Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

ixoy · 20-06-2016 10:23PM

naughtb4 wrote: »

This series is seriously poor really missing the books

Save yourself some hassle and stop watching and just wait for the books. I'm far from convinced they're going to be better given the previous two volumes and the (to me) dull resolution to the Meereenese knot. I'm hoping I'm wrong of course - we'll probably find out when it gets published sometime in 2022.

Ave Sodalis · 20-06-2016 10:50PM

Bah humbug! There's no pleasing some people.

That episode was fantastic! That's the second time I've watched it, and will jump at the chance of watching it again. It still gave me a serious adrenaline rush the second time. Yes, there are some small flaws. There's always going to be them, especially when it seems people have nothing better to do than look for flaws.

Mr Freeze · 20-06-2016 10:51PM

Just watched it, not read through the whole thread yet.

But my immediate thoughts are, the victors of this battle, lost as much as they gained, lost their armies, they have literally no strength now in terms of men. Just enough to garrison Winterfell I'd say, leaving Little finger as the main strength in the north. Not good.

Losing Rickon Stark, the house is nearly as dead as the Bolton's now. Only female family members left and Jon is no Stark. I don't think Bran is ever coming south again.

rawn · 20-06-2016 10:59PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Was there any reason they didn't recast Rickon? It was pretty ridiculous to have a kid who's supposed to be what, 10 or so, standing as tall as Ramsay. It's not like Bran or the other Starks where they're sort of stuck with them because they're so recognisable after 5 seasons, I doubt most people would've copped if they'd recast Rickon each season.

Cos if they recast him then everyone would have thought he was a decoy Rickon. Notice they didn't have him speak? Poor guy's voice must have broken

ZeitgeistGlee · 20-06-2016 11:01PM

rawn wrote: »

Cos if they recast him then everyone would have thought he was a decoy Rickon. Notice they didn't have him speak? Poor guy's voice must have broken

Fair point, I suppose.

Washington Irving · 20-06-2016 11:05PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Instead in show the land besiegers are a bunch of Sons of the Harpy who seemingly got lost and are slaughtering... apparently upper class civilians outside the city gates. Er... okay... Meanwhile Daenery's dragons destroy one ship out of an enemy armada and the rest capitulate. It's the result I want... just not quite the way I want it. Feels like wish fulfilment. Would Season 1 episode 9 have been better if Syrio had turned up, saved Ned and killed Joffrey? Hmm. Satisfying, but... better?

The battle between Ramsey and Jon was good, but the Vale Knights' arrival was flagged up so heavily I thought I heard Merry shouting something about the riders of Rohan coming. It made the battle between the wildlings and Boltons feel a little inconsequential. I still don't get the Umber's real motives. I would have loved some exchanges between the heads of the Houses resisting Jon's alliance: at least we saw Smalljon in the fray.

I mean, I'm still more hyped for the battles at the beginning of the Winds of Winter (the book, not the episode) because I am unsure what is going to happen there. But either way there will be no Knights of the Vale to rescue the day: if the guys we want to win lose their tactical heads they will lose their physical heads as well.

The show has almost become the antithesis of the books at this stage. GRRM prides himself on subverting the old fantasy tropes but the show seems to have embraced them the more it distances itself from the source material. It's dangerously close to losing what sets it apart from all the other fantasy stories out there and just becoming fan service. It still looks fantasitc but the writing is so predictable and one-dimensional in comparison to the earlier parts.

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-06-2016 11:19PM

How did sansa know the dogs hadn't been fed in 7 days?
She had ridden off by the time it got mentioned!

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:20PM

Washington Irving wrote: »

The show has almost become the antithesis of the books at this stage. GRRM prides himself on subverting the old fantasy tropes but the show seems to have embraced them the more it distances itself from the source material. It's dangerously close to losing what sets it apart from all the other fantasy stories out there and just becoming fan service. It's still looks fantasitc but the writing is so predictable and one-dimensional in comparison to the earlier parts.

It looks fantastic doing it though.

I think at this stage we have reached peak fan theorising. The infinite number of monkeys theory has been proven.

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2016 11:22PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Going to go against the grain here, whole thing was a bit meh for me. Far too much convenience and set-up just for these big pay-off scenes that make no sense within universe. There's no subtlety or surprise anymore, everything is so horrendously telegraphed you can see it coming a mile away.

FURET wrote: »

Great cinematography, but the story itself is a little hollow at this stage.

Agree completely, has anybody given a legitimate reason why Sansa couldn't at least have mentioned that Littlefinger might turn up, she makes the point that they have to be smart and that Rikon is going to be toast anyway, why not ask him to wait and see if the Vale arrives, even if John ignores her - or alternatively we have a short scene of Littlefinger deliberately delaying so that the Stark/Wildling coalition is weakened and John at risk of dying.
It would have taken maybe 1-3 minutes of episode time which could have easily been culled from Greyworms jokes or something.

This points me to the wider flaw about whats happening with the show and why its loosing a lot of what made it great.

Zillah wrote: »

If that's what you think then you have not been paying attention. This entire arc is about Sansa coming into her own. She's the rising power now - not Jon, not Littlefinger. There's a new Lady in town.

What was so different about it was that, the protagonists acted in ways that made sense for their characters, every character was at risk of a bad turn of events, there wasn't needless plot armour and save the day moments created for dramatic effect.
In the last two episodes we had.
-Dany and the dragons saving the day by arriving at the right time
-The iron stomach of Arya Stark
-The Vale of Rohan arriving in the nick of time

It didn't feel like there was a predetermined plot arc, it was more like a narrative history. Does anybody think that Sansa or Dany is at any risk of an adverse turn of events/death soon, did anybody think that Sansa wasn't going to show she was a proud determined woman by having the last word over the Bastard?
That wasn't the way the show (or the books used to be).

The show is visually fantastic and can still deliver great scenes - Jaimey* talking about the things he is willing to do for love last week for example but its loosing something for me.

Really hoping Cersei and Jamie come back to the center of things for a while, I'd be happy with Lena Headey taking up half the screen time of every episode

I'm dreading having two such wooden actresses as Emilia Clarke and Sophie Turner taking complete center stage for the next season particularly when they kill of actors of the caliber of Ian McShane in one episode

Ave Sodalis · 20-06-2016 11:22PM

Tadeo Sweet Womanhood wrote:

How did sansa know the dogs hadn't been fed in 7 days? She had ridden off by the time it got mentioned!

I assumed that Jon told her, which is why Ramsey was put there in the first place.

rawn · 20-06-2016 11:27PM

Tadeo Sweet Womanhood wrote: »

I'm dreading having two such wooden actresses as Emilia Clarke and Sophie Turner taking complete center stage for the next season particularly when they kill of actors of the caliber of Ian McShane in one episode

What? Emilia Clarke is anything but wooden (more regal imo) and I find Sophie Turner extremely emotive in all of her scenes? I honestly don't get why people see them (Emilia especially) as bad actresses at all!

wp_rathead · 20-06-2016 11:28PM

rawn wrote: »

What? Emilia Clarke is anything but wooden (more regal imo) and I find Sophie Turner extremely emotive in all of her scenes? I honestly don't get why people see them (Emilia especially) as bad actresses at all!

Emilia is very hit and miss but Sophie is a brilliant actress imo
Looking forward to more Gemma Whelan, she is awesome

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:30PM

sup_dude wrote: »

I assumed that Jon told her, which is why Ramsey was put there in the first place.

Ah yeah, but we didn't see that, so bad writing :rolleyes:

I'm going to start a timeline of all the bits we didn't see that we apparantly need to see and that should give us a few more seasons. Hopefully by then GRRM will have finished the books and the show can stop marching in place.

awec · 20-06-2016 11:31PM

stankratz wrote: »

Not everyone has to think that that episode was golden television, but a few of the 'criticisms' I've read elsewhere are almost making me clamp my hands down here for fear of palming one straight through my face.

"Who released the hounds into the cell with Ramsey? Surely if the dogs were so hungry, they would have ate that person too."

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha, I was thinking about that when I was watching the episode this morning.
I would criticise something like that, but I did notice it.
In my head, Sansa had used some sort of rope mechanism from behind the bars, to open all the kennels at once

In the scene were you see the dogs come into the cell, if you look in the distance you can see an outer door is open (i.e. you can see snow outside through it).

My take on it is the bars were always open, the dogs were just put into the room by someone outside and they went towards the smell of blood.

rawn · 20-06-2016 11:31PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ah yeah, but we didn't see that, so bad writing :rolleyes:

I'm going to start a timeline of all the bits we didn't see that we apparantly need to see and that should give us a few more seasons. Hopefully by then GRRM will have finished the books and the show can stop marching in place.

People give out when everything is spelled out on screen, then they give out when they don't... there's no pleasing some people!

stevenmu · 20-06-2016 11:31PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Agree completely, has anybody given a legitimate reason why Sansa couldn't at least have mentioned that Littlefinger might turn up, she makes the point that they have to be smart and that Rikon is going to be toast anyway, why not ask him to wait and see if the Vale arrives, even if John ignores her - or alternatively we have a short scene of Littlefinger deliberately delaying so that the Stark/Wildling coalition is weakened and John at risk of dying.
It would have taken maybe 1-3 minutes of episode time which could have easily been culled from Greyworms jokes or something.

I'm pretty sure that she actually planned things exactly the way they happened. She knew Ramsey would lay a trap, and she knew John wasn't devious to outwit him, so she lay a trap of her own. You can see when she's watching the battle with Littlefinger, the look of satisfaction on her face watching the Vale knights ride through Ramsey's lines, but then a look of guilt when she looks down to where John is.

Whether it was entirely her idea, or Littlefinger helped, I guess we'll find out next week.

Turtyturd · 20-06-2016 11:32PM

Loved that episode. The tension in my body grew throughout the episode before finally releasing with every punch Jon landed on Ramsey's caricature face.

Wanted Jon to finish him but was ok with the ending until my OH said a better ending would have been for Ramsey to say his hounds wouldn't touch him, and for Sansa to reply 'Maybe not, but this one will.' and to step away leaving Ghost walking towards him.

Ave Sodalis · 20-06-2016 11:34PM

CMOTDibbler wrote:

Ah yeah, but we didn't see that, so bad writing

Oh yeah, sorry. We also didn't actually see Jon tell her where he was either... so how come she was even near Ramsey? :O

TheIrishGrover · 20-06-2016 11:35PM

I really enjoyed the episode. Great action. Exciting. Excellent effects (Except I keep expecting to hear "Never Ending Stohoweee" whenever Dany rides Drogon) and some excellent writing (Tyrion to Theon etc).

But......

I don't know. It's all getting just a bit predictable now that the storylines are coming together. I know they have to but it was obvious that the dragons were gonna take the fleet; that Dany was gonna come out with that "You misunderstand....." line. Was obvious that the Greyjoys were going to arrive this episode or next at the most. That Littlefinger was gonna ride in like the Rohirrim to save the day. Sure, there are twists and turns but you're not getting wrong-footed like you did in the previous books. I know there are going to be more deaths before the end (My money's on Jamie or Drogon next) and pretty much ALL deaths by the very end I suppose. For all the bombast and epic sweeps and rapid-fire tying up of storylines this season for me this season has been all about the smaller scenes: Tyrion, Greyworm and the translator, Jamie and Brienne, Bronn and Pod etc.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not one of those "Oh, the book is so much more layered and the series is sh*t" folks. I think the series is doing a damn fine job and any changes they make are absolutely needed in a TV format. But it's all just getting a TINY bit predictable. I mean I'm assuming the 2nd last scene will be Dany's fleet finally leaving for Westeros. As everyone's going "Hell yeah" the very last scene will be the Wall coming down and the Knight's King striding towards the screen.

Please GOD let Dorne be done now.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:35PM

stevenmu wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that she actually planned things exactly the way they happened. She knew Ramsey would lay a trap, and she knew John wasn't devious to outwit him, so she lay a trap of her own. You can see when she's watching the battle with Littlefinger, the look of satisfaction on her face watching the Vale knights ride through Ramsey's lines, but then a look of guilt when she looks down to where John is.

Whether it was entirely her idea, or Littlefinger helped, I guess we'll find out next week.

That's pretty devious :eek:

There is a scene in the trailer where they talk about trust. You may have hit the nail on the head there. Kudos. :cool:

stevenmu · 20-06-2016 11:36PM

I also agree with a lot of people that the show seems to be lacking something this season, a lot of things do seem hollow and lacking in depth.

Partly, I wonder is it because GRRM has stepped back from the show to focus on the books and left the show's writers to their own devices.

But I also wonder is it because we're so used to having read the books before we watch the show. The books are packed full of nuance and detail, which the show doesn't have the ability to deliver. Normally, when we've read the book first, we already have the nuance and detail, and can forgive the shortcuts that the show has to take. But this season, we don't have the knowledge from the books to back up what we see on screen, so the shortcuts they take are more jarring.

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2016 11:38PM

rawn wrote: »

What? Emilia Clarke is anything but wooden (more regal imo) and I find Sophie Turner extremely emotive in all of her scenes? I honestly don't get why people see them (Emilia especially) as bad actresses at all!

I don't think that opinion is uncommon at all*, its not a necessarily a slight on the actors personally they are young and don't have a pedigree of roles in comparison to the journey men and women that fill many of the other roles.

And I don't think its a gender thing as such, Maisie Williams/Arya or Michelle Fairley/Catyln don't/didn't receive that criticism from the fan community in terms of their acting and as I always mention Cersei steals her scenes. I think its if you aren't as invested in the Girrrrl Power trope the flaws in their performances stand out.
Kit Harington is pretty weak too but he saves it with his action scenes.

Washington Irving · 20-06-2016 11:39PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ah yeah, but we didn't see that, so bad writing :rolleyes:

I'm going to start a timeline of all the bits we didn't see that we apparantly need to see and that should give us a few more seasons. Hopefully by then GRRM will have finished the books and the show can stop marching in place.

You're overblowing that, very few have actually complained about minor off screen events and even then it's genuine questions about things that are not obvious.

The silly complaints have been dismissed by everyone else already.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:41PM

stevenmu wrote: »

I also agree with a lot of people that the show seems to be lacking something this season, a lot of things do seem hollow and lacking in depth.

Partly, I wonder is it because GRRM has stepped back from the show to focus on the books and left the show's writers to their own devices.

But I also wonder is it because we're so used to having read the books before we watch the show. The books are packed full of nuance and detail, which the show doesn't have the ability to deliver. Normally, when we've read the book first, we already have the nuance and detail, and can forgive the shortcuts that the show has to take. But this season, we don't have the knowledge from the books to back up what we see on screen, so the shortcuts they take are more jarring.

Man you are on a roll!

That plus the fact that there are only 13 espisodes left in the show means we are getting very close to the endgame. Very hard to take plot detours at this stage as all the pieces have to be in place for that to happen. The books can take a gentler arc to the same point, but the show being a visual medium needs to keep a sharper pace.

awec · 20-06-2016 11:42PM

All this talk of it being predictable is a bit mad IMO. What do people want, plots that are entirely random?

The show was so unpredictable at the start that now everyone expects the unpredictable all the time. Everyone always wants some alternative to be true, rather than the obvious.

How do you make something unpredictable when the show is micro-analysed to the point where practically every possible plot is predicted by someone well in advance? People have 6 seasons worth of back story now on all the characters, it's fair to say it's easier than ever to predict their behaviour.

Even the earlier seasons were somewhat predictable once you realised that GoT had no issue with killing off major characters at any time. With each passing season the potential to truly shock people diminishes.

There are only probably a handful of truly shocking plots available now, and I think they'd piss people off more than anything. People would just be left wondering what was the point.

At some point the dots need joined in a logical way. Last night was one step toward that.

eeguy · 20-06-2016 11:42PM

rawn wrote: »

People give out when everything is spelled out on screen, then they give out when they don't... there's no pleasing some people!

When you're on the forums and looking at the theories, links, freeze frames and all fhe rest you cant complain about things being signposted.

Sure the writing has gone downhill and theres plenty of filler, but jesus, the books were exactly the same.

You have to take it at face value. Sure we saw Sansa write to Little finger, but we didn't really. But everyone said it here, then someone pulled a still from the scene and transcribed the letter and sure enough when it happens people say it's "telegraphed".

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2016 11:46PM

stevenmu wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that she actually planned things exactly the way they happened. She knew Ramsey would lay a trap, and she knew John wasn't devious to outwit him, so she lay a trap of her own. You can see when she's watching the battle with Littlefinger, the look of satisfaction on her face watching the Vale knights ride through Ramsey's lines, but then a look of guilt when she looks down to where John is.

Whether it was entirely her idea, or Littlefinger helped, I guess we'll find out next week.

That doesn't make much sense, she doesn't loose anything by telling john to wait and to try and convince him that Littlefinger might be on his way.
John himself says AFAIK "Where are the more men we need" or words to that effect, the only reason its not mentioned is because it makes for a more "dramatic" episode and allows her to have that scene.
Its not a move motivated by the desires of the character IMO, its one motivated by the story arc.

Washington Irving · 20-06-2016 11:46PM

stevenmu wrote: »

I also agree with a lot of people that the show seems to be lacking something this season, a lot of things do seem hollow and lacking in depth.

Partly, I wonder is it because GRRM has stepped back from the show to focus on the books and left the show's writers to their own devices.

But I also wonder is it because we're so used to having read the books before we watch the show. The books are packed full of nuance and detail, which the show doesn't have the ability to deliver. Normally, when we've read the book first, we already have the nuance and detail, and can forgive the shortcuts that the show has to take. But this season, we don't have the knowledge from the books to back up what we see on screen, so the shortcuts they take are more jarring.

There have been plenty of non-book readers voicing similar concerns over the storywriting, don't think it has anything to do with having, or not having, read the source material.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:51PM

Washington Irving wrote: »

You're overblowing that, very few have actually complained about minor off screen events and even then it's genuine questions about things that are not obvious.

The silly complaints have been dismissed by everyone else already.

Things that are not obvious like why the trebuchets on the ships didn't attack the dragons. Or why Dany arrived at Meereen 'just in the nick of time' despite asking Daario how many days march it was to Meereen just before reuniting with Drogon?

It's ok if people are asking genuine questions, not so much when they're lighting the 'I'm a genius for spotting this plothole' neon sign over their heads.

CMOTDibbler · 20-06-2016 11:54PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

That doesn't make much sense, she doesn't loose anything by telling john to wait and to try and convince him that Littlefinger might be on his way.
John himself says AFAIK "Where are the more men we need" or words to that effect, the only reason its not mentioned is because it makes for a more "dramatic" episode and allows her to have that scene.
Its not a move motivated by the desires of the character IMO, its one motivated by the story arc.

She doesn't trust him to lead and not make a huge mistake through underestimating Ramsay. Which he did. Which if he had the Vale Knights under his command he'd have fukced up too.

Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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