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Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Comments

  • #602
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,457 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    How can Police stop someone who grows up in a country and one day decides to kill 80 people with a truck?

    This guy was known to authorities but wasn't seen as being a radical Muslim.


  • #603
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    seamus wrote: »
    Do you think getting rid of any religion would be as simple as rounding them up and expelling them? That's pretty naive.

    Tell me how they intend to come here when their conversion rate is abjectly low and the main source of growth comes from immigration?
    seamus wrote: »
    What about the millions of French muslims? There was another time when a country rounded up all of their citizens of a specific religion. They didn't expel them, just concentrated them all together in camps. It's on the tip of my tongue now...

    Godwin's Law, you've lost all credibility.
    seamus wrote: »
    Yeah, invalid example. Kaliningrad became Russian by formal agreement. You think you'll get a formal agreement with ISIS to move all the muslims out of Europe?I don't think anyone said that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

    A bit of light reading might do you some good.
    seamus wrote: »
    However anyone who thinks that this is a simple problem that can be fixed by making "Islam" go away is naive in the extreme. That's the kind of logic a 13 year old employs.

    And what, pray tell, is your solution? The limp-wristed left has done nothing but compound these problems since day one.

    Tell me how it won't work, if there's none of them here. Or do you think Islamism is a problem in Poland, or Hungary, or Estonia?

    Take a look at the Islamist attacks in Europe and then look at a map of the Muslim population in Europe, and tell me if you don't see an overlap.
    seamus wrote: »
    The issue has not only many facets, but a complicated historical background. There is no solution that can make it go away overnight, or even in the space of a decade. You're looking at generations of hard work to fix it.

    Maybe from your "solution". I'd give it a year under mine.


  • #604
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Baldy Conscience wrote: »
    I was the source of nothing. You may have been, fair play to you if you want to associate yourself with those murdering scumbags.

    So we can associate all Muslims with radical terrorists.

    But to associate the Irish with the IRA, why that's just outrageous.

    Don't fall off the head of that pin you're dancing on.


  • #605
    failinis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭failinis


    Discodog wrote: »
    Just looking at the front of the lorry on Sky news. Seems strange that all the bullet holes are on the passenger side. There are none in front of the driving seat. Have they said anything about a passenger in the lorry ?

    Earlier people spoke of an accomplice but I can't see that on any news site at moment.

    I suppose if someone is swerving and driving fast and erratically then bullets will hit anywhere?
    An eye witness said the driver leant over to get something, which may have been on the passenger side, so once he finished driving he moved over.
    I kept yelling at him, I... waving with my hand, to stop and... trying to tell him that there was a lot of people under his truck, dead already. But he didn't give any attention to anyone outside the truck, and suddenly I saw him picking up something like a cellphone, I thought he would call the ambulance, for the accident, but it seems that I was wrong because he just picked up his gun and he started to shoot the police
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-36799172


  • #606
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Spain and the Balkans are now legitimate Islamic territory? They're not reclaiming territory, they want to subjugate everyone that isn't Muslim, just as every caliphate before them has done.
    Actually they are. Their desire is to provoke attacks on the middle east according to "end of days" prophecy which will call all Muslims to return to the middle east to fight a final battle against the Jews and Christians.

    This will be the beginning of the end of the world.

    They have no interest in taking over or converting Europe. Their aim is draw supporters to the middle east and provoke the west into attacking.


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  • #607
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    I am going to France on holiday in the near future and yes I am concerned about going to public places but you know what scares me more it's the willingness of people to label an entire religion and it's people as a threat to others and to advocate exclusion, expulsion or worse as a solution. Have I just time warped back to Germany in the 1930's, do others not see the dangers of scapegoating a whole people because of the actions of fanatics?


  • #608
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Hurtbuthealing wrote: »
    There is not a country in Europe that does not have a Muslim population in it.

    Because they're allowing it, not because it's inevitable.
    Hurtbuthealing wrote: »
    It is the second biggest religion in the world after Christianity.

    And India is the second largest ethnicity in the world, how many Indians are in Poland?
    Hurtbuthealing wrote: »
    While the actions of one tiny sect within Islam are to be condemned utterly , that should lead to the false reflection that all Muslims are evil, they are not, and indeed the greatest number of victims of ISIS are in fact Muslims!

    Nobody is saying all Muslims are evil, but there is no arguing that the religion is a toxic one. They can choose - change religions or adopt none, or leave.
    Hurtbuthealing wrote: »
    And there were NOT 500 people shot in Paris last November.

    Yes there were. There was around 500 people, only 137 died but there was a further 360 or so who were injured.


  • #609
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gandalf wrote: »
    I am going to France on holiday in the near future and yes I am concerned about going to public places but you know what scares me more it's the willingness of people to label an entire religion and it's people as a threat to others and to advocate exclusion, expulsion or worse as a solution. Have I just time warped back to Germany in the 1930's, do others not see the dangers of scapegoating a whole people because of the actions of fanatics?

    Hysteria and overreaction is natural in response to an appalling attack.

    But to just say, let's forget law, democracy and everything that makes us what we are, and go for collective punishment of entire races or religions. That's just way over the line alright.


  • #610
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seriously?

    Our terrorists were motivated by more noble causes than theirs, and that is why collective punishment is appropriate for one group but not another?

    Come off it.

    I am saying that drawing comparisons between the Irish and Muslims isn't accurate. Which it isn't. We're not currently occupying Syria, are we?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    You cannot collectively punish Muslims. It's just unacceptable. We then lose all semblance of democracy and the concept of punishing the offender and not the race, or religion. We throw what sets us apart from more extreme countries out the window.

    To you. If it is what needs to be done to safeguard the lives of Irishmen and Irishwomen, I am completely open to it.


  • #611
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But to just say, let's forget law, democracy and everything that makes us what we are, and go for collective punishment of entire races or religions. That's just way over the line alright.

    What they will do with a situation like this is hand a big fat victory to these fanatics.


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  • #612
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hysteria and overreaction is natural in response to an appalling attack.

    But to just say, let's forget law, democracy and everything that makes us what we are, and go for collective punishment of entire races or religions. That's just way over the line alright.

    You seem to think there can never be any exception to a rule, that we must stick rigidly no matter what. This is how nations crumble, when they're simply not willing to do what needs to be done to protect themselves and their citizens.


  • #613
    rabblerebel
    Site Banned Posts: 7 ✭rabblerebel


    gandalf wrote: »
    do others not see the dangers of scapegoating a whole people because of the actions of fanatics?

    Most reasonable people do.

    Others though, lack the basic wit and intelligence to comprehend the world is made up of shades of grey. It's far more comforting to them to reduce all arguments to a black/white, right/wrong basis.


  • #614
    rabblerebel
    Site Banned Posts: 7 ✭rabblerebel


    gandalf wrote: »
    do others not see the dangers of scapegoating a whole people because of the actions of fanatics?

    Most reasonable people do.

    Others though, lack the basic wit and intelligence to comprehend the world is made up of shades of grey. It's far more comforting for them to reduce all arguments to a black/white, right/wrong basis.


  • #615
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Godwin's Law, you've lost all credibility.
    You might want to read up on Godwin's "law" there a bit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II
    A bit of light reading might do you some good.
    Yeah, that doesn't invalidate my point. Interesting though that you post an article detailing the expulsion of Germans with an estimated 3 million deaths and countless more tortures and rapes, and you're using that as a template of the "ideal solution" to deal with Islam.

    You sound like a lovely fellow. With people like you around, ISIS don't need recruiters.
    And what, pray tell, is your solution? The limp-wristed left has done nothing but compound these problems since day one.
    Ah yes, invoking left/right ideology. Now you've lost all credibility. The "left" as you would put it, have in fact done nothing. The solutions to deal with terrorism and extremism thus far have alsmot entirely been conservative/jackboot strategies.
    Maybe from your "solution". I'd give it a year under mine.
    With a big smile on your face too no doubt as you see cities on fire and families and children being slaughtered in the ensuing violence.

    Like I say, naive in the extreme. Like some 13 year old going through a violent fantasy in their head.


  • #616
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    gandalf wrote: »
    What they will do with a situation like this is hand a big fat victory to these fanatics.

    Everything seems to be a fúcking victory for ISIS. "You can't call them Muslims, that's playing into their hands!", "You can't advocate military strikes against them, that's playing into their hands!", "You can't stop migrants from the Middle East and North Africa, that's playing into their hands!"

    How many hands do they have?

    Let it play into their hands, I honestly don't care any more. Not since I've seen a child splattered by the side of the road and covered in a towel because some cowardly prick from Tunisia decided today was the day he wanted to praise Allah.


  • #617
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,951 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I am saying that drawing comparisons between the Irish and Muslims isn't accurate. Which it isn't. We're not currently occupying Syria, are we?



    To you. If it is what needs to be done to safeguard the lives of Irishmen and Irishwomen, I am completely open to it.

    So what is your solution? Round up all Muslims and deport them to????


  • #618
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Deleted User wrote: »
    sanctions against the majority only inflames the situation.

    And for some reason boards.ie's counter-terrorism 'experts' seem blissfully unaware that sanctions against the majority would be considered a major victory by ISIS as it would almost certainly radicalise former moderates and thus lead to more attacks.


  • #619
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Have ISIS actually claimed responsibility?


  • #620
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    And for some reason boards.ie's counter-terrorism 'experts' seem blissfully unaware that sanctions against the majority would be considered a major victory by ISIS as it would almost certainly radicalise former moderates and thus lead to more attacks.
    Some people cream their pants at the fantasy of a huge violent war in Europe and/or America where anyone who looks vaguely middle eastern is butchered.

    They are in fact virtually indistinguishable from the radicalised Muslims they claim to hate.


  • #621
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    seamus wrote: »
    You might want to read up on Godwin's "law" there a bit.

    Did you or did you not make a comparison with the Nazis?
    seamus wrote: »
    Yeah, that doesn't invalidate my point. Interesting though that you post an article detailing the expulsion of Germans with an estimated 3 million deaths and countless more tortures and rapes, and you're using that as a template of the "ideal solution" to deal with Islam.

    Oh, yes, because that's exactly what I'm advocating. I'm saying we should rape them, it's not like I was giving you an example of deportations working or nothing.

    Reductio ad absurdum.
    seamus wrote: »
    You sound like a lovely fellow. With people like you around, ISIS don't need recruiters.

    You sound like a nice chap too, I'm sure ISIS would love to have you visit them some time and see what a wonderful multicultural paradise they've been building out of the bones of minorities.
    seamus wrote: »
    Ah yes, invoking left/right ideology. Now you've lost all credibility.

    Are you just being contrary or are you honestly going to tell me the Left hasn't embraced Islam whilst the Right has spurned it?
    seamus wrote: »
    With a big smile on your face too no doubt as you see cities on fire and families and children being slaughtered in the ensuing violence.

    Yes, I'm surely a genocidal maniac who wants to see them all killed.
    seamus wrote: »
    Like I say, naive in the extreme. Like some 13 year old going through a violent fantasy in their head.

    I'm not advocating violence, that is purely a product of your ad hominem imagination. I am advocating that we deport them.


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  • #622
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    Some people cream their pants at the fantasy of a huge violent war in Europe and/or America where anyone who looks vaguely middle eastern is butchered.

    They are in fact virtually indistinguishable from the radicalised Muslims they claim to hate.

    It's utterly hilarious, for example - recently after the attacks in Dallas, the home of all things utterly horrendous; the Reddit forum, The_Donald, posted an image saying "All Lives Matter".

    While at the same time saying how Muslims should be rounded up into camps and some saying they should be exterminated.

    All Lives Matter, but some matter less than others.


  • #623
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    And for some reason boards.ie's counter-terrorism 'experts' seem blissfully unaware that sanctions against the majority would be considered a major victory by ISIS as it would almost certainly radicalise former moderates and thus lead to more attacks.

    Who the fúck cares? I don't give a bollocks if they consider it a victory or not. This isn't about their opinion, this is about what is good for Europe and will safeguard European citizens.

    And, for the umpteenth time, tell me - how will they carry out more attacks if they're not allowed into the countries?


  • #624
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So what is your solution? Round up all Muslims and deport them to????

    Wherever it is they hold citizenship. Their parents are from Turkey? Back to Turkey you go. Azerbaijan? Syria? Egypt? Back to there you go.


  • #625
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Let it play into their hands, I honestly don't care any more.

    I take it you've volunteered to go to Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS? Or are you one of those e-Soldiers whose monitor is his shield and whose keyboard is his sword?


  • #626
    failinis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭failinis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have ISIS actually claimed responsibility?

    From the mirror (sorry I know) - not claimed yet.
    It is not yet clear whether the incident was a terrorist attack and no group has yet come forward to claim responsibility.

    Pro-ISIS Twitter accounts have posted sickening posters celebrating the attacks.


  • #627
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I am saying that drawing comparisons between the Irish and Muslims isn't accurate. Which it isn't. We're not currently occupying Syria, are we?



    To you. If it is what needs to be done to safeguard the lives of Irishmen and Irishwomen, I am completely open to it.

    What about just safeguarding people rather than Irish people?

    Your attitude of going outside what you know to be acceptable moral standards to protect 'your group' is hugely ironic.


    If you lived in the Middle East, I imagine that the general viewpoint is that the West have been at war against us (politically, economically and physically) for a century. They're not wrong. At the same time some some Western countries have had to take in migrants from these countries (a consequence of colonialism) and have left them in marginalised ghettos that don't integrate.

    I wonder how much further you'd be willing to go. I mean people here are talking about 'interrogations', internment, bombing civilians etc ... and nothing's actually happened here in Ireland yet.

    Amazing


  • #628
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I'm not advocating violence. I am advocating that we deport them.
    Bless your little cotton socks.


  • #629
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Wherever it is they hold citizenship. Their parents are from Turkey? Back to Turkey you go. Azerbaijan? Syria? Egypt? Back to there you go.

    Even if someone was born in said country, they should be deported to a different country because of their religion?

    Wow, what an utterly slippery slope covered in shit.


  • #630
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    I take it you've volunteered to go to Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS? Or are you one of those e-Soldiers whose monitor is his shield and whose keyboard is his sword?

    I'm studying, and yes it is my intention to join the military afterwards. You can go through my post history to find where I've said such before.


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  • #631
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Even if someone was born in said country, they should be deported to a different country because of their religion?

    Wow, what an utterly slippery slope covered in shit.

    Read back a few pages. They will be given the choice to abandon Islam or abandon Europe. The choice is entirely up to them.


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