Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

eeguy · 20-06-2016 11:56PM

Washington Irving wrote: »

There have been plenty of non-book readers voicing similar concerns over the storywriting, don't think it has anything to do with having, or not having, read the source material.

Source material has little to do with it at this stage. It's the microscopic attention to detail on boards and fb and daily discussions.

Things are coming to a close now and characters arcs are coming together. It's pretty clear how the next series will play out.
There's a limited number of scenarios now, compared to the previous few seasons and they need to pull all the stories together.

TheIrishGrover · 20-06-2016 11:57PM

A lot of people are saying there has been a lot of filler this season. I don't see it. I think it's been flying along. Look how much they have covered this season:

Dany's now got her Khalesar and unsullied back
Now has a fleet
90% of Iron Islands cut out (Thank God)
Bran's training
Coldhands
Arya's training (Even if it was severely truncated)
John's back
Winterfell taken
Hound is back
Dorne Done (Please God)
Build up to the Sparrows fall
Those King's Landing rumour build up (Given more weight by Tyrion's speech tonight)

As a matter of fact that's why I've found this season to be just a little bit predictable as I said above: I don't think the writing has gone downhill or is full of filler. I think that they have to tie so many plots together that almost TOO MUCH was done in one season.

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2016 11:57PM

awec wrote: »

All this talk of it being predictable is a bit mad IMO. What do people want, plots that are entirely random?

The show was so unpredictable at the start that now everyone expects the unpredictable all the time. Everyone always wants some alternative to be true, rather than the obvious.

How do you make something unpredictable when the show is micro-analysed to the point where practically every possible plot is predicted by someone well in advance? People have 6 seasons worth of back story now on all the characters, it's fair to say it's easier than ever to predict their behaviour.

Even the earlier seasons were somewhat predictable once you realised that GoT had no issue with killing off major characters at any time. With each passing season the potential to truly shock people diminishes.

The problem isn't so much that the most likely thing to happen happens in the GoT "Universe", the problem is that its now predictable in terms of the unpredictable.

Washington Irving · 21-06-2016 12:02AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Things that are not obvious like why the trebuchets on the ships didn't attack the dragons. Or why Dany arrived at Meereen 'just in the nick of time' despite asking Daario how many days march it was to Meereen just before reuniting with Drogon?

It's ok if people are asking genuine questions, not so much when they're lighting the 'I'm a genius for spotting this plothole' neon sign over their heads.

Those people are few and far between, and nobody is giving them the time of day.
I don't like people making petty criticisms either but making snide remarks over them is just promoting ill will and stunting discussion. Gonna leave it there as I hate writing off-topic posts complaining about complaining about complaints almost as I much as I dislike reading them.

RDM_83 again · 21-06-2016 12:05AM

Example of what I mean.

Rob's defeat wasn't unpredictable in terms of the universe, it was unexpected for the show.
The B@stard killing his father and heir so easily or the arrival of the dragons and Littlefinger in the nick of time was "unpredictable" from a universe perspective but was very predicable from a storyline standpoint.

Mr.Prodston · 21-06-2016 12:11AM

I appreciated the episode a lot more on second viewing I think. It's still no "Hardhome" but it never could be and that's ok too.

Based on two sittings of the episode and skimming the thread I think I've come to the conclusion that Sansa is even colder than I'd thought after the first watch.

Could she have known that if the Vale arrived on time that Ramsey would have accepted the siege and no battle would take place?

That's huge if it's why she didn't tell Jon about Baelish. She accepted the execution of her brother and the slaughter of say 7,000 men for the potential element of surprise?

Those evil little smiles were excellently pulled off too.

Now why do I feel (aside from Rickon) did things go a little too well for the Starks in that episode?

super_furry · 21-06-2016 12:12AM

Any idea where Ghost was for the battle?

ixoy · 21-06-2016 12:15AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The B@stard killing his father and heir so easily or the arrival of the dragons and Littlefinger in the nick of time was "unpredictable" from a universe perspective but was very predicable from a storyline standpoint.

What would you have done?Would you have killed Jon again for example? Have Dany force to make a more levelled pact with the Masters rather than forcing the way she did? Would you rather a more interesting pact with Littlefinger that incurs a debt later on?
I know what you're driving at, but it'd also become predictable if you kept doing the unpredictable as it were. Subverting tropes for the sake of them is difficult to do without seeming forced.

Washington Irving · 21-06-2016 12:15AM

super_furry wrote: »

Any idea where Ghost was for the battle?

With the CGI budget after the dragons' scene.

eeguy · 21-06-2016 12:18AM

Now we know where all the money went.

Billy86 · 21-06-2016 12:48AM

Given that the Boltons & co are now gone, the Starks & co are defeated, and those who sat out are likely not too powerful if they felt the need to do so, Littlefinger essentially has the most power in the north, militarily at least. The timing was convenient, which has been a bit too common on GOT but would make sense from Littlefinger's end of things, as he is very much corrupt and scheming. One of my favourite lines in the entire series is...

Which made some of the shots very interesting to me, even if they were a little obligatory for the scene. The last one in particular though...

...granted, there is no fire but the mist does look like smoke somewhat, and the imagery is what Varys was getting at - a dead, broken hellscape of a world barely worth living in, never mind ruling over.

Nicely done, if Littlefinger is going to make a power move in the aftermath.

21-06-2016 12:56AM

Great episode

Dragons class
Tyrion stopping crazy daenerys great to watch the politics at play.

Baxtardbowl

Great dialogue and beautifully shot.
Poor Davos
Poor Wun Wun but understandable
Ah Rickon always zigzag
Made sense Jon lost it and tormund hoped it wouldn't.
That fight was intense! Raw, claustrophobic just epic.
Liked the end to Ramsey even Jon's restraint.
(Kit seems to have been watching a lot of Sean been i think I saw a few mannerisms)

2 things bugged me
1 no ghost, I don't get the story reason for him to be with Jon unless he was guarding Sansa.
2 that no one turned on Ramsey like he openly made all his men fight by not accepting the one on one fight. Then he willingly showered arrows on other houses before his men did the safe bit.

J. Marston · 21-06-2016 01:09AM

Ghost was back at camp curled up by the fire. He would've been mince-meat in seconds in that battle.

Dyr · 21-06-2016 01:09AM

I'm guessing old Ramsey of Winalots reference to Sansa having a part of him now is that she's become ruthless and slightly psychotic thanks to him ( and Littlefinger)

She accepted that Rickon was fooked
She was willing to let John and all the rest die as bait to lure in the bolton army for the the vale cavalry.
She feed Ramsey to his own dogs

That or shes up the duff

endacl · 21-06-2016 01:36AM

Sansa Stark.

Bad Ass.

That is all.

Yakuza · 21-06-2016 01:56AM

rawn wrote: »

I think his grooming of Sansa will eventually be his undoing. He needs her to be smart to survive for his benefit, but he won't outsmart her forever.

I really hope she shoves a dagger up his gurning chin and out the top of his head. He started all this **** by poisoning Jon Arryn and writing to Catelyn and telling her "it was the Lannisters wot done it". That would be some overdue justice.

ThunbergsAreGo · 21-06-2016 06:47AM

stevenmu wrote: »

I also agree with a lot of people that the show seems to be lacking something this season, a lot of things do seem hollow and lacking in depth.

Partly, I wonder is it because GRRM has stepped back from the show to focus on the books and left the show's writers to their own devices.

But I also wonder is it because we're so used to having read the books before we watch the show. The books are packed full of nuance and detail, which the show doesn't have the ability to deliver. Normally, when we've read the book first, we already have the nuance and detail, and can forgive the shortcuts that the show has to take. But this season, we don't have the knowledge from the books to back up what we see on screen, so the shortcuts they take are more jarring.

I do think that is alot of it. Not enough time in 10 episodes and before we could fill in our own blanks with concrete ish info

Also. Alot of the theories are well thought out that I'm sad when they don't happen

Ben Gadot · 21-06-2016 07:15AM

Washington Irving wrote: »

With the CGI budget after the dragons' scene.

Nevermind the dragons those hounds stole the show. I'm going to miss their howling when they know dinner is about to be served. :pac:

They should keep them around as back up for Ghost when he needs to take on some WW, Summer could have done with them sure.

Grudaire · 21-06-2016 08:26AM

Really epic episode, the entire season has been building to it, but I was genuinely excited watching it - it's been a while since I got that feeling

Did anyone expect a midnight raid by Ramsey - they made such an emphasis on fighting "tomorrow", and dieing "tomorrow" I felt it was ripe for a late night attack when Thormund was pissed and Davos has his trousers around his ankles

Daith · 21-06-2016 08:45AM

Ben Gadot wrote: »

They should keep them around as back up for Ghost when he needs to take on some WW, Summer could have done with them sure.

I kinda just wanted to see Sansa arrive into Winterfell with Ghost at her side. The imagery of seeing a Lannister/Bolton a Stark arrive back with a direwolf would have been nice.

Tipsy McSwagger · 21-06-2016 09:15AM

First of all I really enjoyed the episode, it was epic television. Ramsey dying was bittersweet though. On one hand he deserved it and it was always going to happen, but on the other hand he was the best character in the history of the show IMO.

The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable. Nobody good is dying anymore apart from some side characters. Jon should have died a dozen times last night, and it would have been fitting for the great Bolton Bastard to have killed him before Sansa got her wish and set his hounds on him.

Mr Freeze · 21-06-2016 09:24AM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable.

This is my main issue too.

It was very entertaining TV, it was an excellent episode but there were no surprises, just that Davos and Thormund lived, it was extremely predictable, something GoT never was until they went off book.

I really see none of it playing out in the book like this, The Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire will be totally different in the books, and are already shaping up to be much different.

Ave Sodalis · 21-06-2016 09:26AM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote:

The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable. Nobody good is dying anymore apart from some side characters. Jon should have died a dozen times last night, and it would have been fitting for the great Bolton Bastard to have killed him before Sansa got her wish and set his hounds on him.

They went into how Jon suvived in the "inside the episode" (there was 10 mins pinned onto the end of the stream I got). They were trying to show how in a battle, skill only gets you so far and most people survive by shear dumb luck and by the skin of their teeth.

Surely Ramsey killing Jon would also be considered predictable?

Jelle1880 · 21-06-2016 09:36AM

While the action was fantastic and the camera work some of the best I've ever seen on TV, some of the story was predictable imo.

Why did Sansa not allow the army of the Vale to join forces earlier ? The predictable 'arriving just in time to save the day' trope was annoying.
And Jon basically sacrificed all of his troops because Ramsay managed to piss him off by killing Rickon (which Sansa warned him about), so far for the great commander.

eeguy · 21-06-2016 09:36AM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable. Nobody good is dying anymore apart from some side characterst.

Everybody good has already died. Why would Jon die? He's the main character in Westeros.

Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Baloney Grey joy, Osha and Allister Thorne have died this season. All got plenty of screen time in the last few seasons.

The more people they kill, the less story they can tell as it's too late to introduce new principal characters and villains.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Why did Sansa not allow the army of the Vale to join forces earlier ? The predictable 'arriving just in time to save the day' trope was annoying.
And Jon basically sacrificed all of his troops because Ramsay managed to piss him off by killing Rickon (which Sansa warned him about), so far for the great commander.

. She had already left before they agreed on the fight in the morning. Maybe she wanted the northern army smashed so the Vale is the most powerful force in the North. Maybe she hates wildlings.

In defence of Jon, he's not the most rational guy and regularly let's his emotions gets the better of him. That's why Ramsay pulled that stunt in the first place. He KNEW Jon would bite.

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 09:49AM

eeguy wrote: »

Now we know where all the money went.

I jsut did some mental arithmatic on the battle scene. They say they had 500 extras and were shooting for 25 days. On basic pay for extras (approx £120 a day) that works out at about £1.5 million. :eek:

That's without added pay for 'featured shots', food and wardrobe etc.

CMOTDibbler · 21-06-2016 09:53AM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Why did Sansa not allow the army of the Vale to join forces earlier ? The predictable 'arriving just in time to save the day' trope was annoying.
And Jon basically sacrificed all of his troops because Ramsay managed to piss him off by killing Rickon (which Sansa warned him about), so far for the great commander.

The prevailing opinion and clearly not 'predictable'

was that Sansa didn't trust Jon not to be baited by Ramsay (she was right) and lead them all into a trap (Knights of the Vale included).

So she waited for Ramsay to commit all his forces before unleashing the Knights.

FURET · 21-06-2016 09:59AM

Does it matter that we never saw who opened the kennel doors? Yes. Yes it does matter. Ramsey was sitting there for how long with the kennel doors wide open. And nothing happened. And then purely for dramatic effect, the hounds slowly emerge just when Sansa would want them to. This makes no logical sense. If it made logical sense, no one would mind that we never saw the doors being opened.

My benchmark for excellence is The Sopranos. That show was driven by conversation and details. In season 3, there's a 10-second scene where Tony comes home late after being with a mistress. He goes down to his basement, smells perfume on his clothes, and puts them into the washing machine before going up to his wife. 10 seconds.

A whole 10 or 11 episodes later, one day Carmela is at the washing machine, takes one of Tony's shirts out of the machine and smells it. Boom! This scene was also around 10 seconds long. This is the sort of simple detail missing from GoT.

Another annoying thing for me is the Night King's name. Who established his name and when? I get that the Raven may have told Bran off-screen; but how do Jon Davos know it too? And Why would Lyanna Mormont believe Davos when he tells her the Dead are coming? Are we to assume that the Old Bear wrote a letter or something about his own brush with a wight? OK - well put it in! Less rubbish jokes at Mereen please, and more detail. The Devil is in the detail. And characters' reactions to details reveal a lot about the character and helps them to grow.

Sleepy · 21-06-2016 10:00AM

I'd share a lot of the complaints being aired:

Where was Ghost? At the very least, we should have had him shown guarding Sansa.
Why was Rickon so stupid while under bow fire? He didn't alter his course or his pace once...
Jon played directly into Ramsey's plan, despite being warned about that by Sansa.
Why wouldn't Wun Wun arm himself with something?
Sansa continued her pretty idiot arc by allowed her entire army to be butchered rather than tell Jon they had heavy cavalry support. The Starks may have Winterfell, but they've no male line left and we don't even know if they have enough troops left to hold the castle. She's Littlefinger's puppet and there's no good reason for the other Northern houses to bend the knee to her.

Amazingly, my favourite part of this week's episode was Mereen. The dragons attacking the ships looked epic and Tyrion and Grey Worm finally got a good scene. Like the Yara / Danaerys dynamic too.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 21-06-2016 10:14AM

awec wrote: »

All this talk of it being predictable is a bit mad IMO. What do people want, plots that are entirely random?

Nah, I want things that make sense.

The Battle of the Bastards should have been a walkover for Jon, were things as they appeared. An alliance with House Arryn was a straightforward move, but it had the drawbacks that Winterfell was so far away and the Boltons held Moat Cailin (which we had been told repeatedly were 'the keys to the north').

If Ramsey was giving battle quickly, hoping that Jon could be defeated before House Arryn showed up that would be great. The Bolton men shouldn't have been caught out in the open though: the Umbers, Karstarks and Boltons know the north and would have had advanced warning about the arrival of the knights of the Vale. Given the setup Ramsey would have withdrawn to Winterfell with a substantial body of soldiers intact. Would he have eventually lost a long drawn out siege with Jon emerging as victor? Probably, but it wouldn't be tied up in one episode.

If you wanted it to be tied up in one episode, Jon would have had to have laid a trap that Ramsey could not extricate himself from when the Knights of the Vale arrived.

I want both heroes and villains to behave smart. Both sides in the Battle of the Blackwater and at the Battle of Castle Black behaved intelligently. That was some amazing television (even if the cinematography was more limited in the fighting scenes of Blackwater). I hadn't read the books by the time Blackwater rolled around, making that episode real edge of my seat action.

I didn't fear for Jon in this battle. Nor Rickon (as his days were numbered). Davos' fate was in doubt, but he predominantly stayed back from the action. I thought Thormund might bite the dust. Yes, I can say that the only character for whom I was anxious was Thormund.

Why if, in a show so unpredictable, was a predictable episode so predictable? Perhaps because the show hasn't been unpredictable for some time. I was wrong about how long things would take, but all the major events of this season I anticipated by the end of last season, excluding some minor details (I thought Theon would be dead by this stage in some heroic gesture, and I didn't see any of the Hodor stuff coming).

Come on, this is meant to be the pinnacle of the series. I mean, it gets a 10/10 automatically because we see Ramsey's smug face being ripped off by his own hounds. The price was unremitting scenes of his torture, rape and murder of people to get us in the mood for this. If this victory had happened with Stannis - now that wouldn't have been obvious, because Stannis has hardly been developed as a hero. But the plot armour of both Ramsey and Jon have been too strong for too long - they should have been surviving based on their wits, not because one is a hero and the other a villain. Arrows changed direction mid-flight to avoid Jon, while Ramsey jumped into a battle half-naked against elite Greyjoy reavers and emerged without a scratch a couple of seasons ago.

Similarly, no fight that Daenerys gets into has any tension: she can just wave her hand and the screen writers will do the rest. At least Jon has to work up a sweat.

Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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