Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

jaded_pause · 20-06-2016 01:19PM

Now, next week I want to see Tormund and Brienne reunite.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 01:20PM

bur wrote: »

The production of the battle was great but the story it told, very cliched. The way they got surrounded and then pinned back was way too easy. Davos hanging back with his archers doing nothing until it was too late to do anything. The Vale riding in last minute, although that was most definitely tactical on Littlefingers part.

The initial plan was for them to get Ramsay to attack first and that's why the archers were held back. Once the rest of the army charged, Davos couldn't let loose the archers for fear of hitting their own men, so he eventually had to get them to attack as well. It was a complete clusterfukc really.

Ben Gadot · 20-06-2016 01:23PM

Where did that little bitch Karstark get off to?

I have to commend Sophie Turner, Iwan Rheon and Kit Harrington, all 3 were excellent. I'm particularly happy for the latter as he seems to get a lot of grief from some quarters of the fanbase. That shot of him standing alone, sword in hand, staring down the Bolton charge gave me goosebumps. If I was in the Bolton charge I would have impaled myself out of shame. :pac:

WoolyJumper · 20-06-2016 02:09PM

I was one of those really hoping for a Lady Stoneheart return, but who needs LS when you have Sansa Stoneheart. I'm not normally one for long drawn out battle scenes but this episode was fantastic.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 02:15PM

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Where did that little bitch Karstark get off to?

I have to commend Sophie Turner, Iwan Rheon and Kit Harrington, all 3 were excellent. I'm particularly happy for the latter as he seems to get a lot of grief from some quarters of the fanbase. That shot of him standing alone, sword in hand, staring down the Bolton charge gave me goosebumps. If I was in the Bolton charge I would have impaled myself out of shame. :pac:

I'm fairly sure I saw Jon Snow strike Karstark in one scene though probably not fatally because in a later scene I thought I saw him fall down the hill of bodies. Will require re-watching; as if I needed an excuse

20-06-2016 02:36PM

Not everyone has to think that that episode was golden television, but a few of the 'criticisms' I've read elsewhere are almost making me clamp my hands down here for fear of palming one straight through my face.

"Who released the hounds into the cell with Ramsey? Surely if the dogs were so hungry, they would have ate that person too."

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

20-06-2016 02:40PM

stankratz wrote: »

Not everyone has to think that that episode was golden television, but a few of the 'criticisms' I've read elsewhere are almost making me clamp my hands down here for fear of palming one straight through my face.

"Who released the hounds into the cell with Ramsey? Surely if the dogs were so hungry, they would have ate that person too."

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Ha, I was thinking about that when I was watching the episode this morning.
I would criticise something like that, but I did notice it.
In my head, Sansa had used some sort of rope mechanism from behind the bars, to open all the kennels at once

Zillah · 20-06-2016 02:40PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I'm not sure the Starks have much left to do anything with anything. Littlefinger will likely be the one making the decisions.

If that's what you think then you have not been paying attention. This entire arc is about Sansa coming into her own. She's the rising power now - not Jon, not Littlefinger. There's a new Lady in town. The reason Littlefinger is helping her at all is because he is sentimental towards her, always has been thanks to his infatuation with Catelyn.

I hope the Starks and Dany don't come into conflict. There's no reason they can't crush the Lannisters et al between them, let Dany take the throne and let the Starks have the North. Together burn the ice zombies, happy ending.

I also wouldn't mind if everyone gets wiped out by the endless night, however - that's plausible.

As for the episode generally: I really enjoyed it, fantastic battle scene. Far too predictable and cliched though. The Riders of Rohan showing up at the end was just so sickeningly obvious. Wun Wun was doomed to die a noble death from the moment he showed up in the series. Great end for the Bolton bastard.

I predict Sansa will, once again, show that she's smarter than the average Stark, and instead of having the heads of the other Lords lopped off she will do a minimum of lopping and otherwise repair the connections between the houses of the North.

Perfect contrast between her and Jon. Her, insisting they needed a bigger army and playing politics to get one; Jon making a suicidal charge for noble and stupid reasons, getting his army almost annihilated and needing her to bail him out. It got Ned killed, it got Robb killed, it very nearly got Jon killed. She's everything the Stark men aren't and that's why she's going to win.

Zillah · 20-06-2016 02:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha, I was thinking about that when I was watching the episode this morning.
I would criticise something like that, but I did notice it.
In my head, Sansa had used some sort of rope mechanism from behind the bars, to open all the kennels at once

There's also a big difference between a strong human standing on their feet and a bloodied, feeble, tied down human. You'll notice the dog went in very slowly, first sniffing, then licking at the blood, and only then biting him. If it took them that long to attack Bolton then you can easily imagine someone on their feet being able to control them for a few seconds while he opens a bloody gate.

Not that is matters in the slightest; there are a hundred different ways to rationalise it and you're welcome to assume whichever you like. We've enough to be squeezing into the show without wasting time on something like that.

JoeyJJ · 20-06-2016 02:50PM

Zoo keepers control where animals go without getting too close, this is far too much overthinking.

If Ramsey had time to take out the big guy to the eye how come he didn't take out Jon who was standing next to him? That a better question?

EagererBeaver · 20-06-2016 02:51PM

Zillah wrote: »

If that's what you think then you have not been paying attention. This entire arc is about Sansa coming into her own. She's the rising power now - not Jon, not Littlefinger. There's a new Lady in town. The reason Littlefinger is helping her at all is because he is sentimental towards her, always has been thanks to his infatuation with Catelyn.

I hope the Starks and Dany don't come into conflict. There's no reason they can't crush the Lannisters et al between them, let Dany take the throne and let the Starks have the North. Together burn the ice zombies, happy ending.

I also wouldn't mind if everyone gets wiped out by the endless night, however - that's plausible.

As for the episode generally: I really enjoyed it, fantastic battle scene. Far too predictable and cliched though. The Riders of Rohan showing up at the end was just so sickeningly obvious. Wun Wun was doomed to die a noble death from the moment he showed up in the series. Great end for the Bolton bastard.

I predict Sansa will, once again, show that she's smarter than the average Stark, and instead of having the heads of the other Lords lopped off she will do a minimum of lopping and otherwise repair the connections between the houses of the North.

Perfect contrast between her and Jon. Her, insisting they needed a bigger army and playing politics to get one; Jon making a suicidal charge for noble and stupid reasons, getting his army almost annihilated and needing her to bail him out. It got Ned killed, it got Robb killed, it very nearly got Jon killed. She's everything the Stark men aren't and that's why she's going to win.

Yes, yes, yes I haven't been paying attention and miss out on the ability to share the wonderful insight you have into characters. Then however you come out with rubbish like this. Robb was declared King in the North. They are in rebellion against the Iron Throne. If they don't bend the knee, there is every reason for them to come into conflict.

As for Littlefinger and Sansa, of course she's growing as a character but she shouldn't be any match for Littlefinger yet, either in terms of guile or cunning and in terms of numbers. She has a few loyal northmen, a few wildlings and potentially the ability to rally a few other houses now there's a Stark in Winterfell. He is Lord Protector of the Vale and has a professional army with him, at Winterfell, right now.

Unless there's some absolutely abysmal writing to entirely betray his character, this particular game is Littlefinger's to play whatever way he chooses. His hold on the Vale might be tenuous, but unless Sansa inexplicably gives a Dany-style Independence Day speech, there's no reason for the Lords of the Vale to abandon him for her.

Daith · 20-06-2016 02:54PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Unless there's some absolutely abysmal writing to entirely betray his character, this particular game is Littlefinger's to play whatever way he chooses. His hold on the Vale might be tenuous, but unless Sansa inexplicably gives a Dany-style Independence Day speech, there's no reason for the Lords of the Vale to abandon him for her.

She can propose a marriage to Robin. Doubt the Lords of the Vale would have any issue with Ned Stark's daughter marrying Jon Arryn's son. Then have the Lords of the Vale kill LF for murdering Lysa Arryn.

The Lords don't actually like LF.

At least that could happen but probably won't.

Zillah · 20-06-2016 02:57PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

but unless Sansa inexplicably gives a Dany-style Independence Day speech, there's no reason for the Lords of the Vale to abandon him for her.

...aside from the fact that the Lords of the Vale loathe him, know he seduced their Lady, probably murdered her, and has positioned himself as protector over her son, the last of the Arryns - who, by the way, are cousins to the Starks. I imagine the Lords of the Vale would have a far more favourable disposition to the Starks than creepy Baelish. Littlefinger has a lot of Rasputin vibes going on right now, and look how it ended for him.

Don't forget that the Starks/North and the Arryns/Vale have been traditional allies. Baelish is the interloper. He has command of the Vale but his control is tenuous and he can't afford to make an enemy of the Starks. More importantly he has little reason to. He'll need them to defeat the South even if he does have designs on the Iron Throne.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 02:58PM

JoeyJJ wrote: »

Zoo keepers control where animals go without getting too close, this is far too much overthinking.

If Ramsey had time to take out the big guy to the eye how come he didn't take out Jon who was standing next to him? That a better question?

Because in typical Ramsay fashion he needed to tell Jon he was going to kill him first. Also he was surrounded by enemies, having killed Wun Wun, he needed to stop them killing him before he had a chance to try and weasel his way out.

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-06-2016 03:05PM

Going to go against the grain here, whole thing was a bit meh for me. Far too much convenience and set-up just for these big pay-off scenes that make no sense within universe. There's no subtlety or surprise anymore, everything is so horrendously telegraphed you can see it coming a mile away.

Daith · 20-06-2016 03:08PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Going to go against the grain here, whole thing was a bit meh for me. Far too much convenience and set-up just for these big pay-off scenes that make no sense within universe. There's no subtlety or surprise anymore, everything is so horrendously telegraphed you can see it coming a mile away.

Yes. I wonder if this is a case of large parts of it not being based on GRRM's writing.

I have no faith whatsoever that show writers could every come up with a Red Wedding scenario by themselves.

EagererBeaver · 20-06-2016 03:19PM

Zillah wrote: »

...aside from the fact that the Lords of the Vale loathe him, know he seduced their Lady, probably murdered her, and has positioned himself as protector over her son, the last of the Arryns - who, by the way, are cousins to the Starks. I imagine the Lords of the Vale would have a far more favourable disposition to the Starks than creepy Baelish. Littlefinger has a lot of Rasputin vibes going on right now, and look how it ended for him.

Don't forget that the Starks/North and the Arryns/Vale have been traditional allies. Baelish is the interloper. He has command of the Vale but his control is tenuous and he can't afford to make an enemy of the Starks. More importantly he has little reason to. He'll need them to defeat the South even if he does have designs on the Iron Throne.

All true. He is disliked, he is suspected. But they have submitted to them. If that whole scene with Bronze Yohn earlier in the season is wiped out by a few pretty words from sansa, the consistency will vanish again.

lawlolawl · 20-06-2016 03:28PM

Daith wrote: »

Yes. I wonder if this is a case of large parts of it not being based on GRRM's writing.

I have no faith whatsoever that show writers could every come up with a Red Wedding scenario by themselves.

As i said earlier, all the fans favorites have plot armor now so you're probably right.

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-06-2016 03:33PM

Daith wrote: »

Yes. I wonder if this is a case of large parts of it not being based on GRRM's writing.

I have no faith whatsoever that show writers could every come up with a Red Wedding scenario by themselves.

Yeah, I wonder with them knowing what the ending is now are they just going to take the easiest, more spectacle/set-piece laden way there to maximise the casual reaction. There's no depth to anything, head-on it looks OK but if you think about it it all falls down or gets waved away with convenient excuses.

I fully expect to be underwhelmed next week as well but my biggest worry is that with WoW still not released and the potential for another book after ADoS the TV series might actually be the only ending we get.

20-06-2016 03:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha, I was thinking about that when I was watching the episode this morning.
I would criticise something like that, but I did notice it.
In my head, Sansa had used some sort of rope mechanism from behind the bars, to open all the kennels at once

Ah, sure I probably glanced a thought myself at it at the time like "Oh, who let them in?", but after that the thought was gone. Maybe the same for yourself. However, the difference is that there are those of us who use our brains and fill in these things ourselves, and then there's those who use something like that to curse the show to hell.

JoeyJJ wrote: »

Zoo keepers control where animals go without getting too close, this is far too much overthinking.

If Ramsey had time to take out the big guy to the eye how come he didn't take out Jon who was standing next to him? That a better question?

Good question. My own take on it is the following - Ramsey wanted to live. Had he have taken out Jon Snow with that arrow, the surrounding wildling archers and Wun Wun would have killed him instantly. In killing Wun Wun, he knew it would further anger Jon Snow and help goad him into one on one combat i.e. Ramsey's best chance at survival considering his limited options. If he then defeated Jon in an agreed 1v1, he might have thought he had a chance of being allowed to walk free because he beat him 'fairly'. Simply, Ramsey wanted to live more than he wanted to kill Jon Snow would be my take on it.

That said, your question is absolutely fair.

lawlolawl · 20-06-2016 03:44PM

stankratz wrote: »

Ah, sure I probably glanced a thought myself at it at the time like "Oh, who let them in?", but after that the thought was gone. Maybe the same for yourself. However, the difference is that there are those of us who use our brains and fill in these things ourselves, and then there's those who use something like that to curse the show to hell.

Good question. My own take on it is the following - Ramsey wanted to live. Had he have taken out Jon Snow with that arrow, the surrounding wildling archers and Wun Wun would have killed him instantly. In killing Wun Wun, he knew it would further anger Jon Snow and help goad him into one on one combat i.e. Ramsey's best chance at survival considering his limited options. If he then defeated Jon in an agreed 1v1, he might have thought he had a chance of being allowed to walk free because he beat him 'fairly'. Simply, Ramsey wanted to live more than he wanted to kill Jon Snow would be my take on it.

That said, your question is absolutely fair.

Nah, they just wanted to hammer home the point that Ramsey was a piece of **** by having him mercilessly kill off the noble giant who had just directly helped Jons troops storm the castle.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 20-06-2016 03:44PM

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Where did that little bitch Karstark get off to?

I have to commend Sophie Turner, Iwan Rheon and Kit Harrington, all 3 were excellent. I'm particularly happy for the latter as he seems to get a lot of grief from some quarters of the fanbase. That shot of him standing alone, sword in hand, staring down the Bolton charge gave me goosebumps. If I was in the Bolton charge I would have impaled myself out of shame. :pac:

He's not that great when he has to do dramatic scenes to be fair, he's a fairly wooden actor. Although I'd say he has improved a lot on that front since the first season.

He's amazing at the action stuff though, the man can move like nobody's business. The shot of him here on foot while all the mounted soldiers are going past is great. I remember reading an interview with the director after he did Hardhome and they asked him what Harington was like and he said something about he'd never seen an actor so good at hitting their marks. Which sounds like a real back handed compliment but fcukit when you get to the big episodes/sequences like this its a skill that really pays off

rawn · 20-06-2016 04:02PM

Bodie Hollow Fluid wrote:

He's amazing at the action stuff though, the man can move like nobody's business. The shot of him here on foot while all the mounted soldiers are going past is great. I remember reading an interview with the director after he did Hardhome and they asked him what Harington was like and he said something about he'd never seen an actor so good at hitting their marks. Which sounds like a real back handed compliment but fcukit when you get to the big episodes/sequences like this its a skill that really pays off

I was blown away by that scene, both visually and dramatically it was perfect. It was as confusing and brutal as a real battle. I had just come from a late showing of World of Warcraft before i watched GoT last night, the battle scenes in WoW were great for what they were but stilted (huge battles of people fighting one on one) so the direct comparison in my mind of those battles vs the confusing, mucky warfare in GoT was breathtaking.

Zillah · 20-06-2016 04:07PM

While we're talking about quibbles: why the fudge wasn't Wun Wun armed? Like, pick up a bloody tree if nothing else you great big idiot. Could smash up any line of pikemen swinging a good northern oak.

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-06-2016 04:08PM

Bodie Hollow Fluid wrote: »

He's not that great when he has to do dramatic scenes to be fair, he's a fairly wooden actor. Although I'd say he has improved a lot on that front since the first season.

While his delivery does need work a good bit of it is down to his lines, he rarely seems to get really good ones which show him off ("Edd, fetch me a block") like others around him seem to get.

PIORUN · 20-06-2016 04:09PM

great episode , only ruined slightly be seeing Aidan Gillens name in the opening credits, which confirmed that the Knights of the Vale would ride to the rescue.

PIORUN · 20-06-2016 04:12PM

rawn wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote:

I'm not sure the Starks have much left to do anything with anything. Littlefinger will likely be the one making the decisions.

Of course he will but he'd never be head-on about it, he would most likely push Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell over Jon, then convince Sansa to marry Sweetrobin, with the aim of marrying her himself when Robin conveniently dies. She/he will rule the Vale and the North, he may set his sights on KL or the Riverlands next

I'm quite convinced that at the end of this show/books, Littlefinger will be the last one standing and have indeed won the Game of Thrones.

rawn · 20-06-2016 04:14PM

I was only saying to my OH when they broke into Winterfell that they should get all the metal workers/leather workers to make him some armor and a bad ass spiked club, he would be worth 1000 men... then he fell ï¿¼
excuse me, i think my allergies are crying

rawn · 20-06-2016 04:17PM

PIORUN wrote:

I'm quite convinced that at the end of this show/books, Littlefinger will be the last one standing and have indeed won the Game of Thrones.

I think his grooming of Sansa will eventually be his undoing. He needs her to be smart to survive for his benefit, but he won't outsmart her forever.

Zillah · 20-06-2016 04:18PM

rawn wrote: »

I think his grooming of Sansa will eventually be his undoing. He needs her to be smart to survive for his benefit, but he won't outsmart her forever.

Pff, GRRM is basically ripping off the plot of Jurassic Park.

Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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