Eircom announce 512K DSL @55 euros

SkepticOne

Originally posted by milltown
Correct me if I'm taking you up wrong here Tim but from what's been posted here already there are a lot of people who would pay a small premium over Eircom's price to get rid of the cap. If this happens then the extra €5/10 euro paid for capless dsl will be profit, no?
Charging €50 retail for a €40 wholesale product = a 25% markup. That doesn't sound too shabby to me.

The retail price ex VAT that Eircom are proposing is 45 euros. The 40 euros wholesale price is normally ex-VAT too. That leaves a margin of 5 euros - well into the territory of margin squeeze. Two other points. The ISP will still have to provide the connection to the Internet. If it is to be done like the current bitstream product then this will involve leased lines connecting from the ISPs POP to the various handover points for Eircom's bitstream service in addition to the bandwidth charges. Other point is that the service still won't be a mass-market product. At the VAT inclusive price of 54 euros, this still pushes it into the niche of minority enthusiasts.

Eircom are fully aware of their regulatory obligations so if they are not serious with this announcement (e.g. it is for political reasons), then margin squeeze is one of the games they can play. Plenty of other technical barriers they can erect too to put off competition.

We need to hold Eircom to their date of March 2003 for the introduction of this new service. Blaming the regulator should not be considered a valid excuse since their obligations are already known. Neither should technical issues. If Eircom can't handle established techologies, then radical measures need to be taken to ensure Ireland's future communications needs.

BoneCollector

Eircom are fully aware of their regulatory obligations so if they are not serious with this announcement (e.g. it is for political reasons), then margin squeeze is one of the games they can play. Plenty of other technical barriers they can erect too to put off competition.

Agreed
and you note they say pending regulatory approval..
they no darn well that this will probably be questioned and delayed and therefor as usual they can seem to be doing something but realy doing nothing just pr and also shifting the blame on the regulator for any hold ups,

also once again they advertise aproduct the dont have the means to deliver in the 1st place cus they dont have the coverage there needs to be to make this a mass market product..
its all PR and vapourware as usual :mad:

Tazz T

Just on the line rental bit...

I lived n the Uk for some time and moved from BT to NTL after deregulation - line rental came free with the telephone package.

longword

Originally posted by milltown
Charging €50 retail for a €40 wholesale product = a 25% markup. That doesn't sound too shabby to me.

If only it were that simple. Eircom's wholesale product is not a complete package, unlike BT in the UK. Eircom's wholesale package doesn't include a path to the internet, any internet bandwidth, or even a path to the ISP's Network Operations Center. So you have to factor in the ISP's costs of providing that in addition to whatever random number Eircom pick as the wholesale charge. Careful with the VAT inclusive/exclusive issue too.

SkepticOne

I would tend to agree with longword.

Dazzer

I'd pay 65/70 Euro inc. VAT for a 512 down 256 up no cap ADSL product. I understand the need for caps but 4 gig's is unacceptable imho.

dahamsta

We need to hold Eircom to their date of March 2003 for the introduction of this new service. Blaming the regulator should not be considered a valid excuse since their obligations are already known.

I was thinking about this last night. There's no doubt in my mind that Eircom's marketing guys have seen the successes of this strategy in the past, and fully intend to roll it out again on this occasion. This isn't such a bad thing though, it means they're getting tired, they're losing the initiative -- they're simply losing. That doesn't mean we can be complacent though, it means we have to take advantage and trample them into the dirt while we can. So it's going to be up to us to ensure that Eircom doesn't get away with it this time.

Thinking ahead, it seems to me that we would have to implement a two-prong strategy to handle this. The more clueful technology and business journalists are easy, we can counteract the FUD by simply contacting them in advance and doing a funky psychic dance with them, outlining just what will happen; so when it does, they'll go "OMFG, IrelandOffline predicted this exact scenario, must report that! Wow!" Of course, clueful journalists will understand this anyway, but they're in the minority.

The slightly more complex problem is the reporters who get dragged in to report on this issue when there's no-one available in-house to do it; and the press release reprinters. These guys invariably haven't a notion what they're talking about and will take Eircom's FUD at face value. How we tackle them is by watching the media like a hawk when things start happening, and bombarding them and their editors with refutations as soon as they write something. Eircom will get the first strike, but we've got more troops, and boy can they be effective.

It would be nice if IrelandOffline came up with a strategy plan for counteracting the FUD in the next couple of months. One which will include contingency plans for when the Eircom spies spot this and pass it on to the marketing department.

adam

Ardmore

Originally posted by Tazz T
Just on the line rental bit...

I lived n the Uk for some time and moved from BT to NTL after deregulation - line rental came free with the telephone package.

Apples and oranges. NTL broadband offering is over cable. You have to have a subscription to NTLs cable TV package to get the "free" line rental, from what I can make out on the NTL website.

NTLs phone package prices in the UK are very attarctive compared to what we can get here, but they do state the the Line Rental is included in the price, and that for "TV customers line rental forms part of your pack price".

The Line Rental itself is GBP9.50 about €14.40.

Dazzer

Jesus christ this thread is NOT about line rental charges it's about a new ADSL product and ADSL pricing structure!

Dangger

The more clueful technology and business journalists are easy, we can counteract the FUD by simply contacting them in advance and doing a funky psychic dance with them, outlining just what will happen; so when it does, they'll go "OMFG, IrelandOffline predicted this exact scenario, must report that! Wow!" Of course, clueful journalists will understand this anyway, but they're in the minority.

Your points are valid Adam. The fud busting began last night at the O2 awards. Already people are wary and a prepared course of action as you suggest looks good to me.

MDR

Eircom will get the first strike, but we've got more troops, and boy can they be effective.

It would be nice if IrelandOffline came up with a strategy plan for counteracting the FUD in the next couple of months. One which will include contingency plans for when the Eircom spies spot this and pass it on to the marketing department

V.good Idea,

I will have a think aboyut setting up a strategy plan ....

longword

Originally posted by Dazzer
I'd pay 65/70 Euro inc. VAT for a 512 down 256 up no cap ADSL product. I understand the need for caps but 4 gig's is unacceptable imho.

If you look at it objectively, it's a very fair number.

Given a 512kbit line your top download speed is about 50kBytes/sec. If you had exclusive use of that 512k line you could download in total about 125GBytes in one month if you use the line to capacity 24 hours a day every day of the week. Now if you factor in a 50:1 contention ratio, you have to share that 125GB/month with 50 other users - about 2.5GBytes/month. Which makes 4GB/month seem generous. Even with a 24:1 ratio, as per their current I-Stream product, it works out at about 5GB/month per customer.

The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

Washout

I wouldnt even say there would be many bandwith hogs out there seeking that kind of capacity...The trouble will arise during peak times when say 10 to 20 users are trying to download big files at the same time...most of us wouldnt even leave our PC on at home unless we wre running a persoanl web/ftp server and as there is no limit on the upstream i dint think there would be a major problem.

All in all Its a very reasonable offering finally from a very unreasoning Company... Hopefully there will be enough in the wholesale rates to allow others to compete.

My primary concern is that if your bound under the 12 month contract @ the 107 Euro Rate are you them obliged to see out to the end of that contract before you can apply for this new product or will you have the option of simply switching over existing i-stream to the higher contention ratio

dahamsta

I will have a think aboyut setting up a strategy plan ....

Excellent. And good stuff on using the DMA to get started Dave.

adam

Nitrox

When i called NTL a week ago to see if i could avail from the broadband offer they said that my area curently was not yet included (IFSC) but within two months broadband would be available. I asked the guy if it was just ISDN and he said no, it would be much faster, so only leaves ADSL then...looking forward to see the price and cap, i really want broadband NOW!
See if Ireland finally move out of the Tech. Stoneage....sorry, but no respect for the situation so far! if i lived in my own country 2 Mbit would be thrown at me at rock bottom prices no cap, but i choose to stay here for some time still and hope for the best....

zynaps

Originally posted by longword
The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

I've said this before, and here we go again. A service provider should set up their network so that it does this automatically, and users don't have to manage their bandwidth to 'leave some for the other users'.

Who is better equipped to determine the state of the network, how much bandwidth is available and who is requesting it than the ISP themselves?
So why expect the user to make decisions like "hmm, are other people requesting bandwidth? Am I using too much? Maybe there is plenty of spare bandwidth?"?
[/OT]

zynaps

spongebob

search the boards (top right click search) a bit to find out about the legendary NTL

if it WAS available (which is most unlikely in the next 5 -10 years) they would actually deny it....

longword

Originally posted by zynaps
I've said this before, and here we go again. A service provider should set up their network so that it does this automatically, and users don't have to manage their bandwidth to 'leave some for the other users'.

Exactly what network device, from what company would you suggest be used to achieve this goal? And what's the real difference between that and a sliding cap as implemented by the likes of telenet.be?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Washout
All in all Its a very reasonable offering finally from a very unreasoning Company... Hopefully there will be enough in the wholesale rates to allow others to compete.

Yeah. Without competing ISPs, all this talk about caps is academic. You wil get what Eircom deem appropriate and what we say here will not matter a damn.

elexes

Originally posted by longword

The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

but you do realise that if the isp cant support the need for a service they said that they can give they should not be doing it

such as the old no limits thing

if i end up paying for the unlimited dsl line i would expect that i can transfer 24x7 at max load with no questions asked since i paid for the thing

a 8 gig limit would be more like it .even 6 would of been nicer but at liest its a start

SkepticOne

Originally posted by elexes
if i end up paying for the unlimited dsl line i would expect that i can transfer 24x7 at max load with no questions asked since i paid for the thing

I would advise going for a dedicated bandwidth solution. Unfortunately at present these tend to be expensive.

Snaga

But your not paying for an unlimited DSL line. Your paying for your line to be DSL enabled , being plugged into a DSLAM and getting your IP connectivity.

Your IP connectivity is there at whatever agreement you reach with the isp, at the moment that means caps for most of the services currently out there.

Theres no point assuming that its unlimited just because ISP's in other countries _choose_ to offer residential DSL with no cap.

Now personally I dont want a cap either, but I know for a residential offering its inevitable, for the moment at least. We can only hope that they up the caps to more reasonable levels ala IrishWisps jump to 12Gb.

If you need that kind of bandwidth usage then wait for SDSL which will have a contention of 1:1, no cap and be approximately 20-25% cheaper than current leased lines.

joec

has anyone heard any info on eircom presenting a new list of exchanges for upgrade ? or esat ?

Ardmore

Originally posted by joec
has anyone heard any info on eircom presenting a new list of exchanges for upgrade ? or esat ?

ESAT have a list of enabled exchanges, and those that are currently scheduled for upgrade here. They won't commit themselves to anything that isn't immediately "in the works", but at least they are making this information available.

Eircom apparently believe that this is none of our damned business, and don't seem to be willing to communicate this information at all.

A cynic would suggest that you should look for exchanges in marginal constituencies

Victor

Originally posted by Ardmore
ESAT have a list of enabled exchanges, and those that are currently scheduled for upgrade here.

DSL Exchanges - Below please find a list of Esat BT DSL exchanges which are launched & those due to go live shortly.

DSL Exchanges launched
...
Churchfield, Cork
Beggars Bush, Dublin
Crown Alley, Dublin
Nutley Lane, Dublin
Quaker Road, Cork ...

This is actually a list of Eircom exchanges (or sub-exchanges) that EsatBT must be connected to.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Victor
This is actually a list of Eircom exchanges (or sub-exchanges) that EsatBT must be connected to.

Of course it's a list of Eircom exchanges. ESAT can't deliver ADSL to customers if they don't put their equipment in the exchanges that those customers are wired up to (that is, Eircom exchanges). But the fact that there is ESAT ADSL equipment in an Eircom exchange doesn't mean that Eircom can (or will) deliver ADSL to customers of that exchange. And there are Eircom exchanges where ESAT can't install their own equipment (because Eircom says there isn't room).

joec

when i asked the question i knew of the esat list........but i had heard even before the announcement that eircom would be upgrading a lot more exchanges and that esat would be also................so i was wonderign has anything been leaked yet from either party.......but obviously at the mo its not gonna be announced by them until the wholesale price is agreed by comreg

Turner

How would one find out which exchange one is connected too ??

Victor

Originally posted by Chief---
How would one find out which exchange one is connected too ??

Just phone eircom customer service and ask.

Turner

Originally posted by Victor
Just phone eircom customer service and ask.

Haaaaa haaaa HAAAAAAA ha, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHA OMFG HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA

Are you serious, as if they would know.

Chief.