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Hostage situation in French church

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Comments

  • #392
    Butters1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The vast majority of Europeans must be worried where all this violence is leading to.
    It is building and building in terms of momentum.
    European politics will be affected, and these are dark days for Europe.

    This is my concern as well. We have a US election this year and French and German elections next year.

    While I believe the current governments are doing nothing good to resolve this I would prefer to see them react now, and move a bit to the right, rather than the alternative if electing the far right instead, who will make a mess of this and everything else.


  • #393
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The vast majority of Europeans must be worried where all this violence is leading to.
    It is building and building in terms of momentum.
    European politics will be affected, and these are dark days for Europe.

    We've seen much darker.

    My fear is actually with the future potential western leaders and response than any group of crazy fanatics.


  • #394
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    No it is not equal to racism. Hatred of a race has no foundation in reality, no reason other than a skin color and is completely crazy. There's no reason.

    Hatred of a whole religion, while arguably unfair, has foundation in what that religion teaches and represents, on recent events and you can see the reasoning behind it, even if extreme.

    This conversation came up because people criticizing Islam on these boards are constantly being called racists, when it's a false accusation, and Mod's just defend it. Your response was to try and say 'its the same thing'.

    It's not.

    Hatred of all adherents to a religion has no foundation. Speaking as a mod, if you engage in that, we will action it exactly the same as the equivalent racist statement. Sectarianism, racism, neither has any place here.

    Criticism of Islam itself is different, I agree there.


  • #395
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The vast majority of Europeans must be worried where all this violence is leading to.
    It is building and building in terms of momentum.
    European politics will be affected, and these are dark days for Europe.

    I have said this before the mealy mouth apologist aproach to Ismaic extreamisim but Europes current main political partys will only further fuel support for extreamist like Gert wilders , The Front National and UKIP. Look at America , look at Trump this is waht is coming to Europe if our leaders don't man up


  • #396
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,635 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Musketeer4 wrote: »
    All that means is that we are not as lefty as you!

    Firstly, I have yet to hear anyone dispute the theory that the overwhelming majority of islamic terror is committed by this demographic.

    Secondly, you are wrong. I didn't advocate interning ALL 18-30 year old males. Only those who are not occupied in a meaningful sense, ie higher education or in a proper job.

    I would predict that if this demographic were contained in this way the level of terrorism we experience would plummet. I accept that it would be an expensive and logistically challenging task to keep that man people in the system for 12 years but I they would be better off for it in the end as they can be educated on how to behave in a civilised society. Anyway, if it saved innocent lives it would be worth it. You cannot put a price on that.

    Well that certainly wouldn't radicalise anyone.


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  • #397
    Butters1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    We've seen much darker.

    My fear is actually with the future potential western leaders and response than any group of crazy fanatics.

    Not in our lifetimes.

    But on your fear of future western leaders, I agree completely with you here. I can see Trump and Le Pen (if the left don't pull out completely again) wining there elections. Germany and England however, I think are not that close to going far right for now thankfully.


  • #398
    Musketeer4
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Musketeer4


    dissed doc wrote: »
    If it saved the people now dead - the pregnant woman, the 84 killed in Nice, the 100+ at Bataclan, the staff at Charlie Hebdo, the priest in Normandy...

    If it could have stopped them being killed, would it be worth it? How many have to die, how many more children and women raped? At what point do you find you have had enough death and violence?

    Perhaps you feel distant to it, and can normalise it. Maybe playing video games has made you immune to value the freedom of a terrorist over the life of an innocent. How depraved you must have become, to even ask of the others how dare they reach their tolerance limit.

    Thank you.
    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    How do you propose going in to foreign Middle East countries and interning 'less well off' 18 year olds for 12 years?????????

    The governments of those states should be brought on board to do it. It could be carried out under the auspices of the UN. If the relevent countries did not do it themselves the UN would have to step in and administer the program.
    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    This post is a nonsense.

    How would it have stopped Nice? He was 31.

    Which countries do you propose forcing the internment of 18-30 year olds?

    (can't believe i am asking this)

    All countries where wahabbism is prevalent. All european countries that experience terror.
    he has 31. But you can't keep the whole population interned. You need to draw the line at some point. And it is the case that the majority is 20s males. Sure there are a few outliers, there will still be some terror incidents but the majority will be eliminated by containing this demographic while they are their most dangerous. At the end of the day, young, uneducated, unemployed males are trouble. THat is the case int he mid east and in every estate in ireland.


  • #399
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The vast majority of Europeans must be worried where all this violence is leading to.
    It is building and building in terms of momentum.
    European politics will be affected, and these are dark days for Europe.

    Just imagine what it must be like for ordinary people living in Syria or Iraq with the same isis psychos doing their thing and then Russians, Yanks, Brits and whoever else bombing the living fook out of the place.

    Who could blame anyone for wanting to leave a killing zone like that.


  • #400
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    Not in our lifetimes.

    My parents were born during WWII

    The Cold War was pretty scary too. We were close to nuclear war.


  • #401
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Hatred of all adherents to a religion has no foundation.
    Scientologists? Nation of Yahweh? the Church of Euthanasia ("Save the Planet, kill yourself")

    These people cannot wear the mantle of immunity from mass-criticism simply because they gather in religious assembly.

    I'm not sure where the answer lies, but it seems totally unrealistic to say that religious adherents are immune from criticism. If I join a club that espouses sexism and homophobia, I really should be called-out on that, and so should the club.

    Orthodox Islam is homophobic. Not the extremist version, the orthodox version. Orthodox muslims adhere to homophobic teachings.


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  • #402
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    The nun who escaped the attack said the priest was forced to kneel before the terrorists as they filmed it and they then slit his throat.

    There is not much one can say as that image goes through one's head, except it is barbaric.


  • #403
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Musketeer4 wrote: »
    Thank you.
    The governments of those states should be brought on board to do it. It could be carried out under the auspices of the UN. If the relevent countries did not do it themselves the UN would have to step in and administer the program.

    I see.

    What kind of 30 year old men do you think will be produced after 12 years of forced internment for demographic reasons?


  • #404
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    I don't know how to put this tactfully, but IS must be getting pretty desperate if they're proudly claiming the murder of an 84 year-old priest. A pathetic organisation that, instead of displaying strength and terror, is increasingly showing how toothless and weak they are. They killed a defenseless elderly man in exchange for two of their 'soldiers'.

    Without in anyway trying to understate the personal tragedy involved for the victims of these attacks and their loved ones, IS are actually no physical threat to the West on a grand scale. The real danger is how they seem to be succeeding in whipping up fear, pushing people to the right and instilling a sense of insular nationalism that may ultimately be a threat to how we all live on this continent. Cooler heads needs to prevail...


  • #405
    Butters1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    My parents were born during WWII

    The Cold War was pretty scary too. We were close to nuclear war.

    And my great great great great great great great grandfather was born during the 30 years war. My point stands.

    The cold war, Cuban missile crisis aside, wasn't that scary for ordinary people and day to day life.


  • #406
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Just imagine what it must be like for ordinary people living in Syria or Iraq with the same isis psychos doing their thing and then Russians, Yanks, Brits and whoever else bombing the living fook out of the place.

    Who could blame anyone for wanting to leave a killing zone like that.

    That is a very valid point.

    Then their plight was hijacked by terrorists who joined them, and all the good migrant people are the losers, along with countries who believed they were doing the right thing which for the most part they were.
    Good intentions can be taken advantage of by evil.


  • #407
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Butters1979 wrote: »
    And my great great great great great great great grandfather was born during the 30 years war. My point stands.

    The cold war, Cuban missile crisis aside, wasn't that scary for ordinary people and day to day life.

    Yes, clearly we are witnessing the end of The End of History. The dominating dream/theory in the West for the past 2 decades that Western/Democratic values would spread across the world and that all civilisations/cultures would coexist peacefully ever after is colliding with reality.


  • #408
    Trent Houseboat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Trent Houseboat


    I think the idea of internment for 18-30 year olds is the funniest thing I've read in years.

    Do you think you can lock up someone as a child, hold them for 12 years, for something they haven't done, and expect them not to walk out the door at 31 holding no grudges? It's a sure way to radicalise.
    And that would just be within your own borders. Any regime trying to carry this out would be held up as a target for all muslim extremists around the world.

    I tend to leave these threads alone, because they're almost solely made up snowflakes throwing around false dichotomies i.e.
    -So you're saying that all muslims are worse than Hitler.
    -No you're saying that anyone who criticises islam is worse than Hitler.


  • #409
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    WUM.
    mod: If you think someone is trolling, report them


  • #410
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Scientologists? Nation of Yahweh? the Church of Euthanasia ("Save the Planet, kill yourself")

    These people cannot wear the mantle of immunity from mass-criticism simply because they gather in religious assembly.

    I'm not sure where the answer lies, but it seems totally unrealistic to say that religious adherents are immune from criticism. If I join a club that espouses sexism and homophobia, I really should be called-out on that, and so should the club.

    Orthodox Islam is homophobic. Not the extremist version, the orthodox version. Orthodox muslims adhere to homophobic teachings.

    You're right, it gets hazy as we get down to the small, cultish ones that usually entirely adhere to bizarre beliefs. So I suppose we just have to judge them on their actions? Look, we can give counter examples all day, but it boils down to this. Kill all Muslims is just as bad as Kill all blacks. It won't be tolerated.

    Orthodox Islam is homophobic, so is orthodox Catholicism if you adhere to it rigidly. Most don't, thankfully.


  • #411
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Trent Houseboat wrote: »
    I think the idea of internment for 18-30 year olds is the funniest thing I've read in years.

    Do you think you can lock up someone as a child, hold them for 12 years, for something they haven't done, and expect them not to walk out the door at 31 holding no grudges? It's a sure way to radicalise.
    And that would just be within your own borders. Any regime trying to carry this out would be held up as a target for all muslim extremists around the world.

    I tend to leave these threads alone, because they're almost solely made up snowflakes throwing around false dichotomies i.e.
    -So you're saying that all muslims are worse than Hitler.
    -No you're saying that anyone who criticises islam is worse than Hitler.

    Yes it's an insane idea. And yes Generation Snowflake is a worry! ;)


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  • #412
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    But we do not have racism.

    Which is the specific accusation made here...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100476870&postcount=282

    It's a powerful charge to make against someone, and it happens a lot more than the very hypothetical situation you're dancing with above.

    Peace.

    You're not so naive as to think there are no racists on boards, or perhaps you are. They're extremely easy to spot, they're the ones that will only comment on a crime if it's committed by someone of a certain skin colour or race.
    I would have thought that most of them would wear the terms 'right wing', 'xenophobe', 'bigot' and 'racist' as a badge of honour rather than cry about it.


  • #413
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,901 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Daesh is just an Arabic name for ISIS. It's not some sort of kryptonite catchphrase, or an insult to the group. It's their name.
    There was a push some time ago to get everyone to use 'Daesh' as the official name, rather than 'Islamic State', because 'Islamic State' contains the word Islam, and certain people were afraid it would lead to Islam having some negative connotations :rolleyes:

    It's not some kind of government conspiracy or a false flag op, it's just some 2nd gen Arabs using Arabic - further proof that they are disenfranchised and see themselves as Muslims/Arabs first, French last.

    I think the real reason is actually the word "State", as they don't want to give recognition to the organisation as a state, as opposed to an armed group.

    Interesting timeline on the BBC's article on this. I was unaware of many of these attacks in France.

    http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15ECA/production/_90520898_french_terror_attacks_timelinev4.png

    The French usually have a pretty low tolerance for this sort of thing, and despite their reputation as cheese-eating surrender monkeys, they have proven quite willing to use force when they feel it necessary; the unit I spent time with in Afghanistan were more than willing to fight. I personally think it's only a matter of time before we see French troops in Iraq, clearing out IS from the NW of the country. Not an attempt at nation-building, just kill anyone who shoots at them, go home, and let the Iraqi government deal with the gap they've cleared. If the Iraqis fail, and IS Mk2 shows up again, repeat, until the Iraqis get it right.


  • #414
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    I don't know how to put this tactfully, but IS must be getting pretty desperate if they're proudly claiming the murder of an 84 year-old priest. A pathetic organisation that, instead of displaying strength and terror, is increasingly showing how toothless and weak they are. They killed a defenseless elderly man in exchange for two of their 'soldiers'.

    Without in anyway trying to understate the personal tragedy involved for the victims of these attacks and their loved ones, IS are actually no physical threat to the West on a grand scale. The real danger is how they seem to be succeeding in whipping up fear, pushing people to the right and instilling a sense of insular nationalism that may ultimately be a threat to how we all live on this continent. Cooler heads needs to prevail...

    It's the symbolism of murdering a Catholic Priest in a European Catholic Church in an act of Jihad.

    An assault on the Christian heritage of Europe.


  • #415
    9de5q7tsr8u2im
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭9de5q7tsr8u2im


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Just saw the priest, two nuns, and 2 followers are currently being held hostage in a church in France.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-hostages-idUSKCN1060VA

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2016/07/26/97001-20160726FILWWW00078-prise-d-otage-en-cours-dans-une-eglise-de-saint-etienne-du-rouvray-seine-maritime.php

    Hopefully not yet another terrorist attack :-/

    I'm astonished...

    Do this at my local parish and ill show them cnuts who's boss, i'd mangle them with one hand


  • #416
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    I posted this in the other (which one, there's loads at this stage!) tread.

    For everyone that is bleeting on about Europe being more dangerous than ever, here's a link to the GTD (Global Terrorism Database) statistics for Western Europe.

    http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1000x1000r/2016-07/we-terrorism-upd2016-7.png


  • #417
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    It's the symbolism of murdering a Catholic Priest in a European Catholic Church in an act of Jihad.

    An assault on the Christian heritage of Europe.

    And yet the act itself was two young lads walking into an undefended building and murdering a defenseless old man. So pathetic as to be beneath contempt. Getting riled up by the symbolism is exactly what they're after.


  • #418
    Coffee Fulled Runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Coffee Fulled Runner


    What a horrible evil act of violence. RIP Father.


  • #419
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Orthodox Islam is homophobic, so is orthodox Catholicism if you adhere to it rigidly. Most don't, thankfully.

    I don't think you know what the word means. Or what the Church teaches.


    Here since you're an AH mod, would jokes have been permitted in the recent Orlando shootings thread?


  • #420
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    I posted this in the other (which one, there's loads at this stage!) tread.

    For everyone that is bleeting on about Europe being more dangerous than ever, here's a link to the GTD (Global Terrorism Database) statistics for Western Europe.

    http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1000x1000r/2016-07/we-terrorism-upd2016-7.png

    I saw a map recently outlining terrorist attacks in Europe in the past few years by way of a red dot. Nowhere even came close to NI.


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  • #421
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    I don't know how to put this tactfully, but IS must be getting pretty desperate if they're proudly claiming the murder of an 84 year-old priest. A pathetic organisation that, instead of displaying strength and terror, is increasingly showing how toothless and weak they are. They killed a defenseless elderly man in exchange for two of their 'soldiers'.

    Without in anyway trying to understate the personal tragedy involved for the victims of these attacks and their loved ones, IS are actually no physical threat to the West on a grand scale. The real danger is how they seem to be succeeding in whipping up fear, pushing people to the right and instilling a sense of insular nationalism that may ultimately be a threat to how we all live on this continent. Cooler heads needs to prevail...

    I will use the Tour de France for this.
    The tour is used to showcase France, as they travel along they show nice buildings and name them, beautiful scenery and they name it and they always show the churches and the name of the church.
    Churches in every small village to the large cathedrals in the bigger cities. It shows France is proud of it churches and they want to promote their beautiful church buildings.
    The attack had a twofold purpose, it wants to say to Catholics that they are not safe in their churches, and to France that they are unable to protect their citizens.
    It is an attack which achieved it's purpose.
    France must have a lot of security in Lourdes given the millions of pilgrims every year and in Lisieux due to the very popular St Therese. Lisieux is in the same diocese as the church that was attacked today.


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