Street Fighter V: Despite all his ragé he's still just a rat in a Kage

Sairus · 17-07-2016 1:08am

Combofiend mentioned on stream, "Depending on the number of downloads [of the CPT stage/costumes], money will go to the pot"

Yeah, **** that **** right off.

D4RK ONION · 17-07-2016 2:15pm

Sairus wrote: »

Combofiend mentioned on stream, "Depending on the number of downloads [of the CPT stage/costumes], money will go to the pot"

Yeah, **** that **** right off.

Wow, dat ambiguity...

I want to like SFV (it would make maintaining the app bearable :P) but the dominance of jumping is extremely frustrating. Even that Momochi/Arturo match that is making the rounds has a bunch of Ken jumping in and stuffing Sims well timed anti airs. That and the 8 frames keep me from really getting into it.

Ramza · 17-07-2016 2:16pm

The whole "wow people can't afford $25 for DLC?" attitude seems to be doing the rounds. Sigh It's not an issue of what people can afford, it's an issue of the DLC being so expensive relative to the content it offers. That is why people are complaining, they aren't complaining because of what they can afford. It's also a kick in the teeth to have grossly overpriced DLC shoved down our throats instead of having all the glaring issues with the game addressed first. That should be Capcom's first priority; pleasing it's fanbase and responding to complaints and critique. Instead they are just waving their brand new and shiny DLC at people and sweeping everything else under the rug. People don't want fancy DLC, overpriced or not. They want Capcom to show they are listening to their fans, to answer our requests, to address all of their oversights and to SHOW they're actually listening to consumer feedback.

Also, content such as colours, stages, characters etc being unlockable with FM as an alternative to real world currency is a really empty gesture; FM is so hard to accumulate in this game past a certain point. There has been no word on daily challenges, leaving survival as the best way to grind out FM. Which, as we know, is the problem in the first place. It's one big vicious circle. The FM you get from playing the actual game online is pathetic too.

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Even that Momochi/Arturo match that is making the rounds has a bunch of Ken jumping in and stuffing Sims well timed anti airs

Arturo anti aired really well tbh. Ken is one of Sim's hardest MUs imo. The only thing that's really difficult to AA are Ken's air tatsus, other than that he AAd really well.

Hype match, fair play to Art.

. I do agree though that jumping in SF5 is definitely skewed in terms of risk/reward relative to other games. Some jump ins are really obnoxious too (Ryu j.LK, Ken's air tatsus etc), and 8f of lag makes anti airing more difficult.

D4RK ONION · 17-07-2016 3:07pm

That's what I was saying, that Arturo AA-ed really well and still ate a ton of damage to jump-ins. It's that skew that you mentioned that is the issue.

EDIT: Also, the "LOL, get yo broke ass a job" attitude that is being posted re: the 25 DLC is actually idiotic, and best ignored.

Misty Chaos · 17-07-2016 3:46pm

One most wonder how Sony feels about all this, given they supported development of the game in the first place. I imagine some of the Sony top brass may be pretty annoyyed at Capcom's behaviour.

It's a shame they're handling SFV so badly, especailly considering this the same Dev that is giving us Resident Evil 7 next year ( which by the way, was revealed PERFECTLY at E3. )

Azza · 17-07-2016 4:31pm

I saw only one case of Ken's Tatsu stuffing an anti air in that match and you could just as easily say it due to the angle the Tatsu was hitting from as opposed to the anti air being perfectly timed. You could say that Momochi got the timing/spacing on that air Tatsu perfectly right or you could say it was Sabin selecting the wrong anti air for that situation.

Several jumps in that hit were punishes on whiffed grounded normals by Sim.

With regards Ken's EX Air Tatsu, it was effectively a free in back in IV and its pretty much the same in V. Sabin did well with the spacing and slides to avoid evening having to block them.

Its funny jump in's feel more prevalent in V when there is less high priority jump in moves and less dive kicks, as well as dive kicks being less effective.

Take Cammy, her Cannon Strike is now anti air able with normal AA's something that was very difficult to do in IV, her EX.Cannon Strike is very difficult to AA but unlike IV it is possible where it was virtually fool proof in IV. I feel against Cammy the risk reward for her jumping is actually lower than it was in IV for her and she has to play the ground game more. She can no longer simply bypass the neutral game and great a free in against characters with no invincible anti air.

I also find Necalli's Dive Kick quite low priority and not too hard to anti air.

Ryu's J.LK's priority seems high and it trades a lot but I don't see it win clean an awful lot. I remember a lot of BS jump in attacks back in IV that won clean or did more damage when they traded. Fei-Long's and E.Honda's J.MP, Sakura's and Dudleys J.HP (or was it J.HK in Dudley's case).

I guess the prevalence of jumps ins its just to do with people using jab as AA because its so easy to do and jab AA is not a good enough deterrent compared to the reward of landing a jump in, or as a grappler evening having a jump in blocked. I think input lag has wrecked peoples confidence in using the slower harder hitting AA normals and if it was reduced it would help significantly reduce the number of successful jump ins.

I'd like to see hitboxes/hurtboxes on jabs changed so they don't work as anti air, and anti air normals like C.HP be given more damage and in some cases sped up.

D4RK ONION · 17-07-2016 5:29pm

I guess the prevalence of jumps ins its just to do with people using jab as AA because its so easy to do and jab AA is not a good enough deterrent compared to the reward of landing a jump in, or as a grappler evening having a jump in blocked. I think input lag has wrecked peoples confidence in using the slower harder hitting AA normals and if it was reduced it would help significantly reduce the number of successful jump ins.

This is a really good point, the lag on inputs definitely makes AAs a possibly risk if you're "late" on reacting to them.

Ramza · 17-07-2016 9:50pm

The skewed risk reward on jump ins is kinda whack. For example as Ryu in some MUs it's worth it to j.lk and even take a trade AA from your opponent; you land in their face and get in for the low price of a tiny bit of health. Some normals as Azza said are crazy good for jumping in with. But in general I feel like jumping in this game has more reward than it should and not as much risk as past titles.

Regarding jab AAs, I'm not sure how I feel about them. Anti airs are a healthy part of a SF game, so on one hand I kinda like the option of having more versatile AAs, but on the other hand some AA lights are obnoxious. Ryu, Chun and Necalli come to mind. Crazy priority and hitboxes that lead to oki/mixups with little to no risk. Some characters are dealt a bad hand and have little to no AAs (Karin meterless AAs are dreadful, Dictator has one solid grounded AA and even then it can be stuffed and gets owned by crossups), seems unfair from a balance point of view. But then again, FGs will always have imbalance, but I still feel like the AAs in this game are really inconsistent or too consistent, depending on your character.

Azza · 17-07-2016 10:36pm

I'm pretty sure the Ryu players are looking to win clean with J.LK. Trades are generally not going to be in Ryu's favour as he will take more damage and his opponent will recover before he lands from the reset and will be able to pressure him on his landing.

To be honest Ryu's J.LK is the only normal jump attack I know of in the game with such a very high level of priority.

But I do agree with the sentiment that the risk reward is too good on jump ins.

I would prefer anti air jabs gone, I look at them as effortless and brainless and I absolutely hate the fact that stop cross up attacks. But they the damage they do is not enough to deter repeated jump in attempts. One successfully jump is literally as good as 9 successful Jab anti airs.

The emphasis should be on harder strength normals or command normals to anti air that do more damage but are slower and require good reactions. And unlike current C.HP anti air options they should do full damage after the first frame and not this measly 70 damage they currently do.

Ramza · 17-07-2016 11:24pm

Azza wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the Ryu players are looking to win clean with J.LK.

In some MUs like vs Sim, it's fine to trade with his aa cr.mp if it lands you in his face. But in general yeah, you wanna be beating things clean, which happens a lot. Such a weird jump in normal.

Azza wrote: »

The emphasis should be on harder strength normals or command normals to anti air that do more damage but are slower and require good reactions. And unlike current C.HP anti air options they should do full damage after the first frame and not this measly 70 damage they currently do.

Agree 100%

Ramza · 18-07-2016 11:42am

So what are people's opinions on the top 8 character variety at EVO? Personally I think it's depressing to see multiples of a character, reminiscent of 3s days. 3 Nashes and 2 Chuns...yikes. Even though the players using these characters are world class, it's still alarming to see so many Nashes. As an outside onlooker or spectator it must have been even more boring. It's already clear Nash is a dominant character who seems to be showing up everywhere.

And it just so happened it was a Nash who took the whole tournament. Infiltration is pretty damn unstoppable.

However, so far in general in the tourney scene, SF5 has had quite a good character variety in top 16s. 2 Necalli's managed to make top 16 this EVO, one Ryu, a Karin, and Dictator, Cammy, Rashid. That's nice to see, But for the first EVO top 8 final seeing such a character spread is weird. I would have preferred to see a more diverse character variety. It's great to see Claw and Ken getting some representation though in top 8, and well, Fuudo is doing his thing with Mika, so props to him. But seeing multiples of a character(s) is always alarming, IMO.

chopperbyrne · 18-07-2016 11:48am

I wouldn't say it's too alarming to have the current strongest characters be represented multiple times in top 8 of the biggest tournament of the year, five months after release.

What was the spread in Top 32, in a field of 5107?

Ramza · 18-07-2016 12:06pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's too alarming to have the current strongest characters be represented multiple times in top 8 of the biggest tournament of the year, five months after release.

What was the spread in Top 32, in a field of 5107?

Good point, but Nash and Chun seem very prevalent, and Necalli too. The game is still pretty new but it's clear which characters are becoming dominant. It just sucked to see multiples of 3 of a character in an EVO tourney final. It sucks that Nash and Chun are the most boring characters to watch, especially with it being broadcast on ESPN

Not quite sure how that went down, but as far as I know the live TV broadcast actually went really well.

As far as top 32 goes, from a glance; 6 Necalli's, 1 Ryu, 3 Nash,2 Giefs, 2 Rashids, 1 Sim, 6 Chuns, 3 Mikas, 2 Claws, 2 Kens. 1 Cammy and Fang. Jesus that's a lot of Chun and Necalli. 1 Sim, even though people claimed he was top tier week 1 :pac: No dictator either and he was a character people hailed as godlike too, me included. 1 Ryu is also pretty weird, people hail him as the best character in the game? The game is still fairly new, lots of stuff to come and balancing to happen I suppose. Merely speculation on my part.

Gas to see no Ibuki or Boxer in top 32. A lot of people whinged so hard about them being made EVO legal 2 weeks prior to the tournament. It was obvious it wasn't going to be an issue :pac: People will bitch about anything.

Azza · 18-07-2016 2:34pm

Ryu is pretty godlike, they gave him close to everything.
Defensively he's without equal. 3 frame anti air jab and DP for anti air. The jab is also a good pressure interrupter.
Meterless invincible reversal. Fast V-Reversal, 3 frame parry that covers all angles. A viable fireball zoning game.
Offensively he's quite good as well.
Has good mobility
Numerous ways of landing knockdowns and starting pressure.
Good up close pressure.
Big damage combos.
Has an overhead.
He's only weakness is he's quite poor in neutral with no decent pokes outside of risky sweep but his fireball largely compensates for it.

Chun has a much better neutral game, her pokes are much better. She also fast movement and slow fireballs so she can get in via fireball shields against non fireball characters. She won't win fireball zoning battles but there is hardly any emphasis on that in this game. Damage output not quite as good as Ryu's but her offensive pressure is better, particularly with her godlike V-Trigger. Godlike anti air's. Defence is not as good as Ryu's but its still good. Lacks a little health compared to Ryu as well.

Nash is a damn thief. Raw V-Trigger alone can win matches for Nash he has no business winning. His pokes seem to have insane range even though they are slow. Controls the pace of his match up with Sonic Boom, if you try to turtle he gets a free in, so you have to take risks getting in on him. If you do corner him he' gets out for free. I think his health needs to be reduced by 50 to 900, and his V-Trigger needs a 4 frame window on start up where he's hittable and fully combo-able. As it stands his sonic boom, anti air options, pressure, runaway tool in V-reversal and v-trigger more than compensate for not having a 4 frame normal or a reversal.

Necalli seems likely a really simply to play and powerful character. His V-Trigger is scary as hell. Great offence and defence, but he's garbage in neutral and has no ranged threat at all, his V-Skill isn't great.

Ken, would say he's poor in neutral but that S.HK CC of his is a real threat. Insane corner carry options and great pressure and damage when he's on top of you. EX. Air Tatsu is pretty much a free in. Good defence too. I'd say the thing that might catch him out long term is he has to gamble from negative frames off his V-Skill a lot and once his V-Skill is truly understood he may drop down the order.

Cammy, hahaha she feels a lot weaker than in IV. Doesn't have easy ways in any more or overwhelming pressure when she does, doesn't even seem to have great ways of scoring chip damage. Low health and stun. Her neutral game is good, excellent at whiff punishing, good V-Trigger and EX.moves as well. Solid viable mid tier character.

Karin, great footsies, great damage, great v-trigger, decent mix up options. Good reversal option. AA's are not great but not the worst. Low health character. Just outside top tier.

Sim I don't know how to call. Offensively he's really powerful once he starts pressure but he doesn't seem to have a reliable way of starting the pressure. It seems to come down to random IAT's a lot of the time. I feel like I can just ignore his fireball game. Dies horribly once cornered as is Sim's eternal struggle.

Dictator is pretty much ass at this point but he's godlike at killing scrubs.
Worst or 2nd worst AA options in the game. Third slowest dash in the game, worst walk speed, awful wake up options, slightly below average damage on combo's and noticeable less stun on combo's. No overhead, no command grab, no 3 frame normal. V-Skill usefulness limited to 3-4 matches. Only character that I'm aware who's V-trigger has multiple negative attributes to it and it takes too long to activate and doesn't last long enough when activated. He's decent in neutral but that's largely bypassed by jumping at him, his corner pressure is good too.

Vega, solid overall, great neutral game in terms of mobility and poke range. Decent mix up options with command grab and has an overhead. On the downside his anti air options are poor possible worst in the game and he has the out right worst wake up options in the game

Zangief, honest grappler outside of his dumb V-Skill. His LPD.SPD doesn't set up a loop which stops him from being a cheesy mofo. Has difficulty getting in (when hasn't he) and has a garbage defence. Pretty weak overall but his tournament placing's haven't been that bad.

Laura, not great. No ranged threat, poor neutral game. Good damage and mix ups but not as good as Mika's as her command grab doesn't set up a loop. Flakey defence.

R.Mika, Frauds paradise.

Rashido. Does no damage. is ass.

Birdie. Does lots of damage, is also ass though.

FANG. Is just ass.

DLC characters, mostly ass.

Ramza · 18-07-2016 4:23pm

Yeah Ryu is brilliant in this game for sure. To add to your points, I think Ryu has some of the best normals in the game; cr.mp is an amazing footsie tool and for poking people with; sick range, 5f, +2 on block, links to itself for a true 3f blockstring, on CH also links to itself for an easy tatsu confirm. It's a great button on defense to just throw out, keeps people at bay and lets you get some breathing space. His st mk is great too, albeit somewhat slow @8F. st.lk is a great footsie tool, keeps people in check, great range, can be easily buffered to tatsus to catch people dashing forward or to catch stray limbs.

His st.rh is godly; crush counter normal that moves him forward, catches so much stuff for a CC in neutral. Half screen AA, easy to confirm on hit, and on CC combos into itself from really far range for lots of dmg. Only -1 on block! On whiff you realistically cannot be punished on reaction, it's too quick, and with 8f of lag no one is gonna whiff punish it up close. In fact, whiff st rh up close and then cr.jab/st.mp will CH people so much who are late at reacting to the st.rh whiff and try to counter it. The risk reward on st.rh is really mental IMO. His super is also fantastic, so many ways to land it, pretty much guaranteed value every match. Has a super easy and devastating throw loop mixup. His damage is crazy high, too. His empty low game is unlike anyone else, very SF4esque, and very easy to get rolling. Parry OS to counter VRs is really cheap too, I wouldn't object to seeing this removed. Maybe reduce the freeze on VRs to negate this OS from working? But yeah, Ryu is a beast in this game.

Nash is the trickiest of them all IMO to fight, he has such a solid tool set; great zoning; sonic boom is a nightmare to deal with, so good at controlling space, very versatile. Great pressure, neutral game is easily one of the best; his pokes are fantastic. Keep away game is mental. Lots of solid anti airs, a great crossup too. His VT is madness, it should not be two stocks for what it does currently. It shouldn't be invincible until later frames, and if you stuff it, he should get counter hit, which right now he doesn't. He can counter zoning with his v skill, deny any footsies with his keep away and backdashes. There's nothing he can't do, he forces you to play his game and come to him. Sure, he has no invincible reversal or 3f normal, but who cares? His VT is a great escape tool, aswell as his VR. Knocking him down is a chore in itself, one max range MK scythe or back throw and you're back to square one. His average wakeup is nothing compared to how hard it is to get him cornered and to keep him there. And as you said, having a 4f normal and no invincible reversal is a great trade-off for having such a versatile and overwhelming toolset.

Sim has great keep away and neutral, great anti airs, but is only strong at one range in neutral. Amazing pressure but can be very hard to get it rolling. 900 hp hurts too. Gets rekt by pressure. His damage is quite good, but his VT is countered hard by VRs. One stock from your opponent counters two from Sim and completely negates his VT. He's dangerous when played properly for sure, but I feel like he has lots of weaknesses. In fact I think VRs in general counter Sim overall, and are really useful in the MU. It can be really hard to get in with Sim if the opponent has decent defense, his IAT is gimmicky and can be anti aired on reaction with jabs. He's a great scrub killer but once you catch on to what he's doing, he's a piece of piss.

I also agree Nash should have 900. Baffles me why Karin and Cammy have 900 when they're nowhere near as strong. Maybe buff those characters health up? I'd have no issue with those character getting HP buffs tbh. Birdie could also do with a damage nerf too, he does way too much.

Macal · 18-07-2016 4:42pm

I think I can add more to what Azza is saying in relation to the DLC's, noticeably most of them are mid-tier at best.

Alex: Solid and pretty honest grappler with pretty good footsie tools to boot, and no slouch when it comes to damage either. He needs really need his meter though to really get going. Wake-up options are poor, his V-Trigger isn't much use after activation and has a handful of decent anti-airs but no single go-to.

Guile: Has great footsies tools and anti-airs but his two main specials aren't nearly as good as they used to be, with Sonic Boom have more recovery and Flash Kick only being fully invincible with EX. His V-Trigger can be amazing IF you have the execution and nerves to do Sonic Boom loops in a real match, and I've very little out of that aside from Chris G's.

Ibuki: Hard to say since she's so recent, but it's general consensus Ibuki is pretty fragile and heavily reliant on her oki and resource management. Varying your wake-up timing will really have to make her work for victory.

Balrog: Having tried Balrog for a bit, I can say he's some good tools for most of his normal buttons, (st.MP is one of the best anti-air normals, St HK. has great advantage), but knock him down and he's in trouble with horrendous wake-up options. The V-Trigger seems to serve best as a combo extender than anything else.

Azza · 18-07-2016 5:28pm

Ryu S.HK is good particularly when you have you opponent corner trapped, but I don't think any of his medium pokes are good. They are sluggish and lack range.

Alex, I feel is the best of the DLC characters. I'm not sure how I'm suppose to approach the match up when I find myself getting out poked by a grappler. His LK.Slash Elbow is annoyingly safe and nets him great pressure on hit. His command grab doesn't loop but his Ex. Command grab does I think. Decent anti air options. Weak defensively though. Solid mid tier character.

Guile, no one is using him, don't have much experience at all with him. But the word on the street he's not looking too hot. Has traded in his zoning game and excellent normals for a better up close pressure game and long combos but in hindsight he seems to have lost more than he gained.

Ibuki is awful in neutral and very fragile. Once the offense gets going she's good but she has trouble starting it. I feel because there is so little threat from her in neutral I can focus more on anti airing her, meaning she has a tough time getting in.

Balrog is also trash in neutral. His normals are awful. No armour on his rush punches make him very susceptible to counter hit. No cross up, very slow overhead. Trash defence, outside of a good damage and a good V-Trigger he seems pretty bad. Once people learning to block the overhead he resets I don't think he will have much at all.

Ramza · 18-07-2016 5:33pm

Azza wrote: »

Ryu S.HK is good particularly when you have you opponent corner trapped, but I don't think any of his medium pokes are good. They are sluggish and lack range.

I agree, outside of cr.mp. Has great range and is quick. St.mp is good in certain situations, but as a poke, its crap of course. St.mk has its uses but overall isn't amazing.

The Hound · 18-07-2016 6:05pm

Thoughts on EVO? Did it show if SFV has as long a life span as its predecessor?
I didn't see much, watched Infiltration(Nash) vs Yukadon(Nash). That was a mess but LI Joe was hype

Nutrient · 18-07-2016 6:13pm

Ramza wrote: »

Birdie could also do with a damage nerf too, he does way too much.

I can see certain areas where is damage is higher than regular but I think its in line with his speed, gdlk as some normals are they are significantly slower, and have hurtboxs in places you'd be surprised, his grabs dmg output is fine

Unless he's in the corner he gets no real follow up from grabs, For a grapplers throw to put them half screen away is the trade off you Command grabbing Nash for e.g., puts him back where he wants to be.

Think overall he's been designed as an risky grappler overall, stuff like bull slider, f+hp are all great but risky tools. f+hp is almost always unsafe, bull slider can be whiff punished easy enough. The mans commitment incarnate unless he commits to a Vskill to cover, which is a good and bad thing.

I'd be up to see them rework his chains at expense of damage in areas, The chain cancels have far too much recovery to be employed practically unless you've got a hard read. And again, puts them fulls screen if its m/h chain.

Overall he's just weird, general gameplan is to lame it out till VT builds, activate, and reverse your gameplan.

Sairus · 18-07-2016 11:46pm

https://twitter.com/fubarduck/status/754921916683608064

"Fun fact: Fuudo was required to use the "Story 1" costume [for R.Mika] after his first match because the default was deemed too revealing by ESPN."
-JP/ENG translator for Fuudo.

chopperbyrne · 19-07-2016 8:41am

Surely the underboob is more revealing?

Though it has less ass I suppose.

They're lucky there was no Story Laura in top eight.

K.O.Kiki · 19-07-2016 10:19am

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Surely the underboob is more revealing?

Though it has less ass I suppose.

They're lucky there was no Story Laura in top eight.

"And we're getting word now... yes, yes. OK.

Sorry folks, it seems that one of our Top 8 has had to mysteriously drop out."

Yreval · 19-07-2016 10:51am

Ramza · 19-07-2016 9:52pm

I read those tweets in Gief's voice for some reason

K.O.Kiki · 22-07-2016 9:13am

Kreygasm

https://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/756285250288885760

chopperbyrne · 22-07-2016 9:44am

Did someone say AKIMAN!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y36hxBOgepU

Sairus · 22-07-2016 1:40pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Kreygasm

https://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/756285250288885760

Really beautiful costume yo!
I think having both transparent parts is a bit excessive, but it's still a great thing.
It does bug me how Chun/Cammy/girls have so many more costumes than the male cast.
All the recent costumes have been really nice. Spread the love!

Azza · 22-07-2016 2:00pm

Agree with Sairus, I feel the whole swimwear and revealing outfits sort of sullies the game. Tacky way of making money, pretty much stooping as low as DOA.

The outfits overall have been hit and miss, but above all I think they are too expensive, won't pay full price for costumes that are not for my main, they should €1.50 to €2.00 at most.

The only DLC I want now is Bison's classic SF II stage. Best stage ever, I'd also like to get the EX. colours for him but Capcom have stupidly locked them behind region and platform restrictions.

Oh well at least they didn't mess up the Juri release trailer.

K.O.Kiki · 22-07-2016 7:06pm

Let's just put everyone in summer outfits.

:pac:

Sairus · 23-07-2016 4:56pm

When's Oro beach costume? (NSFW I guess!)

Doctor DooM · 24-07-2016 4:08pm

On the topic of anti airing, I was in the capcom panel when a slightly excited gentleman got up and asked the question about why the AA risk reward is so skewed (the way he asked it made him look like a massive dick, but that's beside the point).

Combofiend's response was basically that people haven't really learned to correctly AA in SFV yet. Apparently we're all supposed to be doing CC heavy AAs into combos. If people are scared by the bigger damage, they'll jump less or empty jump.

This is actually something I try to do with Necalli all the time, however as mentioned by other people the 8 frames do make you scared to do it, and if you're late you're eating a huge combo.

They also heavily implied they're aware people hate the 8 frame situation and will more than likely patch it out post 2016 Capcom Cup season.

When they announced the colours would be purchasable they didn't make it clear FM could be used. There was a serious grumble in the room for that.

K.O.Kiki · 24-07-2016 4:33pm

Nutrient · 24-07-2016 5:51pm

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Combofiend's response was basically that people haven't really learned to correctly AA in SFV yet. Apparently we're all supposed to be doing CC heavy AAs into combos

Damn, I knew I should've been using my 12f su cc poke to AA this entire time

8FRAMES

Nash, ryu AAs work perfectly fine, its the disparity of decent AAs amongst characters thats a problem.

Macal · 24-07-2016 7:59pm

Doctor DooM wrote: »

They also heavily implied they're aware people hate the 8 frame situation and will more than likely patch it out post 2016 Capcom Cup season.

And there's the problem. 6 months at least waiting for a patch to finally fix the eight-frame delay for the sake of CPT is ridiculous, testing the patience of the vast majority of the player base. They should have at least attempted to reduce of the visual delay, even if were one or two frames less, for a patch after EVO. There's always a bit of a lull in FG events post EVO so it would have been the perfect time to have a go at it.

Instead, we're getting Juri and over-priced costumes. Again.

Doctor DooM · 24-07-2016 11:47pm

Macal wrote: »

And there's the problem. 6 months at least waiting for a patch to finally fix the eight-frame delay for the sake of CPT is ridiculous, testing the patience of the vast majority of the player base. They should have at least attempted to reduce of the visual delay, even if were one or two frames less, for a patch after EVO. There's always a bit of a lull in FG events post EVO so it would have been the perfect time to have a go at it.

Instead, we're getting Juri and over-priced costumes. Again.

They were never, ever going to do major game changing patches once the year began to be fair to them. Evo, as far as the money is concerned, is just a step on the road to CPT finals- and major balance changes that, for example, badly effected infiltration would certainly bring about cries of corruption.

Sairus · 25-07-2016 4:04am

Aye, as awful as the 8frames are, I fully agree with them not changing that mid CPT season. The game was clearly designed at least on some levels with that delay in mind. Just straight up turning it off has a massive chance of causing huge unforseen problems.

re: colors being purchasable with FM, I still don't really see that as a proper solution at all, unless they are far cheaper than anything else currently in the store.
Survival is the primary means of getting colors AND fight money. People are complaining Survival is too much of a grind to unlock colors, but even if you can now buy them with fight money, you still need to do survival to get that fight money. This hasn't actually fixed the problem. It's just made the problem slightly more manageable if you really only want very specific things from the store.

Another point is that it's pretty fine to unlock colors/costumes/whatever on a per character basis in FPSs and MOBAs because in those games it's just you alone on your machine that pays the game. However with fighters, there is a strong chance you'll be playing it on the couch with others. Walling off colors and costumes for their characters has a much bigger impact on making the game feel locked off and frustrating.

chopperbyrne · 25-07-2016 8:35am

Nobody would complain about the input lag being reduced mid CPT season.

Daily challenges were supposed to be the way we'd all get Fight Money, but no sign of those.

They should really allow Fight Money Matches in lobbies.

Doctor DooM · 25-07-2016 9:10am

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Nobody would complain about the input lag being reduced mid CPT season.

Seriously chopper, have you ever gone on twitter or youtube?

Ramza · 25-07-2016 1:24pm

Combofiend's point about people "not AAing properly" is really dumb. Not all characters have AA CC buttons. Even those that do, it's arguably way worse to do a very slow normal as an AA in the hopes it will CC, and especially with the 8 frames it's even worse doing said 10f+ startup normals as AAs. Once someone jumps in, the onus is 100% on you to anti air, thus making it skewed because the 8 frames is impinging one person more so than it is the other, in that given moment. In fact, if you strictly used slow CC normals as AAs in those situations, you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage a huge majority of the time. Some characters with great CC AA buttons already have invincible DPs or other reliable AAs, so in places, his argument becomes moot. It's not about AAing properly, it's about the reliability of anti airs in this game, 8f making AAs harder, and about jumping being too good, in a general. Good luck doing AA CC normals vs Ryu's j.lk for example :pac:

I feel like Combofiend pulled a strawman and didn't really address the question being asked, but more so a completely different and unrelated argument. The problem is that AAs in this game are really weirdly dispersed (some characters have too many/cover too many angles, some have decent ones that cover some angles, some have terrible AAs). Ryu, Chun, Necalli, Sim etc, all characters with amazing anti airs, for example. The risk reward on jumping at people in this game is actually worth it at times, in most matchups. 8F + poor anti air distribution makes this so. In some matchups, it's actually smart to jump at characters with poor anti airs, or poor meterless anti airs, etc. It's really skewed that way. AA jabs are also really dumb because the characters with sick AA lights already have amazing anti airs as is, plus these same character have super quick dashes. Lights as anti airs = super reliable in every situation and they net a free mixup. I'm all for punishing people for jumping, but it feels like it's not fairly distributed.

Within the first few days of playing SF5, it was really apparent that strong AA game = strong character, almost immediately. It seems like this is so. Take any character people hail as strong; Nash, Ryu, Chun, Necalli, etc, they're strong on their own merit but the amazing AA ability of these characters is a huge factor into why they're so good.

UberPrinny_Baal · 25-07-2016 2:43pm

Just out of curiousity, how many frames of input lag did Street Fighter 2, 3 and 4 have?

What about 3D fighters like Tekken and VF and them?

Sairus · 25-07-2016 2:54pm

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Just out of curiousity, how many frames of input lag did Street Fighter 2, 3 and 4 have?

What about 3D fighters like Tekken and VF and them?

I know 3S has 4 frames. Dunno about the rest though.

Azza · 25-07-2016 3:07pm

Super Turbo 3.5-4 frames (CPS2)
3rd Strike 4 frames (CPS3)
The Alpha games should be around the same as well.

Bare in mind that those games were played on CRT monitors which had no additional input lag. Were as IV and V are played on laggier LCD monitors.

Street Fighter 4 had many versions, from my understanding the Xbox version ran the quickest at around 5.1 frames, the PS3 version was about 1 frame slower while the PS4 version after it was patched was close to the PS3 version. The arcade version I think was in between the Xbox 360 and PS3 version. However there was two different arcade cabinets one of which had an additional frame of input lag due to have a different monitor. The PC version had the most input lag outside of the unpatched PS4 version. This doesn't factor in additional lag caused by your monitor. Even the very best monitor will add over half a frame of input lag.

However PC users could switch off V-Sync to reduce input lag to around about 3.5 frames if they didn't mind putting up with screen tearing. They could also use G-Sync or Free Sync monitors to achieve the same input lag as no v-sync and not have to deal with screen tearing.

In SF V PC users no longer have the ability to turn off V-Sync but they could still use G-Sync/FreeSync monitors to shave off at least 2 frames off the input lag/

Doctor DooM · 25-07-2016 3:23pm

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Just out of curiousity, how many frames of input lag did Street Fighter 2, 3 and 4 have?

What about 3D fighters like Tekken and VF and them?

360 SFV had 5 approx.

On launch, PS4 USFIV had 8 frames of lag and it was unplayable if you were used to 360. I remember Ladno watching me playing and he thought I was taking the piss.

UberPrinny_Baal · 25-07-2016 3:59pm

So the issue isn't necessarily that it's 8 frames, moreso that it's 3 frames more than we had gotten used to?

The lag struggle is real. I was playing Alex Kid on the master system on my HD TV, and constantly dying on level 1. I thought I just sucked or the game was very hard.

Later I tried the same game on a CRT and breezed through half the game on a single life.

I know that's display lag which isn't the same as input lag, but still, it was the difference between being unplayably difficult and trivially easy.

Azza · 25-07-2016 4:12pm

I have two monitors.

And old but at the time expense and high end S-PVA monitor. Its picture quality is the much better of the two but it has a whopping 64ms input lag or 4 frames.

My cheaper TN panel has 20ms input lag, or 1.25 frames. Difference is night and day.

The lowest input lag on any type of LCD is about 10ms, less than 1 frame.

Dreddybajs · 25-07-2016 11:18pm

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

So the issue isn't necessarily that it's 8 frames, moreso that it's 3 frames more than we had gotten used to?

Eh yeah, aka it's 8 frames. :pac:

The reason people love to spam the number is cause it's outrageously high.

Danonino. · 01-08-2016 9:26pm

8 frames or not the fact you can anti air someone 4 times in a row and it's still in thier interest to jump in until it eventually hits needs to change.

Hopefully big changes come after the tour, get that input lag down, 4 feels so much snappier and responsive when you alternate between it and 5, change standing lights so they don't act so well as antiairs, buff the CC antiairs, buff some characters mid range normals to help them keep space. Too many characters have the exact same gameplan but are shallow and imo boring in that it's the same 2/3 combos/sequences.

They need to allow people to be creative with the characters not have it so locked down to 'this is Ryu, this is exactly how he should be played' with very little room for any sort of expression

Rob2D · 02-08-2016 9:50am

Danonino. wrote: »

locked down to 'this is Ryu, this is exactly how he should be played'

That's kind of his thing though isn't it? :P

I don't mind the jab anti airs; in fact I love having it:pac:

Danonino. · 02-08-2016 1:59pm

Rob2D wrote: »

That's kind of his thing though isn't it? :P

I don't mind the jab anti airs; in fact I love having it:pac:

Yeah ha ha kind of a bad example, I find it hard to explain. It's all so dry. I get what they wanted to do, have the character styles set in stone so you fight the player not the character, so that execution isn't a barrier to an extent but it's led to the game having an overly structured feel.

Like breaking from that defined playstyle is not an option either cause it simply doesn't exist or damage is so scewed to following the set punish/combo/hit confirm that else is gimping yourself for no reward.

I could be alone in thinking that though or Sim especially being who I've played could suffer more than others.

Juri seems fun, has a hard time with no charge (V skill or kicks) getting stuff started but she builds meter so fast there's usually something to go for or change up.

Street Fighter V: Despite all his ragé he's still just a rat in a Kage

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