: »

There's so much in that pile I don't know where to start.
Larks is far from past it. Mediocre so far this season but past it nfw imo. He can catch fire, like he has done many times in the past. As for Fennelly having to come off? He was excellent for all of the Leinster final. Its hilarious writing him off after one match. Unlike his former Tipp opponents, there's still some miles left on the clock.

Well its 15 months since Larkin played a full 70 mins, Fennelly has been taken off 2 out of the 3 games this year and there is no way in hell his body is up to a full 70mins following a 6 day turn around.

No idea why you mention former Tipp midfielders, what id the relevance or was it just a childish snipe??

hurler on de ditch

tbiggertycome wrote: »

If Waterford score a goal on Saturday I'll be very worried, if they score two I'd say we'll be buried unless we're well ahead at the time. This game has all come down to mentality and who will have more belief and the stronger will. I think it will be a close game with the eventual winners pulling away by 4 to 5 in the last 5 mins.

From listening to a lot of interviews from mainly the Waterford camp management and players and the odd few words Kilkenny players gave after the match I took a few things from all those interviews.
1. I think we all know by now the call to fall back and protect the lead on Sunday never came, in fact the management were roaring at there players to push up on Kilkenny(which would have been the correct approach)
2. From the 55th minute on most of the Waterford players were totally shattered from the sheer maniacal work rate they had used up to that. At the final whistle they were spent physically, I don't think the Kilkenny players were as spent while still being very very tired and bruised.

Can Waterford bring that same intensity and possibly more 6 days later?- most definitely but not a whole lot more
Can Kilkenny bring the same or more intensity 6 days later?- I sure hope so as I don't think they all did as much work as they normally get through in a game(that is not trying to degrade Waterfords effort but a compliment as Waterford cleverly kept some of our top players out of the game) I believe players like Conor Fogarty, Mick Fennelly, TJ Reid, Jonjo Farrell, John Power, Kieran Joyce, Colin Fennelly can all work harder and definitely more effectively. How many Waterford players could you say didn't work hard enough especially up to the 55min mark? 1 or 2 maybe, we had half a team working hard but not the way we know they can and obviously not effectively. Perhaps Waterford are just too good for these individuals and they can't get the better of their men! I personally don't think so I just think they weren't working smart enough or hard enough.

Having said all of that there is no guarantee they will do it on Saturday. I do think last Sundays game will have given them a chance to blow out the cobwebs and I expect Kilkenny to be operating at a higher level throughout with those players back contributing.

By the way I've never believed this Kilkenny go up through the gears in the second half, they may be more focused but in terms of work I have rarely seen a difference between first half and second half. I think they are at the same level more or less through out but what does change is the other team. They can no longer sustain the physical effort it took them to match Kilkenny through the first half and the early part of the second half. The other factor along with the other teams tiredness is the pressure our forwards usually apply to the opposition backs all through but later in the game that pressure often results in hasty and poor clearances which allow Kilkenny to build attack after attack which inevitably leads to scores to push us clear. We were not working at all hard enough to make this happen on Sunday and the Waterford backs cleared the ball at there ease throughout the game by and large. The only reason it didn't keep working for them was because they fell back and had no one to clear the ball too for the last 20mins.

Can Waterford bring the same intensity and make it last 75 mins in 6 days? No they just don't have the conditioning yet
Can Kilkenny work smarter and more effectively from the start? Yes
Will they? I don't know
Can Waterford be so accurate again with all there shots from play? Yes
Will they? I don't know I would have my doubts
Can Waterford score goals against us? Yes
Will they? I don't think we'll be that open it's one constant in Cody replays, the defence learns and tightens up fierce.
Can we score goals against them? Yes
Will we? Maybe but only 1 if we do.
Can we better support the player in possession who is being surrounded? Definitely
Will we? I sure hope so this is another hallmark of Cody replay teams
Can Waterford support the player in possession who is being surrounded? Yes, they did last time brilliantly the player always had 2 or 3 outs
Will they? Definitely so we need to be there in numbers
Can we keep A Gleeson quite? possibly but unlikely
Will we? I doubt it so we need to get closer to him for hooks and flicks when he solos and keep our own ball away from him.
Can Mick Fennelly turn up this time? Yes
Will he? I don't know the game should bring him on but the thing that worries me most is that from the throw in he looked like he had 20lbs weights around each ankle. If he's right then that changes almost everything.

Overall I would say Waterford can be as effective again for 55mins if we play the same way. If their not as effective they may last longer but what will we have scored with them not working so hard that they can last the full 75mins. People are saying Waterford is the younger team but two of the lynchpins that I think are crucial to both their game plans are Brick and K Moran neither spring chickens 33 and 29 respectively can they be as effective and have the same influence given the enormous shift they both put in 6 days ago?

This replay is very hard to call but (obviously given my bias) I feel if Kilkenny turn up with a more focused game plan and if the KK players who struggled the last day get level or better than their man then it's Kilkennys game.

Waterford can win if they have a slightly smarter approach to the end of the game and Kilkenny don't get on top in too many positions.

For me it's Kilkennys to lose. That doesn't mean I'm in anyway confident but I think Waterford have shown their hands now and we know how to play against both ways we might see them throw at us but can we raise or game to their level, we definitely need to, to have a chance.

we played a relatively defensive system and beat ye in the league this year (i know i know its only the league)we played what was a more straight forward game last Sunday ,and you can look at it both ways depending on what county you come from ,but ye did very well to get a draw ,suppose its Waterford's to lose

JJs Left Hand

Where has this nonsense that we played well come out of?
Full back line was grand
Half back line: blew out of it
Midfield: blew out of it
Forwards: blew out of it bar 35 mins for Richie

We didn't hurl well - we survived: there's a clear difference. We weren't let hurl but to say we played well is absolutely ridiculous. Couldn't win a breaking ball all day and I'd say we delivered a handful of ball into the full forward line all game. We survived on the back of Waterford fouls, accurate shooting when the chances arose and a calmness under pressure in the last 6/7 mins.

Amazing how 5 days of nothing happening can change a perception.

JimboJones99

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Where has this nonsense that we played well come out of?
Full back line was grand
Half back line: blew out of it
Midfield: blew out of it
Forwards: blew out of it bar 35 mins for Richie

We didn't hurl well - we survived: there's a clear difference. We weren't let hurl but to say we played well is absolutely ridiculous. Couldn't win a breaking ball all day and I'd say we delivered a handful of ball into the full forward line all game. We survived on the back of Waterford fouls, accurate shooting when the chances arose and a calmness under pressure in the last 6/7 mins.

Amazing how 5 days of nothing happening can change a perception.

I'm not going to scroll back to check but I'm fairly certain it is the non-KK posters who are suggesting that KK played well. For what reason I am not sure