Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

jelutong · 10-07-2016 08:49PM

4 points from play. That's a pretty meagre return from 70 minutes of hurling.

letowski · 10-07-2016 09:08PM

jelutong wrote:

4 points from play. That's a pretty meagre return from 70 minutes of hurling.

Espeically with the forwards ye have.

robopaddy2 · 10-07-2016 09:20PM

Helpneeded86 wrote: »

I sat outside the stadium in 2002 waiting to get in a car and had to head back to Dungarvan. The goading I received as a 16 year old really backed up my love of beating Waterford.

I love these days.

refer to username

DiscoStew · 10-07-2016 09:21PM

culbaire wrote: »

culbaire wrote: »

You won't win the matches that matter which are generally played on firmer ground. Wait and see. The system will get you through in the muck and slush of winter but will be exposed for what it is in the later stages of the championship. Waterford is fitter than most top teams at this stage of the year. Other teams will be on a par with Waterford later on in the year in terms of fitness and will also be fresher. Tipperary and Kilkenny are only now stepping up intensity of training.

This is not meant to be an attack on Derek McGrath or on any player. Nobody went out to lose today. I know players and management are devastated. Now we have got to dig ourselves out of the pit.

For the last two years here I have attacked ruck and maul/barstadised hurling system being utilised by Waterford. Early this year I anticipated this in the above and other posts though not the extent of the defeat.. I post this in great sadness not to blow my trumpet. It was a disaster today. There is no point in pretending otherwise. We have got to LEARN from this.

This system must go. It has stifled the creative skills of many of the players. The reality is that there are glaring weaknesses in the full back-line. I stress WEAKNESSES. The system has sought to mask this. It was blown to pieces today as I anticipated it would. We had forwards out 40 metres from the goal. Forwards were shooting from too far out. No wonder there was no scoring threat. The style of hurling is sluggish with too much hand passing and soloing into trouble. The short puck out must stop. It is a recipe for disaster. Tipperary striking was much crisper. Tipperary played direct hurling. It paid dividends. Waterford must go down the same route. Move the ball at speed. The ball travels faster than the man and direct hurling will give defenses less time to cover

It is time to freshen up the team with changes in the full back-line and elsewhere. I pity Austin Gleason who is moved here there and everywhere. The reality is that the team is not as good as a lot of supporters think. We still have a lot to learn from the likes of Kilkenny and Tipperary. Now I know I will probably be attacked for this but so be it. Possibly others will have more suggestions for improvement?

Definitely agree on changes to full back line, and I don't even mean at full back. I thought Connors, and particularly Shane Fives, were very poor today. I'd have no problem putting McNulty or Gleeson in there for Wexford. Maybe if Gleeson shoes well for the U21's he might get a start. Might be no harm to shake it up a tiny bit. They did it to an extent with the substitutions taking off some of the established players who weren't delivering. Hopefully that's the kick up the Arse some need and can refocus again for Wexford.

robopaddy2 · 10-07-2016 09:38PM

Very concerned after today. Nice to see some people trying to turn it into a positive by saying its a 'kick up the arse' or a 'reality check'. But unfortunately not a simple as that. The wheels have come off today big time and it was a fair statement from Tipp about what they thought about our sweeper system. No doubt Cody and KK will be itching to have a go at it aswell. Lads make no mistake about it we will not see a change of system for the Wexford game. This management has spent so much time and thought into this sytem over a 2 and a half year period do you honestly think its all going to change completely after one defeat. We have never even showed signs of having a plan B, I don't know would our lads even know how to go 15 v 15 at this stage.
Hard to think about where to next. If the u21s could get the win on Wednesday night it might give everyone a bit of a lift going into the Wexford game. Wexford will be no pushovers, especially given our record against them in championship. The reward for winning that, another semi final v KK. Christ....

PTH2009 · 10-07-2016 09:43PM

We went man to man with Wexford in the league last April and we're well beaten for that period of time going a few points behind

The management will have a lot to ponder over the winter if we go old style in the Wexford game and are well beaten

The under 21 game Wednesday is a Must Must win game for us. It could get the train rolling again and give a boost going into the senior qf and under 21 Munster final

I'm worried a bit after watching how deflated Derek looked in his post match interview. Has he thrown in the towel ???

Walking away from this is the cowards way out

I'd let the players leave there hair down tonight only. Team meeting 2morrow . The non u21 lads can train on Tuesday and full squad training session on Friday.

wats the craic · 10-07-2016 09:58PM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Very concerned after today. Nice to see some people trying to turn it into a positive by saying its a 'kick up the arse' or a 'reality check'. But unfortunately not a simple as that. The wheels have come off today big time and it was a fair statement from Tipp about what they thought about our sweeper system. No doubt Cody and KK will be itching to have a go at it aswell. Lads make no mistake about it we will not see a change of system for the Wexford game. This management has spent so much time and thought into this sytem over a 2 and a half year period do you honestly think its all going to change completely after one defeat. We have never even showed signs of having a plan B, I don't know would our lads even know how to go 15 v 15 at this stage.
Hard to think about where to next. If the u21s could get the win on Wednesday night it might give everyone a bit of a lift going into the Wexford game. Wexford will be no pushovers, especially given our record against them in championship. The reward for winning that, another semi final v KK. Christ....

well as a wexford man who used to love your team from the 2000s i really cant believe how you have competly changed your style of play to this sytem . it started with davy and gone to new levels under mcgrath . wexford also use a sweeper our midfielder drops deep after each puck out . if your going to beat use you have stop chin , and mcdonald who is a beast at 20 yrs old . chin is the general of the team the players around him would practally die for him on the field , we have the youngest panel in the country oldest player is 25 . you should win but they said that in 03 and 14 ,could be a massive crowd from wexford heading as i think our minors are playing at 12 against limerick . i really hope ye can turn things around but maybe not in two weeks , but should be a close hard game watever happens

Dick phelan · 10-07-2016 10:52PM

Honestly the worst half of hurling i'v ever seen from a Waterford team, no fight, shocking at the back, abysmal shooting just crap in every way, While we won't play that bad again sadly i think our system has been exposed today, If and it's a big if after today we get by Wexford it's another SF defeat to KK and i worry it will be a heavy defeat. Another final defeat just depressing stuff. If ever weather matched a performance it was today just pure ****e. Atmosphere was terrible even in the first half i'm never going to the Gaelic grounds again was an absolute nightmare to get to and from and atmosphere is lacking.

Deisegodeo · 10-07-2016 11:07PM

Absolute disaster of a day. Desperate performance from Waterford, really did not see that coming.

System appears badly exposed now, hard to know where we go from here for rest of summer. Would losing to Wexford in quarter final be better than the possibility of a thumping from Kilkenny in the semi final? Hard to believe we are facing these questions now but thats our reality.

I'm never going to a big game in Limerick again, got absolutely soaked, team took a hammering and getting up there and back was an ordeal

hurler on de ditch · 10-07-2016 11:23PM

get rid of Mc Grath now ,before he actually infests the team/this group of lads with negativity that will take years to get rid of ,,three year plan me bollix

hurler on de ditch · 10-07-2016 11:29PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

We went man to man with Wexford in the league last April and we're well beaten for that period of time going a few points behind

The management will have a lot to ponder over the winter if we go old style in the Wexford game and are well beaten

The under 21 game Wednesday is a Must Must win game for us. It could get the train rolling again and give a boost going into the senior qf and under 21 Munster final

I'm worried a bit after watching how deflated Derek looked in his post match interview. Has he thrown in the towel ???

Walking away from this is the cowards way out

I'd let the players leave there hair down tonight only. Team meeting 2morrow . The non u21 lads can train on Tuesday and full squad training session on Friday.

resign he should never have been given the job ,,absolutely horrendous .negativity negativity , leave Derek and if anyone asks what you did with a three year plan .tell them you dont know, one thing to be learned from today is ,you can't play football with a hurley in your hand ,,pure and utter ****e

Clonmel1000 · 10-07-2016 11:33PM

cul beag wrote: »

Waterford win by 4-5pts next Sunday. Don't say you weren't told!!

Thanks for letting us know in advance.

Clonmel1000 · 10-07-2016 11:35PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Waterford won't be playing in any quarter finals

How did work out?

Psychedelic · 10-07-2016 11:51PM

We were ripped to shreds today, Tipp showed how to beat our system. Feels like the cat is out of the bag now and every team will know how to do the same to us. Sad to say but there's no way we can win an AI this year after such a hammering. To have a defensive system and still get torn asunder... **** sake.

Tipp drove in long ball and got lots of men forward, we couldn't handle them. Conversely we drove loads of ball in without committing numbers to attack and our forwards were snuffed out.

RIP The System. This wasn't just a "bad day at the office", we got well and truly f'd in the a.

barneystinson · 11-07-2016 12:05AM

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

How did work out?

Did you not hear? Tipp won, 5-19 to 13 points. Thought you'd have heard, did you not have TV, radio or internet coverage?

Oh wait, or maybe you're just being a dickhead on the internet... Is that what it is?

Deise2016 · 11-07-2016 12:11AM

Terrible terrible day foe everyone concerned.

Really feel for the players and management who have put in such a huge effort over the last number of years, they do not deserve a beating like that on their record.

Where did things go wrong?

The venue for a start, this always seemed a strange and illogical decision.

Thurles may be home to Tipp but it is also home from home for Waterford.

Today would have been our 6th game there this year alone.
We had big wins there last year in league and championship and experience of last years Munster Final.
Would we have had more support in Thurles? For certain.
Did playing in Limerick bring our lads out of their 'comfort zone' of Thurles? It would seem so and we didn't react well.

Derek mentioned the lads were leggy and not really at the pace. Whatever way you look at it a long bus journey from Waterford to Limerick, even if broken up, is not ideal preparation in hindsight.

On the pitch, without playing well we were the better team for the first 20/25 minutes.
Second half was a complete collapse.

Austin Gleeson (outstanding at times for a 21 year old when the rest of the team is struggling like that) and maybe De Burca/Moran in parts were the only Waterford players that even had decent games so any analysis of the tactics or system in nearly redundant in that case.

Would the tactics have worked better if we had performed individually?
Or did the tactics prevent us from performing individually?

Changes for the next day and for Kilkenny.

Colin Dunford and Devine in, maybe for Bennett and Brick? or for Pauric Mahoney with Maurice back on the frees.

A strong spine may also be the way to go.

Connors full back, Austin centre back, Moran and Barron midfield, Shanahan centre forward, Devine full forward.

PTH2009 · 11-07-2016 12:15AM

Psychedelic wrote: »

We were ripped to shreds today, Tipp showed how to beat our system. Feels like the cat is out of the bag now and every team will know how to do the same to us. Sad to say but there's no way we can win an AI this year after such a hammering. To have a defensive system and still get torn asunder... **** sake.

Tipp drove in long ball and got lots of men forward, we couldn't handle them. Conversely we drove loads of ball in without committing numbers to attack and our forwards were snuffed out.

RIP The System. This wasn't just a "bad day at the office", we got well and truly f'd in the a.

Derek needs an experienced right hand man eg a John Allen, Anthony Daly etc. Someone who is a good tactician

Dan (more of the motivator, than a tactics man) and fintan o connor ( not sure of his role) could do with some experience in the management
camp too.

Donal Og being apart of the Clare management team has given there camp a buzz

Derek and Co may go dis year if we get another hammering (something that was unimaginable dis time last month)

Today's defeat hurts now, it's going to even harder for the next few days. The under 21s can start the recovery Wednesday. Wexford are beeming I'd say (**** all to lose, very young squad overall)

tomwaterford · 11-07-2016 12:18AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Derek needs an experienced right hand man eg a John Allen, Anthony Daly etc. Someone who is a good tactician

Dan (more of the motivator, than a tactics man) and fintan o connor ( not sure of his role) could do with some experience in the management
camp too.

Donal Og being apart of the Clare management team has given there camp a buzz

Derek and Co may go dis year if we get another hammering (something that was unimaginable dis time last month)

Today's defeat hurts now, it's going to even harder for the next few days. The under 21s can start the recovery Wednesday. Wexford are beeming I'd say (**** all to lose, very young squad overall)

He needs to park that sweeper were going nowhere with it

It's been exposed and it's inexcusable if we somehow beat Wexford to go up to croke park and kk do the same as tipp did today with out at least an attempt at overhauling the tactics

11-07-2016 12:23AM

No need for such player changes the next day, the 15 named is our strongest 15, just line the team out like it was named, cut out the negative tactics and leave the ball in fast and direct (cut out the over emphasis on short passing and soloing). Just like Brian Cody would do.

windy shepard henderson · 11-07-2016 12:25AM

i dont think the sweeper is the problem , i think the fact that teams opt for 3 or 4 roaming midfielders is a bad tactic , it limits the amount of forwards as a result yesterday fot most of the game in thurles clare had 3 forwards each double marked today tipperary had 5 forwards at all times to aim at when clearing there lines which limited waterfords blanket middle 3rd ,

waterford will have a big say in things yet , they had not played a bad game all year up until today but yea derrick has to tinker with the game plan ......just when it looked like it was working

cul beag · 11-07-2016 12:34AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Derek needs an experienced right hand man eg a John Allen, Anthony Daly etc. Someone who is a good tactician

Dan (more of the motivator, than a tactics man) and fintan o connor ( not sure of his role) could do with some experience in the management
camp too.

Donal Og being apart of the Clare management team has given there camp a buzz

Derek and Co may go dis year if we get another hammering (something that was unimaginable dis time last month)

Today's defeat hurts now, it's going to even harder for the next few days. The under 21s can start the recovery Wednesday. Wexford are beeming I'd say (**** all to lose, very young squad overall)

Mightn't be the worst suggestion but I think the problem is would he listen? Your description of the other 2 selectors is spot on so he has full power over them also so to bring in a Cusack like figure might mean relinquishing some of that power and that might not be easy to come by. Add to that our county board funding an outsider to come in I can't see happening too quickly either so it's not without stumbling blocks but then Davy saw the error of his ways and gave into it so you never know.
I would worry though if something isn't done how long more does McGrath think he can keep the respect of these fellas especially now that the system has been negated so badly? These are intelligent good hurlers and if their mindset doesn't swallow what he's preaching then we have a serious problem. He has some job on his hands to pick them up for the Wexford game and they buzzing having turned their season around after their win against Cork.

robopaddy2 · 11-07-2016 12:34AM

Deise2016 wrote: »

Terrible terrible day foe everyone concerned.

Really feel for the players and management who have put in such a huge effort over the last number of years, they do not deserve a beating like that on their record.

Where did things go wrong?

The venue for a start, this always seemed a strange and illogical decision.

Thurles may be home to Tipp but it is also home from home for Waterford.

Today would have been our 6th game there this year alone.
We had big wins there last year in league and championship and experience of last years Munster Final.
Would we have had more support in Thurles? For certain.
Did playing in Limerick bring our lads out of their 'comfort zone' of Thurles? It would seem so and we didn't react well.

Derek mentioned the lads were leggy and not really at the pace. Whatever way you look at it a long bus journey from Waterford to Limerick, even if broken up, is not ideal preparation in hindsight.

On the pitch, without playing well we were the better team for the first 20/25 minutes.
Second half was a complete collapse.

I was wondering who would be the first to blame the venue. Give over for Christ sakes not like we were asked to play it on the moon. A Munster final in MUNSTER, God forbid. If it was a factor it should be nothing more than marginal but when youre beaten out the gate it is not even remotely an excuse

cornerboy · 11-07-2016 12:43AM

The system is one thing and god knows I hate it but it was the attitude of the players that really pissed me off. Especially in the second half but even from the start, they were not competing for ball and were starting from behind all the time.
If you are going to play with 4 forwards.......which I hope we never again attempt to do.....then at least they must be able to run.......they cannot include a combination of brick, mahony and maurice all of whom were way of the pace of the game.

jaykay74 · 11-07-2016 12:48AM

taytobreath wrote:

I believe in the players, but not the system. It's the system that beat Waterford today.

It wasn't the system that hit ten wides in the first half.

JeffKenna · 11-07-2016 12:49AM

cul beag wrote: »

I would worry though if something isn't done how long more does McGrath think he can keep the respect of these fellas especially now that the system has been negated so badly? These are intelligent good hurlers and if their mindset doesn't swallow what he's preaching then we have a serious problem. He has some job on his hands to pick them up for the Wexford game and they buzzing having turned their season around after their win against Cork.

That's the worry. Just recalling some previously interviews with the players it seems like they would run through a brick wall for the system and almost view it in religious terms (no offence intended). After a beating like that especially considering all the hype you'd have to wonder how committed they can stay.

I couldn't blame the system entirely however. Even looking at the first half the players looked so off the pace and sluggish it was scary. Some of the wides were inexcusable. I'd find it hard to imagine they'd play that bad again.

In a strange way I'd prefer to be playing kilkenny in two weeks and not wexford. There has to be a kick in this team and a game against the cats would be the perfect opportunity to show it.

robopaddy2 · 11-07-2016 12:53AM

cornerboy wrote: »

The system is one thing and god knows I hate it but it was the attitude of the players that really pissed me off. Especially in the second half but even from the start, they were not competing for ball and were starting from behind all the time.
If you are going to play with 4 forwards.......which I hope we never again attempt to do.....then at least they must be able to run.......they cannot include a combination of brick, mahony and maurice all of whom were way of the pace of the game.

100%. Management will take all the flack but the players have to take responsibility too. There is too much 'sympathy' for the players for my liking. Yes they are amateurs but they are all in a privileged position aswell, playing for your county is an honour, shouldn't be a chore. These are all guys who are put on a pedestal, they get well looked after with jobs, college scholarships etc. Some of these guys pushed hard for this manager and remember shamefully ousted a good man in Skully Ryan. Bottom line is they did not perform today. Didn't show up at all and threw in the towel when the game was beyond them. Those are the hard facts

Ropaire · 11-07-2016 12:59AM

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

very dissappointing day all round, horrible result, shyte weather. Funny kind of game cos I thought we were the better team in the first half and only for the amount of wides and concession of a silly goal we should have been well up at half time. Second half we just came to pieces it was horrible to watch. However I wouldnt be as downhearted as others on this thread. I think(or hope) that this was just a blip, a bad day at the office and we will bounce back stronger for it. I dont think its time to abandon the system yet but I think it dosents suit a greasy ball on a wet day as it relys too much on intricate ball control and short passing which is difficult to do on a wet day. Also it relys on players doing a lot of sprinting, which is virtually impossible on wet ground. We need a plan B for such situations.
Not much time to get our heads right and go again v Wexford. We havent had a poor performance like this in a few years which leads me to think it was just one of those days and if we can get back to how we were playing all along we should be able to get over Wexford. Then its probably Kilkenny and then it gets really tricky of course. However if we take a bad beating against Wexford or Kilkenny then the system is probably doomed. Another defeat like that would be very damaging and could send us back years. But Ill hold my fire for now until I see how we respond the next day.

I'd fully agree with ya, today with that wind it was screaming out for a different approach to the usual way we play. Tipp have gone v direct in a few league games and knew how to use the wind as a result, we have no plan B at all and we paid for it today.

It should have been worse too, we should have had at least one red card between socky and gleeson. We didn't though, and we have a full pick v Wexford as a result. We need a performance nd a win next game out to get the show back on the road, can't see us being as bad again and we put this shambles right before the year is out.

Cake Man · 11-07-2016 01:25AM

So where to start with that, depressed, deflated and plain sick are too small of words to do any justice. 07 v Limerick, 08 AI final, 11 Munster final v Tipp and some of the hidings we got in the league in 14 were awful lows but this is right up there with them.

I just don't really understand that's the frustrating thing. We actually started fairly well and even lead 0-4 to 0-1 after a few mins. The first Tipp goal was a sickener as it was so soft but I keep thinking back to straight after that when Shane Bennett was straight through on goal, missed the pick up which would've been a definite goal and was crowded out. How it could've been if he took that chance.
I guess it was a sign of what was to come as our general ball control, picking, striking and ability/willingness to win 50-50 balls were just non-existent today. Yes, the conditions didn't help but Tipp had no problems in the same conditions.
So many lads just never got into the game when we needed them the most, no need to go into detail as the lads will know themselves and will be hurting more than anyone.

Don't really know where to go from here tbh. If we're good enough to beat Wexford the next day, it's without a shadow of doubt another inevitable loss to KK in the semi final. After today's performance and result, I just can't see any way the lads could go into that game and pull off a result. The confidence is just going to be destroyed after today. All of the good work done so far this year seems to be wiped out in, not even one game but one half of hurling.

As much as I hate to say it, the last thing we want now is a battle v Clare in U21 on Wednesday. The lads involved will have some job trying to pick themselves up for that. The only hope is they go out to prove today was just a poor day at the office as others have mentioned but confidence will surely have been shattered.

I think today showed exactly what happens if the system falls apart - the wheels really do come off spectacularly. But to be fair it must be remembered that when the system is executed well (and we've done that a good few times this year v Limerick and Clare x3) it can look good. Not defending it by any means just making the point that if it's to be done, it needs to be done right and have all the players involved and engaged but when that doesn't happen you get results like today. The sh!t thing about the system also is that it's not really equipped come from behind. When Tipp went even 4 points up at one stage you started you get that feeling it wasn't going to be our day. It reminds me of Ireland in soccer, when France scored that second goal against us a few weeks ago you knew that was it. Simply put and as many other have said we just don't seem to have a plan B.

I would say Barron, Austin and Paudie probably the only ones to come out with some element of applause. Austin's two sidelines were absolutely fantastic given the conditions but that's precisely the only positives from the game.

Onwards and upwards.....

robopaddy2 · 11-07-2016 07:15AM

Worrying to see Derek McGrath so downbeat and disheartened. He wouldn t have experienced this type of setback as a manager before. How will he pick the lads back up? At least with Davy Fitz you knew he would be bulling to get back out and prove people wrong. Hed experienced it himself as a player with Clare.

Anyone know what the plan is for the week? Are the u21s free to concentrate on Wednesday night? Trouble is there is only 2 weeks to the quarter finals so ittle or no time to regroup. I just hope its not damaged limitations now.

O Riain · 11-07-2016 08:49AM

Don't think the system can be blamed too much to be fair. Derek himself said we lined out fairly conventional for about half the game (can't tell because was watching it on the telly). The system can not be blamed for lads being second to every ball, not picking up breaking ball, not coming out of the rucks with ball, not catching the ball or bad passes. All of which we were guilty of in abundance yesterday.

I don't think we even played 10% of what we are capable of yesterday and to be honest, as bad as we were, it would be worse if we played 100% and came up short by a few points. The performance wasn't indicative of the team and does not show where we are at.

The only question now is how we get ourselves back in gear. I expect us to beat Wexford but there is a fear there that the same thing might happen again against Kilkenny. That'll be in the back of the players minds, the fear might overcome them but it also might drive them on. Hopefully it's the latter.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1