Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1

15-07-2016 08:27AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Are you actually that deluded that you think Irish people didn't integrate into Britain?

Again, as I said, the British didn't react to Irish terrorists by rounding us all up, forcing us to integrate, banning us or deporting us.

And, they didn't. They didn't stop Irish people learning the language, meeting in Irish centres, playing Irish music, playing Irish sports. Even the very terrorists they imprisoned were allowed to embrace their own culture, to learn Irish in prisons etc.

To use your language...

"Are you actually that deluded that you imagine they did"?

JPCN1 · 15-07-2016 08:28AM

_Brian wrote: »

It's very easy to look to the Middle East all the time and shake heads about these extremists and blame Islam for everything.

Am I the only one that thinks that the roots of the hate for France et al started with their horrific colonial past and ongoing interference in oil producing mid eastern countries.

France doesn't stand with an unblemished history, many atrosities were committed by the French on foreign soils just to expand their empire. Many French nationals are descendants from these former colonies, they are very marginalised by the General French state and live in ghettos where radicalisation of individuals is easy.
Nothing excuses what has happened, but it's important to remember that the seeds of this current discontent were sown partly by the French state itself and are being cultivated by others with a hatred for the west, in some cases a well founded hatred too.

You might want to read up on the history of Islam. It has always wielded a bloody sword since well before France decided to go overseas. If it wasn't for the likes of Charles Martell and Jean de Vallette we'd have capitulated hundreds of years ago. This cycle will keep repeating.

BoJack Horseman · 15-07-2016 08:28AM

_Brian wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks that the roots of the hate for France et al started with their horrific colonial past and ongoing interference in oil producing mid eastern countries.

You are far from the only one...

But you are wrong.

That part of the world has proven to be well capable of medieval barbarism & massive slaughter without any interference from the white devil.

And if you want to reduce this wrongly to 'who colonised who', then the armies of Islam were conquering & colonising vast swathes of European territory a long time & a lot more successfully before France decided to be colonial.
Strange that you forgot that?

15-07-2016 08:28AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Well it's simple. They can choose Europe, or they can choose Islam. The choice is up to them.

As nuts as someone back in the 80s saying "the Irish can choose Europe or choose Ireland" in response to our terrorism.

buried · 15-07-2016 08:29AM

I honestly had a bad feeling something was going to happen when I woke up yesterday morning and saw the news that Omar al Shishani, the ISIS 'Minister for war' of was taken out by a drone. Back in November, one day before the attack on Paris, Mohammed Emwazi was also taken out by a drone strike. This seems to be the pattern these fascist animal cowards are using to stage attacks in Europe.

Lovely Bloke · 15-07-2016 08:31AM

this constant harking back to the Irish thing is tiresome.

stop soapboxing ffs

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:32AM

_Brian wrote: »

It's very easy to look to the Middle East all the time and shake heads about these extremists and blame Islam for everything.

Am I the only one that thinks that the roots of the hate for France et al started with their horrific colonial past and ongoing interference in oil producing mid eastern countries.

France doesn't stand with an unblemished history, many atrosities were committed by the French on foreign soils just to expand their empire. Many French nationals are descendants from these former colonies, they are very marginalised by the General French state and live in ghettos where radicalisation of individuals is easy.
Nothing excuses what has happened, but it's important to remember that the seeds of this current discontent were sown partly by the French state itself and are being cultivated by others with a hatred for the west, in some cases a well founded hatred too.

Why are you so self-centred? Islam doesn't care what Europe did a century or two ago, they simply hate us for being infidels. This isn't about anything we did. It's about what we are.

We have equality between men and women. They don't.
We have equal rights for heteros and homos. They don't.
We have equal rights for all religions and creeds. They don't.
We have a separation of Church and State. They don't.

It's nothing to do with what France did a century ago or even fifty years ago. It's the fact we're not Muslim. Just like how Muslims are blowing up shít in Asia and in Africa.

Maybe, just maybe, we aren't the problem.

seamus · 15-07-2016 08:32AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Well it's simple. They can choose Europe, or they can choose Islam. The choice is up to them.

Yeah, because when the UK put the jackboot into the Catholics in Northern Ireland, rounded them up and imprisoned them without trial then terrorism and extremism died out and went away and NI lived happily ever after.

Oh no, wait...

Anyone who thinks that the solution to rid a country of radical extremism is to isolate them and dehumanise them, needs a good history lesson. Clueless.

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

As nuts as someone back in the 80s saying "the Irish can choose Europe or choose Ireland" in response to our terrorism.

Yes, me saying they have to choose is somehow less rational than you accommodating this self-destructive behaviour of trying to molly-coddle a group that has shown a propensity for violence against us.

Samaris · 15-07-2016 08:34AM

The problem about talking about "the feelings of Muslims" in terms of banning their religion is that it's kinda more than just feelings. What some people want is nothing less than the removal of Muslims from European society. Ignoring the rewrites to various constitutions to give freedom of religion (except this one), how, exactly, do people plan to carry this out?

Yes, we could close all the mosques, punish people who wear Muslim garb or pray to Allah. Intern them, imprison them, turn a blind eye when radicals take advantage of free season on Muslims to kill and harass them - but then what?

Look at the Reformation period. When Catholicism was banned in England, it didn't just stop, it went underground. Catholic priests risked their lives to say Mass. Ordinary people risked their lives to hide them - "priest holes" are still common in houses from that period. It did not wipe out Catholicism, it just strengthened the will of devout Catholics to not be forced from their faith.

ISIS and its followers don't care about Muslims in other countries, living western lives. They see them as traitors, as not following their mad version of their faith. They will be gleeful at sanctions against Muslims in the west, because it widens their potential base in terms of recruitment. Hurrah, tens of thousands of repressed, marginalised, criminalised people, angry and resentful, to lure into their net. Not to mention, when they have a captive audience, because ordinary people can't flee from them, the ordinary people will just have to keep their heads down and try to survive by not attracting attention ("Why aren't the Muslims decrying what ISIS do?")

Round up the Jews, round up the Catholics, round up the Japanese and eliminate them for what they are, not what they do. This is -not- about "the feelings of some Muslims", it's about history and practicality as well as what's just plain wrong. We've been there as a society before. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

Your religion or your life, because we see you as potentially just the same as the people who murdered your family and friends, took everything you have and destroyed your country. It won't stop these attacks.

15-07-2016 08:36AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yes, me saying they have to choose is somehow less rational than you accommodating this self-destructive behaviour of trying to molly-coddle a group that has shown a propensity for violence against us.

Toleration and retaining fundamental civil liberties is not "molly coddling".

Muslims have not shown a propensity for violence.

Do you know any? How violent are they?

Radicals and extremists have.

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:37AM

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, because when the UK put the jackboot into the Catholics in Northern Ireland, rounded them up and imprisoned them without trial then terrorism and extremism died out and went away and NI lived happily ever after.

Oh no, wait...

The UK didn't expel Catholics from the UK and erect a hard border. Or do you think the Catholics in Northern Ireland just somehow popped up after they all came back to the Republic?

I will give you an example - How many Germans are fighting to take back Konigsberg after the USSR forcefully relocated them out of the area? How many dispute that Kaliningrad is now Russian territory?

That's right! None! Because they're not fúcking there any more.

seamus wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that the solution to rid a country of radical extremism is to isolate them and dehumanise them, needs a good history lesson. Clueless.

And anyone who thinks you can solve violent extremism by holding hands and wishing for a world made of sunshine and rainbows needs a good lesson in common sense. Delusional.

BoJack Horseman · 15-07-2016 08:37AM

buried wrote: »

I honestly had a bad feeling something was going to happen when I woke up yesterday morning and saw the news that Omar al Shishani, the ISIS 'Minister for war' of was taken out by a drone.

Probably not that.

If there was a motivation (and a flimsy one at that) it was much more likely that the toady French President announced on Wednesday that the CDG carrier group would be returning to the gulf later in the year to continue Operation Chamal & the fight against ISIS.

15-07-2016 08:38AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

this constant harking back to the Irish thing is tiresome.

stop soapboxing ffs

Stop making comparisons because it is awkward to remind ourselves that once WE were the source of terrorism, and it kinda gets in the way of making sweeping statements about collective punishment?

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Toleration and retaining fundamental civil liberties is not "molly coddling".

Muslims have not shown a propensity for violence.

Do you know any? How violent are they?

Radicals and extremists have.

Have you not been paying attention to Europe for the last two years? Or the world before that?

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Stop making comparisons because it is awkward to remind ourselves that once WE were the source of terrorism, and it kinda gets in the way of making sweeping statements about collective punishment?

No, because it is an utterly futile point to make. The IRA grew, not out of a desire to destroy England, but out of a desire to reclaim Ireland. Islamism isn't about reclaiming Muslim lands. It's about subjugating or destroying everyone else.

Drawing comparisons between them and going "see we made things explode just like they do!" is absolutely ridiculous and lacks any sort of historical context.

The Backwards Man · 15-07-2016 08:41AM

With it being the south of France, there will be many, many victims with a North African Muslim herimage. But sure don't let that get away with the usual vitriol which is exactly the reaction the likes of ISIS want and some are only to happy to provide.

_Brian · 15-07-2016 08:41AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Why are you so self-centred? Islam doesn't care what Europe did a century or two ago, they simply hate us for being infidels. This isn't about anything we did. It's about what we are.

We have equality between men and women. They don't.
We have equal rights for heteros and homos. They don't.
We have equal rights for all religions and creeds. They don't.
We have a separation of Church and State. They don't.

It's nothing to do with what France did a century ago or even fifty years ago. It's the fact we're not Muslim. Just like how Muslims are blowing up shít in Asia and in Africa.

Maybe, just maybe, we aren't the problem.

I'm not self anything.
Their colonial past has left France with a generation of defendants from former colonial countries who are ripe for the radicalisation into these monsters we see committing these acts.

It's important people know the history of how France is the way it is. People are saying build a wall, send them all back, nuke-em. But people need to know that the problem is with French nationals as much as Muslims from Syria.

Lovely Bloke · 15-07-2016 08:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Stop making comparisons because it is awkward to remind ourselves that once WE were the source of terrorism, and it kinda gets in the way of making sweeping statements about collective punishment?

I was the source of nothing. You may have been, fair play to you if you want to associate yourself with those murdering scumbags.

15-07-2016 08:43AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Well it's simple. They can choose Europe, or they can choose Islam. The choice is up to them.

I'm no fan of religion. I don't actively hate it. I kinda laugh at it and find anyone who invests in it majorly to be a bit dimmer or more ignorant than your average. However, if people want to attend church/mosque/synagogue then leave them to it if they're otherwise harmless good people.

Saying believe this or convert to that is a horrendous idea. Siraj, who lives next door to my mother, has been there about 13 years with his wife and children and works for IBM, just a normal bloke getting on like the rest of us. His missus sends in some sweet cakes the odd time too. Should I turf them out?

gosplan · 15-07-2016 08:44AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You are far from the only one...

But you are wrong.

That part of the world has proven to be well capable of medieval barbarism & massive slaughter without any interference from the white devil.

And if you want to reduce this wrongly to 'who colonised who', then the armies of Islam were conquering & colonising vast swathes of European territory a long time & a lot more successfully before France decided to be colonial.
Strange that you forgot that?

But none of that is unique to Islam.

What I don't get about all the arguments I'm reading here is what we think people's motivations are.

I mean do we think there's just good guys and evil and Islam makes people evil? Like Islam has some hypnotic power over people that it would make them do things no Christian ever would?

Samaris · 15-07-2016 08:44AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, because it is an utterly futile point to make. The IRA grew, not out of a desire to destroy England, but out of a desire to reclaim Ireland. Islamism isn't about reclaiming Muslim lands. It's about subjugating or destroying everyone else.

Drawing comparisons between them and going "see we made things explode just like they do!" is absolutely ridiculous and lacks any sort of historical context.

Teeechnically, that is what they say they're fighting for, creating a caliphate of all lands that they see as rightfully Muslim that follow hardline Islam.

Also, I am unsure that "Well, they're just wanting to reclaim Ireland, it's not personal" was much comfort to the families of the dead.

Unfortunately, terrorism and the mass targeting of civilians to make a political point is pretty much what both campaigns were, although ISIS sadly prove much bigger, much more dangerous (and frankly, much more competent) than the IRA ever were. But it is not a futile point to look at how that was ...semi-solved and see if anything can be applied to this situation. I don't personally think there IS much that can be applied, but it being unpalatable doesn't mean it's not worth an element of consideration.

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:47AM

Samaris wrote: »

The problem about talking about "the feelings of Muslims" in terms of banning their religion is that it's kinda more than just feelings. What some people want is nothing less than the removal of Muslims from European society. Ignoring the rewrites to various constitutions to give freedom of religion (except this one), how, exactly, do people plan to carry this out?

Yes, we could close all the mosques, punish people who wear Muslim garb or pray to Allah. Intern them, imprison them, turn a blind eye when radicals take advantage of free season on Muslims to kill and harass them - but then what?

Look at the Reformation period. When Catholicism was banned in England, it didn't just stop, it went underground. Catholic priests risked their lives to say Mass. Ordinary people risked their lives to hide them - "priest holes" are still common in houses from that period. It did not wipe out Catholicism, it just strengthened the will of devout Catholics to not be forced from their faith.

Catholicism was the dominant religion then, and it and Protestantism waxed and waned. Islam has nowhere near the same number of followers, it's conversion rate will not make it a large religion any time soon. It is immigration that makes it large.

Don't conflate a relatively small external religion with a larger, "indigenous" one.

Samaris wrote: »

ISIS and its followers don't care about Muslims in other countries, living western lives. They see them as traitors, as not following their mad version of their faith. They will be gleeful at sanctions against Muslims in the west, because it widens their potential base in terms of recruitment. Hurrah, tens of thousands of repressed, marginalised, criminalised people, angry and resentful, to lure into their net. Not to mention, when they have a captive audience, because ordinary people can't flee from them, the ordinary people will just have to keep their heads down and try to survive by not attracting attention ("Why aren't the Muslims decrying what ISIS do?")

This is constantly trumpeted out as a gospel truth, that the only thing we can do to stop from "playing into their hands" is by embracing the very people who harboured the fúckers who shot 500 people in Paris last November.

If these people are willing to join up with a death cult just because we're not allowing them into our countries any more, maybe they're not the kind of people we want in our countries anyway.

Samaris wrote: »

Round up the Jews, round up the Catholics, round up the Japanese and eliminate them for what they are, not what they do. This is -not- about "the feelings of some Muslims", it's about history and practicality as well as what's just plain wrong. We've been there as a society before. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

It absolutely did work in the past, you're just ignoring the instances when it did as "barbaric".

Samaris wrote: »

Your religion or your life, because we see you as potentially just the same as the people who murdered your family and friends, took everything you have and destroyed your country. It won't stop these attacks.

It most definitely will. How do they plan on carrying out attacks if they can't even get into the country?

seamus · 15-07-2016 08:49AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

The UK didn't expel Catholics from the UK and erect a hard border. Or do you think the Catholics in Northern Ireland just somehow popped up after they all came back to the Republic?

Do you think getting rid of any religion would be as simple as rounding them up and expelling them? That's pretty naive.

What about the millions of French muslims? There was another time when a country rounded up all of their citizens of a specific religion. They didn't expel them, just concentrated them all together in camps. It's on the tip of my tongue now...

I will give you an example - How many Germans are fighting to take back Konigsberg after the USSR forcefully relocated them out of the area? How many dispute that Kaliningrad is now Russian territory?

That's right! None! Because they're not fúcking there any more.

Yeah, invalid example. Kaliningrad became Russian by formal agreement. You think you'll get a formal agreement with ISIS to move all the muslims out of Europe?

And anyone who thinks you can solve violent extremism by holding hands and wishing for a world made of sunshine and rainbows needs a good lesson in common sense. Delusional.

I don't think anyone said that.

However anyone who thinks that this is a simple problem that can be fixed by making "Islam" go away is naive in the extreme. That's the kind of logic a 13 year old employs.

The issue has not only many facets, but a complicated historical background. There is no solution that can make it go away overnight, or even in the space of a decade. You're looking at generations of hard work to fix it.

Christy42 · 15-07-2016 08:50AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Why are you so self-centred? Islam doesn't care what Europe did a century or two ago, they simply hate us for being infidels. This isn't about anything we did. It's about what we are.

We have equality between men and women. They don't.
We have equal rights for heteros and homos. They don't.
We have equal rights for all religions and creeds. They don't.
We have a separation of Church and State. They don't.

It's nothing to do with what France did a century ago or even fifty years ago. It's the fact we're not Muslim. Just like how Muslims are blowing up shít in Asia and in Africa.

Maybe, just maybe, we aren't the problem.

Surely as soon you make laws specific to Islam you no longer have equal rights for all religions?

So far we have bigger bombs in the middle east to deal in response to a man born and raised in France killing peopleðŸ˜§. Don't think that would have helped much. I mean I am all for fighting ISIS but not sure a bomb in the middle east would have prevented this somehow.

Then we also have calls to ban Muslims and the Koran from the same side of the aisle that thinks guns don't kill people but people killed people. So yeah we can now have people arguing that guns don't kill people in one debate but argue that a book kills people in the next.

Or even the above argument that we should treat Muslims differently because we have equal rights for all religions and they don't.

IrishTrajan · 15-07-2016 08:51AM

Samaris wrote: »

Teeechnically, that is what they say they're fighting for, creating a caliphate of all lands that they see as rightfully Muslim that follow hardline Islam.

Spain and the Balkans are now legitimate Islamic territory? They're not reclaiming territory, they want to subjugate everyone that isn't Muslim, just as every caliphate before them has done.

Samaris wrote: »

Also, I am unsure that "Well, they're just wanting to reclaim Ireland, it's not personal" was much comfort to the families of the dead.

It isn't comfort to the families, that's not the point I was making, and trying to guilt trip me into that when we were discussing the historical context and how accurate a comparison is between the two, is intellectually dishonest at best.

Samaris wrote: »

Unfortunately, terrorism and the mass targeting of civilians to make a political point is pretty much what both campaigns were, although ISIS sadly prove much bigger, much more dangerous (and frankly, much more competent) than the IRA ever were. But it is not a futile point to look at how that was ...semi-solved and see if anything can be applied to this situation. I don't personally think there IS much that can be applied, but it being unpalatable doesn't mean it's not worth an element of consideration.

Is that we have to do now? Tip-toe around contentious issues and solve nothing like the Stormont Assembly in the hopes that guns don't start getting whipped out again? What sort of a country is that?

Hurtbuthealing · 15-07-2016 08:52AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Catholicism was the dominant religion then, and it and Protestantism waxed and waned. Islam has nowhere near the same number of followers, it's conversion rate will not make it a large religion any time soon. It is immigration that makes it large.

Don't conflate a relatively small external religion with a larger, "indigenous" one.

This is constantly trumpeted out as a gospel truth, that the only thing we can do to stop from "playing into their hands" is by embracing the very people who harboured the fúckers who shot 500 people in Paris last November.

If these people are willing to join up with a death cult just because we're not allowing them into our countries any more, maybe they're not the kind of people we want in our countries anyway.

It absolutely did work in the past, you're just ignoring the instances when it did as "barbaric".

It most definitely will. How do they plan on carrying out attacks if they can't even get into the country?

There is not a country in Europe that does not have a Muslim population in it.
It is the second biggest religion in the world after Christianity.
While the actions of one tiny sect within Islam are to be condemned utterly , that should lead to the false reflection that all Muslims are evil, they are not, and indeed the greatest number of victims of ISIS are in fact Muslims!
And there were NOT 500 people shot in Paris last November.

Discodog · 15-07-2016 08:53AM

Just looking at the front of the lorry on Sky news. Seems strange that all the bullet holes are on the passenger side. There are none in front of the driving seat. Have they said anything about a passenger in the lorry ?

gosplan · 15-07-2016 08:53AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, because it is an utterly futile point to make. The IRA grew, not out of a desire to destroy England, but out of a desire to reclaim Ireland. Islamism isn't about reclaiming Muslim lands. It's about subjugating or destroying everyone else.

Drawing comparisons between them and going "see we made things explode just like they do!" is absolutely ridiculous and lacks any sort of historical context.

I think it's utterly about reclaiming Muslim lands.

Sure there's a radical theosophy behind it but the whole movement is based on the Middle East.

15-07-2016 08:54AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, because it is an utterly futile point to make. The IRA grew, not out of a desire to destroy England, but out of a desire to reclaim Ireland. Islamism isn't about reclaiming Muslim lands. It's about subjugating or destroying everyone else.

Seriously?

Our terrorists were motivated by more noble causes than theirs, and that is why collective punishment is appropriate for one group but not another?

Come off it.

You cannot collectively punish Muslims. It's just unacceptable. We then lose all semblance of democracy and the concept of punishing the offender and not the race, or religion. We throw what sets us apart from more extreme countries out the window.

Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1