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Hostage situation in French church

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Comments

  • #362
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    All religions are the same in that respect.

    We are all indoctrinated from birth ... by a religion or by ideologies dominating schools, the media, and society in general.

    The problem is when the doctrine is telling you to disrespect or even kill others.


  • #363
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    You can choose that yes, but it's hardly easy. They're indoctrinated from birth, brainwashed even.

    In some countries yes, but in the west not really. Unless of course we are calling for the restriction of the more extreme elements of Islam's teachings in the West. Like, if Catholic priests were going around the place preaching the virtue's of honour killings and Jihad then I assume people would be upset over this, but when it comes to Islam we dare not criticise it.


  • #364
    Musketeer4
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Musketeer4


    We're not talking concentration camps here. For one, they are pretty much synonymous with death camps operated by the Germans. If camps are to be set up to deal with demographics who have the potential to become involved in terror related acts then they should be more along the lines of "reform camps" to re learn them about how to be well, normal.


  • #365
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    The western Europe we grew up in - the post-war, peaceful continent that boasted the highest human development levels in human history - is gradually dissolving before our eyes. It's being replaced with an ever more dangerous, polarized entity riddled with an Islamo-fascist fifth column in each of our countries that is only getting stronger.

    We as Europeans are inflicting this on ourselves. It's insanity. The survivors of WW2 strived to make Europe a better place, and they succeeded. The subsequent two generations, riddled with white guilt and obsessed with diversity, are destabilizing all that was accomplished. I am fearful for our children and our children's children.

    Islamic immigration into Europe since the 1960s has been and continues to be a catastrophic mistake. It's becoming blindingly obvious that it must be reversed by any means necessary.


  • #366
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    In some countries yes, but in the west not really. Unless of course we are calling for the restriction of the more extreme elements of Islam's teachings in the West. Like, if Catholic priests were going around the place preaching the virtue's of honour killings and Jihad then I assume people would be upset over this, but when it comes to Islam we dare not criticise it.
    You're describing Wahhabism there. Criticise away!


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  • #367
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    We should be trying to extinguish religion from all facets of Governance including education outside of a 'here look this is what religion is' class.

    It does nothing but legitimise the divide between humans across the planet.
    Although I tend to agree, the only country which really pushes that policy in Europe is France, and this is the country that has borne the brunt of home-grown Islamic terrorism.

    Banning headscarves and rigidly enforcing laïcité is a part of French life. I once had a French housemate who wanted another housemate kicked out on grounds that she could hear him praying through her bedroom wall (literally saying prayers in a speaking voice), and it was damaging her right to laïcité. The landlord had to have a word and tell the guy to cut it out. The point is, what you propose is already a feature of life there, and it has arguably aggravated the alienation that Muslims feel.


  • #368
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    All religions are the same in that respect.

    Err yeah, never heard of an adult conversion... No sir.
    kowloon wrote: »
    Actually surprised that attacks on churches aren't a common thing already. Seems like the place to start if you;re looking to start a religious war.

    Persecution, killing and cleansing of Christians in the Middle east and Africa is rising.


  • #369
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    kowloon wrote: »
    Actually surprised that attacks on churches aren't a common thing already. Seems like the place to start if you;re looking to start a religious war.

    Possibly because Christians are seen as "people of the book" - who believe in a corrupted version of the truth but rank higher than complete non-believers.


  • #370
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,677 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Although I tend to agree, the only country which really pushes that policy in Europe is France, and this is the country that has borne the brunt of home-grown Islamic terrorism.

    Banning headscarves and rigidly enforcing laïcité is a part of French life. I once had a French housemate who wanted another housemate kicked out on grounds that she could hear him praying through her bedroom wall (literally saying prayers in a speaking voice), and it was damaging her right to laïcité. The landlord had to have a word and tell the guy to cut it out. The point is, what you propose is already a feature of life there, and it has arguably aggravated the alienation that Muslims feel.

    I dont think those policies are specifically to blame tbh, its far more complex than that and Geo politics specifically in a certain region have alot to do with it.


    Also it sounds like that housemate was just a dickhead, he probably needed to shutup with the paper thin walls.


  • #371
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Musketeer4 wrote: »
    Well I can see huge drawback is letting them loose to wander the streets killing people.
    If the freedom of a minority has to be curtailed for a few years to safegaurd the security of the majority, I can live with that.

    It boggles me that 4 people would "like" Musketeer's plan to intern ALL 18-30 year old males in the Middle East "hotspots" so they are not "loose to wander the streets killing people."

    4 people liked this lunacy.

    Angela Merkel, foggy_lad, Venom, Widdershins


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  • #372
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Entirely irrelevant though. Sectarianism, racism, equally bad. You can't justify it by saying "it's not racism".

    Throwing around the 'racist' tag at people who disagree with you is lazy, inaccurate, and speaks volumes for a poster's own prejudice.

    Often it is a tactical insult, and has actually massively contributed to having related threads shut down here in the recent past.

    Rejection, condemnation, detestation of Islam is not racist.

    That is all there is to it whether you're a mod, or Humpty Dumpty, or both.


  • #373
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    listermint wrote: »
    I dont think those policies are specifically to blame tbh, its far more complex than that and Geo politics specifically in a certain region have alot to do with it.
    Of course it's more complex than headscarves and laicity. But since you were the one who said that we should extinguish religion from all facets of governance because it legitimizes social division, I'm simply pointing out that this exact policy has not diminished French religious divisions in France it may contribute to division.

    Also it sounds like that housemate was just a dickhead, he probably needed to shutup with the paper thin walls.
    Probably, I'm just using it to illustrate how deeply ingrained laicity is in France, to the point that ordinary people have strong feelings about it in their daily lives.

    In Ireland, we tend to just dismiss it, maybe our tolerance for this kind of 'discomfort' is higher, maybe our tolerance is higher in general, and maybe we're the better for it.


  • #374
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Not sure what you are trying to say?

    One of them was wearing an electronic monitoring tag and had a police file. It means surveillance failed, but it obviously made it pretty easy to identify him and get his criminal history instantly.

    I think it's a reference to the interesting regularity with which id is found close by to the perpetrators of all these incidents.

    Such law-abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of leaving home without their id before they run amok with guns and knives.


  • #375
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    I'm not remotely religious and have had pleanty of critisism for the Catholic church on here but really disturbed by this story. Regardless of this mans beliefs which im sure conflicted with my own , he was an 84 year old man publicly beheaded while doing his job.

    I feel like if this had been a member of Britain first or Pegida who had beheaded an Imam there would be far greater out cry and i'm just not ok with that.

    RIP Father.


  • #376
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    kowloon wrote: »
    Actually surprised that attacks on churches aren't a common thing already. Seems like the place to start if you;re looking to start a religious war.

    They are in the middle east in troubled countries and in Nigeria where churches have been bombed.
    It initially led to Christians fleeing Iraq for countries like Syria and Jordan which are or in the case of Syria was tolerant.

    The good thing about the Christian churches is they have strong leadership who are firmly on the side of non violence. So the Christian churches need governments to fight the extremism.
    A church is a place for peace and sanctuary.

    For me, today was a new low.


  • #377
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    _oveless_ wrote: »
    Ugh who cares what their nationality or religion is could we just not for once? Look its over now can we just put it behind us? It’s not like Christianity never did anything bad look at the crusades and Spanish exposition terrorism has no religion ugh its over now just drop it please we need to rally around the innocent Muslims who will be made to feel uncomfortable now I hope there are security operations in place around local Mosques so they arent attacked by racists.

    Tell me what were the reasons for the 'Crusades'?


  • #378
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    Throwing around the 'racist' tag at people who disagree with you is lazy, inaccurate, and speaks volumes for a poster's own prejudice.

    Often it is a tactical insult, and has actually massively contributed to having related threads shut down here in the recent past.

    Rejection, condemnation, detestation of Islam is not racist.

    That is all there is to it whether you're a mod, or Humpty Dumpty, or both.

    What you've said is fine. Criticising a religion or ideology, no problem. The second anybody tries to lump all Muslims into the same group as ISIS, or says kill all Muslims (not saying this has happened) - then we have a problem, equal with racism.


  • #379
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    They're indoctrinated from birth, brainwashed even.

    What quality stock with which to avert Europe's demographic 'timebomb'.


  • #380
    Musketeer4
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Musketeer4


    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    It boggles me that 4 people would "like" Musketeer's plan to intern ALL 18-30 year old males in the Middle East "hotspots" so they are not "loose to wander the streets killing people."

    4 people liked this lunacy.

    Angela Merkel, foggy_lad, Venom, Widdershins

    All that means is that we are not as lefty as you!

    Firstly, I have yet to hear anyone dispute the theory that the overwhelming majority of islamic terror is committed by this demographic.

    Secondly, you are wrong. I didn't advocate interning ALL 18-30 year old males. Only those who are not occupied in a meaningful sense, ie higher education or in a proper job.

    I would predict that if this demographic were contained in this way the level of terrorism we experience would plummet. I accept that it would be an expensive and logistically challenging task to keep that man people in the system for 12 years but I they would be better off for it in the end as they can be educated on how to behave in a civilised society. Anyway, if it saved innocent lives it would be worth it. You cannot put a price on that.


  • #381
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    Bob24 wrote: »
    Not sure what you are trying to say?

    One of them was wearing an electronic monitoring tag and had a police file. It means surveillance failed, but it obviously made it pretty easy to identify him and get his criminal history instantly.

    I think it's a reference to the interesting regularity with which id is found close by to the perpetrators of all these incidents.

    Such law-abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of leaving home without their id before they run amok with guns and knives.

    I think there are 2 explanations:
    1) I assume if you want to die a martyr, you have not reason to try to conceal your identity, possibly the opposite.
    2) In France and other continental European countries people are expected to have their national ID card on them at all times, and the police has authority to run random ID checks. I assume they don't want to look suspicious carrying no ID in case they get checked by the police on their way to the place their are planning to attack.


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  • #382
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What you've said is fine. Criticising a religion or ideology, no problem. The second anybody tries to lump all Muslims into the same group as ISIS, or says kill all Muslims (not saying this has happened) - then we have a problem, equal with racism.

    would you have an equal issue with sonoe calling for a clamp down on the KKK , Britain First , Pegida , The Sons of Odin or some other Racistis white Power group ?

    Killing them all i agree is extream but Islam is a set of believes which at their core are repressive and discriminatory and should be approached with extreme caution by governments in non islamic countries.

    Cant Imaging for example that Uganda would be too welcoming of a wave of new immigrants belonging to the KKK / or other white Power groups

    But secular Europe is expected to open its doors with out saying boo to many immigrants who believe in a religious core set of principles seemingly completly opposed to our own.


  • #383
    dissed doc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Moo Moo Land wrote: »
    It boggles me that 4 people would "like" Musketeer's plan to intern ALL 18-30 year old males in the Middle East "hotspots" so they are not "loose to wander the streets killing people."

    4 people liked this lunacy.

    Angela Merkel, foggy_lad, Venom, Widdershins

    If it saved the people now dead - the pregnant woman, the 84 killed in Nice, the 100+ at Bataclan, the staff at Charlie Hebdo, the priest in Normandy...

    If it could have stopped them being killed, would it be worth it? How many have to die, how many more children and women raped? At what point do you find you have had enough death and violence?

    Perhaps you feel distant to it, and can normalise it. Maybe playing video games has made you immune to value the freedom of a terrorist over the life of an innocent. How depraved you must have become, to even ask of the others how dare they reach their tolerance limit.


  • #384
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Musketeer4 wrote: »
    All that means is that we are not as lefty as you!

    Firstly, I have yet to hear anyone dispute the theory that the overwhelming majority of islamic terror is committed by this demographic.

    Secondly, you are wrong. I didn't advocate interning ALL 18-30 year old males. Only those who are not occupied in a meaningful sense, ie higher education or in a proper job.

    I would predict that if this demographic were contained in this way the level of terrorism we experience would plummet. I accept that it would be an expensive and logistically challenging task to keep that man people in the system for 12 years but I they would be better off for it in the end as they can be educated on how to behave in a civilised society. Anyway, if it saved innocent lives it would be worth it. You cannot put a price on that.

    How do you propose going in to foreign Middle East countries and interning 'less well off' 18 year olds for 12 years?????????


  • #385
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Walter H Price wrote: »
    would you have an equal issue with sonoe calling for a clamp down on the KKK , Britain First , Pegida , The Sons of Odin or some other Racistis white Power group ?

    Killing them all i agree is extream but Islam is a set of believes which at their core are repressive and discriminatory and should be approached with extreme caution by governments in non islamic countries.

    Cant Imaging for example that Uganda would be too welcoming of a wave of new immigrants belonging to the KKK / or other white Power groups

    But secular Europe is expected to open its doors with out saying boo to many immigrants who believe in a religious core set of principles seemingly completly opposed to our own.

    I know some perfectly lovely Muslims, so my opinion is that it's grossly unfair and bigoted to call for anything bad against them just because of their religion.

    Doubt there's any nice people in the KKK.


  • #386
    Moo Moo Land
    Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    dissed doc wrote: »
    If it saved the people now dead - the pregnant woman, the 84 killed in Nice, the 100+ at Bataclan, the staff at Charlie Hebdo, the priest in Normandy...

    If it could have stopped them being killed, would it be worth it? How many have to die, how many more children and women raped? At what point do you find you have had enough death and violence?

    Perhaps you feel distant to it, and can normalise it. Maybe playing video games has made you immune to value the freedom of a terrorist over the life of an innocent. How depraved you must have become, to even ask of the others how dare they reach their tolerance limit.

    This post is a nonsense.

    How would it have stopped Nice? He was 31.

    Which countries do you propose forcing the internment of 18-30 year olds?

    (can't believe i am asking this)


  • #387
    ISOP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭ISOP


    FURET wrote: »
    The western Europe we grew up in - the post-war, peaceful continent that boasted the highest human development levels in human history - is gradually dissolving before our eyes. It's being replaced with an ever more dangerous, polarized entity riddled with an Islamo-fascist fifth column in each of our countries that is only getting stronger.

    We as Europeans are inflicting this on ourselves. It's insanity. The survivors of WW2 strived to make Europe a better place, and they succeeded. The subsequent two generations, riddled with white guilt and obsessed with diversity, are destabilizing all that was accomplished. I am fearful for our children and our children's children.

    Islamic immigration into Europe since the 1960s has been and continues to be a catastrophic mistake. It's becoming blindingly obvious that it must be reversed by any means necessary.
    its too late, they are slaughtering us in the streets already, Europe is lost I am afraid


  • #388
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What you've said is fine. Criticising a religion or ideology, no problem. The second anybody tries to lump all Muslims into the same group as ISIS, or says kill all Muslims (not saying this has happened) - then we have a problem, equal with racism.

    But we do not have racism.

    Which is the specific accusation made here...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100476870&postcount=282

    It's a powerful charge to make against someone, and it happens a lot more than the very hypothetical situation you're dancing with above.

    Peace.


  • #389
    Butters1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What you've said is fine. Criticising a religion or ideology, no problem. The second anybody tries to lump all Muslims into the same group as ISIS, or says kill all Muslims (not saying this has happened) - then we have a problem, equal with racism.

    No it is not equal to racism. Hatred of a race has no foundation in reality, no reason other than a skin color and is completely crazy. There's no reason.

    Hatred of a whole religion, while arguably unfair, has foundation in what that religion teaches and represents, on recent events and you can see the reasoning behind it, even if extreme.

    This conversation came up because people criticizing Islam on these boards are constantly being called racists, when it's a false accusation, and Mod's just defend it. Your response was to try and say 'its the same thing'.

    It's not.


  • #390
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    The vast majority of Europeans must be worried where all this violence is leading to.
    It is building and building in terms of momentum.
    European politics will be affected, and these are dark days for Europe.


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  • #391
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dissed doc wrote: »
    If it saved the people now dead - the pregnant woman, the 84 killed in Nice, the 100+ at Bataclan, the staff at Charlie Hebdo, the priest in Normandy...

    If it could have stopped them being killed, would it be worth it? How many have to die, how many more children and women raped? At what point do you find you have had enough death and violence?

    Perhaps you feel distant to it, and can normalise it. Maybe playing video games has made you immune to value the freedom of a terrorist over the life of an innocent. How depraved you must have become, to even ask of the others how dare they reach their tolerance limit.
    I assume from your username that you're a doctor? You must know, and have trained with, dozens of Arabic Muslims... these are the kind of people you'd want to see interned to prisons? You don't find it ridiculous to make such a suggestion?

    I can easily imagine why you were 'dissed' in work, if that's the case.


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