Eircom announce 512K DSL @55 euros

hamster · 23-01-2003 9:52pm

Hmmm... I'm with UTVip's telephony offering at the moment via ISDN (30 Euro/month) on the 150 Hr offpeak package.

Download rate: 26Mb / Hour x 150 Hours = 3900 Mb

That is just for downloads, if Eircom intends a reasonable cap for something that is much faster than a 64K ISDN connection then I think 4Gb is a bit on the slim side. That is you must account for the Web page graphics... everything... in that cap. Important when a speedy connection can fly through that cap. An 8Gb cap would be appropriate considering you are paying more per month.

But if true, it does start moving the wheels.... gosh flat rate!

Ardmore · 23-01-2003 9:55pm

Originally posted by Fungus
You can. see http://www.freedial.biz/

Interesting. The page says "Each plan has a limited number of accounts so signup now to guarantee your package", and I can't find any mention of it on any of the UK ISP reviews I checked - is this vapourware, or are there people actually getting this pacakge?

Reviews here and here

The Register also had this to say about Freedial last September

Ardmore · 23-01-2003 10:11pm

Originally posted by theciscokid
https://secure.worlddomain.ws/freedial/shop/product_info.php?products_id=69&osCsid=8f8e2e9d1935cde93a25efb99ea77ff1 for £12.99 , added on october 2002, still valid to my knowledge

See my comments on Freedial above.

i think you're getting my second point mixed up ardmore, im not saying you can get dsl without a line, im saying when you are using a sole line, the price they quote you is line rental included.They don't sell "sole" lines- ADSL is a service added to your existing voice service, over your existing voice line.

for example bt's £30 pound package enables all the extras like web space etc.. you do not however pay extra for line rental, its included, considering the line is solely for the net

please correct me if i'm wrong

The Terms & Conditions clearly state that the service "Requires a BT line" - you can't get ADSL if you're not already paying for a BT line.

?? i don't know what you're saying there
but line rental is terribly expensive,

I won't argue with that!!

if you want to use their services , they charge you for the line that has to be put in to use their services,

there should be some compromise surely,
There is - your phone calls are cheaper than they would be if you weren't paying line rental! (You don't think the ESB uses 11c worth of oil to generate 1 kwh of exectricty, do you? You pay for the infrastructure too).

i just got my bill today and with tax, its €39

so the guts of €20 a month first of all before you use a service,
internet or phone i just think its very pricey,

and that sets dsl out of reach for me @ €75 (per month-with vat)
No! Your phone bill now is €39. With ADSL, it'll be €94. That's only an increase of €55.

if its €55 including line rental , that could be a different storyYou need a phone line to get ADSL. ADSL costs €55, most people already have a phone line.

You can't use your ADSL connection without electricity or a computer either - should we include the price of them in ADSL too?

theciscokid · 23-01-2003 10:24pm

ahhhhh i see, i thought that bt package would include line rental etc..

what do britains get charged a month for line rental

but

No! Your phone bill now is €39. With ADSL, it'll be €94. That's only an increase of €55.

that €39 is bi-monthly

so it'll be €75

Dustaz · 23-01-2003 10:36pm

This line rental thing has to stop now.

Line rental is expensive in Ireland, very expensive. Ireland has expensive DSL. These are two seperate issues.

i just got my bill today and with tax, its €39
so the guts of €20 a month first of all before you use a service, internet or phone

Yes, its what you pay eircom for the use of that copper line coming into your house. Whatever you choose to use it for it does not matter a jot, but you must rent that line every month.

i just think its very pricey, and that sets dsl out of reach for me @ €75 (per month-with vat)

The line rental IS pricey, but dsl will cost you an EXTRA 55 a month. DSL does NOT cost you €75 a month. You are paying €20 of that even if you just look at your phone all day.

if its €55 including line rental , that could be a different story but somehow i don't think so

That would make it €35 euro and then we would be in line with a lot of european countrys. But your phone line would still cost almost €20.

Again , i just cannot understand why people are lumping these two issues together, they are two seperate issues.

dahamsta · 23-01-2003 10:38pm

Ardmore, I see your point now, I completely missed it earlier. Too much information today. Jumping down people's throats doesn't help though.

adam

Ardmore · 23-01-2003 10:47pm

Originally posted by theciscokid
what do britains get charged a month for line rental

I'm not sure, but from this it looks like GBP36.86 per quarter comes to €18.50 a month! (That can't be right, can it?)

that €39 is bi-monthly

Hold on a second - are you saying that you've got a phone line that you don't use, and you pay €20 a month for it? You get a bill from eircom for €39.20, and you just pay it, even though you never make or receive calls?

Ardmore · 23-01-2003 10:55pm

Originally posted by dahamsta
Ardmore, I see your point now, I completely missed it earlier. Too much information today. Jumping down people's throats doesn't help though.

I wasn't trying to jump down anyones throat, but, like dustaz, this issue of adding the line rental to the cost of ADSL is wearing a bit thin. It's not as if it hasn't been addressed before. Unlike Hi-Price, where you do have to pay for an extra line, (a pure scam, but you know that) ADSL works on your existing line.

spongebob · 23-01-2003 10:59pm

de Rebel noted

Its a bit suspicious that they are not answering. Usually they staff up for a day like today. Why did they send the staff home early. I wonder if there is something we are not being told..............

yeah, they were sent into a meeting at 4.30 to get their ducks in a row. Someone from ESAT complained to Comreg about Eircom staff promising and taking orders for March deliveries

M

jwt · 23-01-2003 11:12pm

JWTThe Register

theciscokid · 23-01-2003 11:17pm

Originally posted by Ardmore
I'm not sure, but from this it looks like GBP36.86 per quarter comes to €18.50 a month! (That can't be right, can it?)

Hold on a second - are you saying that you've got a phone line that you don't use, and you pay €20 a month for it? You get a bill from eircom for €39.20, and you just pay it, even though you never make or receive calls?

erm - just use the line for the net, no phone or anything , why?

do i get a reduction?

Ardmore · 23-01-2003 11:32pm

Originally posted by theciscokid
erm - just use the line for the net, no phone or anything , why?

Is this the only phone line in the house? How much are you paying in phone calls to access the 'net?

If you have 2 phonelines (one for the net only, one for everyone else to use), you can get rid of the 'net only phone and save the line rental on that line.

sceptre · 24-01-2003 12:00am

Originally posted by Ardmore
Not to put too fine a point on it, bollocks

Put too fine a point on it. There's no excuse for being curt to the point of abusive with another poster.

(incidentally I have one phone line - and it was installed purely for the Net)

Drop it - from one perspective it's an effective extra, from another it isn't. If you feel like starting a new thread arguing the toss, feel free - it's just hijacking this one. Any further "yes you do, no I don't" posts in this thread will just be deleted by me. Call it censorship if you like.

Woden · 24-01-2003 12:09am

i'm very confused now and want someone to spell it out for me, if i get this dsl package on my existing phone line will the parents be paying for another line rental? if not will it block up the phone line with my internet usage? cheers data

p.s got a phonecall survey yesterday about internet usage and prices dial-up, flat rates, isp's etc interestingly enough one of the questions was would i pay €45 euro for a adsl connection with eircom per month, (no mention of vat) i thought it was a pipe dream to be honest.

Synkronite · 24-01-2003 12:19am

Dataisgod, if you get ADSL you will -NOT- have to pay line rental for an extra line. It works on your existing line. Also you can talk on the phone while browsing at the same time -- http://www.howstuffworks.com/dsl . This is not to be confused with ISDN which advertises the same "talk and browse at the same time" ISDN uses dual-channels, where one channel connects online at 64Kbps and the other can also be used to connect (to make your speed 128Kbps) or to make phone calls. ADSL uses the same phone line, different frequency ranges I believe.

I think it would help if posters would be more constructive instead of resorting to any lame attempts to moan about every little thing. This whole "Oh its really €70+ per month for ADSL" is absolute crap.

I didnt hear anyone complain about Netsmart as being "So much for linerental PLUS so much for Netsmart's xxx hours"

Some people will just not give anything a chance. No matter how much people complain, they should understand that atleast Eircom has taken a step in the right direction. Atleast we know that by Spring we'll all be able to get ADSL at 50% of what they were before.

Sure IOFFL will continue its job to get cheap affordable access. But affordable is a relative term. But for the meantime let's not bring up meaningless rants that serve no purpose but add unneccessary length to posts and cause confusion to others.

Thanks.

dahamsta · 24-01-2003 12:37am

JWTThe Register

FYI, that's actually the ENN story. They have a content sharing agreement. Good to see it reach a wider audience though.

adam

Chaos-Engine · 24-01-2003 1:02am

What about the 1mb/s option... is that halfed too. Cause I don't want a cap at all...

corkey · 24-01-2003 1:42am

Wont take it, Just because they screwed us for years on diallup why ?Feck there the same company they fecked there shareholders, Does that say something ? :mad: Well done UTVIP you have shaken there base but more has to be done like line rental for what :mad: line rental for what ?

timod · 24-01-2003 2:05am

Nice work all. Can't imagine there would be any developments had it not been for IOFFL!!

What i fear will happen is that eircom will make the wholesale price just below the offer price, say wholesale of €40.... and tell comreg that the margin will be made by actually enforcing the cap.

That allows for say €5 for bitstream profit for other operators. Thus protecting Eircoms virtual monopoly.

Bitstream really is the way to go I reckon, it's worked well in the UK. By offering a very tight margined wholesale price, there will be few OLO's running bitstream DSL

I could be wrong of course

p.s. apologies for my silence lately! Up the walls!

milltown · 24-01-2003 2:33am

Correct me if I'm taking you up wrong here Tim but from what's been posted here already there are a lot of people who would pay a small premium over Eircom's price to get rid of the cap. If this happens then the extra €5/10 euro paid for capless dsl will be profit, no?
Charging €50 retail for a €40 wholesale product = a 25% markup. That doesn't sound too shabby to me.

SkepticOne · 24-01-2003 7:51am

Originally posted by milltown
Correct me if I'm taking you up wrong here Tim but from what's been posted here already there are a lot of people who would pay a small premium over Eircom's price to get rid of the cap. If this happens then the extra €5/10 euro paid for capless dsl will be profit, no?
Charging €50 retail for a €40 wholesale product = a 25% markup. That doesn't sound too shabby to me.

The retail price ex VAT that Eircom are proposing is 45 euros. The 40 euros wholesale price is normally ex-VAT too. That leaves a margin of 5 euros - well into the territory of margin squeeze. Two other points. The ISP will still have to provide the connection to the Internet. If it is to be done like the current bitstream product then this will involve leased lines connecting from the ISPs POP to the various handover points for Eircom's bitstream service in addition to the bandwidth charges. Other point is that the service still won't be a mass-market product. At the VAT inclusive price of 54 euros, this still pushes it into the niche of minority enthusiasts.

Eircom are fully aware of their regulatory obligations so if they are not serious with this announcement (e.g. it is for political reasons), then margin squeeze is one of the games they can play. Plenty of other technical barriers they can erect too to put off competition.

We need to hold Eircom to their date of March 2003 for the introduction of this new service. Blaming the regulator should not be considered a valid excuse since their obligations are already known. Neither should technical issues. If Eircom can't handle established techologies, then radical measures need to be taken to ensure Ireland's future communications needs.

BoneCollector · 24-01-2003 10:00am

Eircom are fully aware of their regulatory obligations so if they are not serious with this announcement (e.g. it is for political reasons), then margin squeeze is one of the games they can play. Plenty of other technical barriers they can erect too to put off competition.

Agreed
and you note they say pending regulatory approval..
they no darn well that this will probably be questioned and delayed and therefor as usual they can seem to be doing something but realy doing nothing just pr and also shifting the blame on the regulator for any hold ups,

also once again they advertise aproduct the dont have the means to deliver in the 1st place cus they dont have the coverage there needs to be to make this a mass market product..
its all PR and vapourware as usual :mad:

Tazz T · 24-01-2003 10:34am

Just on the line rental bit...

I lived n the Uk for some time and moved from BT to NTL after deregulation - line rental came free with the telephone package.

longword · 24-01-2003 11:02am

Originally posted by milltown
Charging €50 retail for a €40 wholesale product = a 25% markup. That doesn't sound too shabby to me.

If only it were that simple. Eircom's wholesale product is not a complete package, unlike BT in the UK. Eircom's wholesale package doesn't include a path to the internet, any internet bandwidth, or even a path to the ISP's Network Operations Center. So you have to factor in the ISP's costs of providing that in addition to whatever random number Eircom pick as the wholesale charge. Careful with the VAT inclusive/exclusive issue too.

SkepticOne · 24-01-2003 11:06am

I would tend to agree with longword.

Dazzer · 24-01-2003 11:10am

I'd pay 65/70 Euro inc. VAT for a 512 down 256 up no cap ADSL product. I understand the need for caps but 4 gig's is unacceptable imho.

dahamsta · 24-01-2003 11:16am

We need to hold Eircom to their date of March 2003 for the introduction of this new service. Blaming the regulator should not be considered a valid excuse since their obligations are already known.

I was thinking about this last night. There's no doubt in my mind that Eircom's marketing guys have seen the successes of this strategy in the past, and fully intend to roll it out again on this occasion. This isn't such a bad thing though, it means they're getting tired, they're losing the initiative -- they're simply losing. That doesn't mean we can be complacent though, it means we have to take advantage and trample them into the dirt while we can. So it's going to be up to us to ensure that Eircom doesn't get away with it this time.

Thinking ahead, it seems to me that we would have to implement a two-prong strategy to handle this. The more clueful technology and business journalists are easy, we can counteract the FUD by simply contacting them in advance and doing a funky psychic dance with them, outlining just what will happen; so when it does, they'll go "OMFG, IrelandOffline predicted this exact scenario, must report that! Wow!" Of course, clueful journalists will understand this anyway, but they're in the minority.

The slightly more complex problem is the reporters who get dragged in to report on this issue when there's no-one available in-house to do it; and the press release reprinters. These guys invariably haven't a notion what they're talking about and will take Eircom's FUD at face value. How we tackle them is by watching the media like a hawk when things start happening, and bombarding them and their editors with refutations as soon as they write something. Eircom will get the first strike, but we've got more troops, and boy can they be effective.

It would be nice if IrelandOffline came up with a strategy plan for counteracting the FUD in the next couple of months. One which will include contingency plans for when the Eircom spies spot this and pass it on to the marketing department.

adam

Ardmore · 24-01-2003 11:26am

Originally posted by Tazz T
Just on the line rental bit...

I lived n the Uk for some time and moved from BT to NTL after deregulation - line rental came free with the telephone package.

Apples and oranges. NTL broadband offering is over cable. You have to have a subscription to NTLs cable TV package to get the "free" line rental, from what I can make out on the NTL website.

NTLs phone package prices in the UK are very attarctive compared to what we can get here, but they do state the the Line Rental is included in the price, and that for "TV customers line rental forms part of your pack price".

The Line Rental itself is GBP9.50 about €14.40.

Dazzer · 24-01-2003 11:30am

Jesus christ this thread is NOT about line rental charges it's about a new ADSL product and ADSL pricing structure!

Dangger · 24-01-2003 11:31am

The more clueful technology and business journalists are easy, we can counteract the FUD by simply contacting them in advance and doing a funky psychic dance with them, outlining just what will happen; so when it does, they'll go "OMFG, IrelandOffline predicted this exact scenario, must report that! Wow!" Of course, clueful journalists will understand this anyway, but they're in the minority.

Your points are valid Adam. The fud busting began last night at the O2 awards. Already people are wary and a prepared course of action as you suggest looks good to me.

MDR · 24-01-2003 11:38am

Eircom will get the first strike, but we've got more troops, and boy can they be effective.

It would be nice if IrelandOffline came up with a strategy plan for counteracting the FUD in the next couple of months. One which will include contingency plans for when the Eircom spies spot this and pass it on to the marketing department

V.good Idea,

I will have a think aboyut setting up a strategy plan ....

longword · 24-01-2003 12:26pm

Originally posted by Dazzer
I'd pay 65/70 Euro inc. VAT for a 512 down 256 up no cap ADSL product. I understand the need for caps but 4 gig's is unacceptable imho.

If you look at it objectively, it's a very fair number.

Given a 512kbit line your top download speed is about 50kBytes/sec. If you had exclusive use of that 512k line you could download in total about 125GBytes in one month if you use the line to capacity 24 hours a day every day of the week. Now if you factor in a 50:1 contention ratio, you have to share that 125GB/month with 50 other users - about 2.5GBytes/month. Which makes 4GB/month seem generous. Even with a 24:1 ratio, as per their current I-Stream product, it works out at about 5GB/month per customer.

The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

Washout · 24-01-2003 12:45pm

I wouldnt even say there would be many bandwith hogs out there seeking that kind of capacity...The trouble will arise during peak times when say 10 to 20 users are trying to download big files at the same time...most of us wouldnt even leave our PC on at home unless we wre running a persoanl web/ftp server and as there is no limit on the upstream i dint think there would be a major problem.

All in all Its a very reasonable offering finally from a very unreasoning Company... Hopefully there will be enough in the wholesale rates to allow others to compete.

My primary concern is that if your bound under the 12 month contract @ the 107 Euro Rate are you them obliged to see out to the end of that contract before you can apply for this new product or will you have the option of simply switching over existing i-stream to the higher contention ratio

dahamsta · 24-01-2003 1:06pm

I will have a think aboyut setting up a strategy plan ....

Excellent. And good stuff on using the DMA to get started Dave.

adam

Nitrox · 02-02-2003 1:58pm

When i called NTL a week ago to see if i could avail from the broadband offer they said that my area curently was not yet included (IFSC) but within two months broadband would be available. I asked the guy if it was just ISDN and he said no, it would be much faster, so only leaves ADSL then...looking forward to see the price and cap, i really want broadband NOW!
See if Ireland finally move out of the Tech. Stoneage....sorry, but no respect for the situation so far! if i lived in my own country 2 Mbit would be thrown at me at rock bottom prices no cap, but i choose to stay here for some time still and hope for the best....

zynaps · 02-02-2003 5:47pm

Originally posted by longword
The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

I've said this before, and here we go again. A service provider should set up their network so that it does this automatically, and users don't have to manage their bandwidth to 'leave some for the other users'.

Who is better equipped to determine the state of the network, how much bandwidth is available and who is requesting it than the ISP themselves?
So why expect the user to make decisions like "hmm, are other people requesting bandwidth? Am I using too much? Maybe there is plenty of spare bandwidth?"?
[/OT]

zynaps

spongebob · 02-02-2003 5:49pm

search the boards (top right click search) a bit to find out about the legendary NTL

if it WAS available (which is most unlikely in the next 5 -10 years) they would actually deny it....

longword · 03-02-2003 6:11am

Originally posted by zynaps
I've said this before, and here we go again. A service provider should set up their network so that it does this automatically, and users don't have to manage their bandwidth to 'leave some for the other users'.

Exactly what network device, from what company would you suggest be used to achieve this goal? And what's the real difference between that and a sliding cap as implemented by the likes of telenet.be?

SkepticOne · 03-02-2003 9:31am

Originally posted by Washout
All in all Its a very reasonable offering finally from a very unreasoning Company... Hopefully there will be enough in the wholesale rates to allow others to compete.

Yeah. Without competing ISPs, all this talk about caps is academic. You wil get what Eircom deem appropriate and what we say here will not matter a damn.

elexes · 03-02-2003 11:20am

Originally posted by longword

The caps are there for a reason. They encourage the bandwidth hogs to leave some for the other users.

but you do realise that if the isp cant support the need for a service they said that they can give they should not be doing it

such as the old no limits thing

if i end up paying for the unlimited dsl line i would expect that i can transfer 24x7 at max load with no questions asked since i paid for the thing

a 8 gig limit would be more like it .even 6 would of been nicer but at liest its a start

SkepticOne · 03-02-2003 11:40am

Originally posted by elexes
if i end up paying for the unlimited dsl line i would expect that i can transfer 24x7 at max load with no questions asked since i paid for the thing

I would advise going for a dedicated bandwidth solution. Unfortunately at present these tend to be expensive.

Snaga · 03-02-2003 12:01pm

But your not paying for an unlimited DSL line. Your paying for your line to be DSL enabled , being plugged into a DSLAM and getting your IP connectivity.

Your IP connectivity is there at whatever agreement you reach with the isp, at the moment that means caps for most of the services currently out there.

Theres no point assuming that its unlimited just because ISP's in other countries _choose_ to offer residential DSL with no cap.

Now personally I dont want a cap either, but I know for a residential offering its inevitable, for the moment at least. We can only hope that they up the caps to more reasonable levels ala IrishWisps jump to 12Gb.

If you need that kind of bandwidth usage then wait for SDSL which will have a contention of 1:1, no cap and be approximately 20-25% cheaper than current leased lines.

joec · 03-02-2003 4:04pm

has anyone heard any info on eircom presenting a new list of exchanges for upgrade ? or esat ?

Ardmore · 03-02-2003 4:34pm

Originally posted by joec
has anyone heard any info on eircom presenting a new list of exchanges for upgrade ? or esat ?

ESAT have a list of enabled exchanges, and those that are currently scheduled for upgrade here. They won't commit themselves to anything that isn't immediately "in the works", but at least they are making this information available.

Eircom apparently believe that this is none of our damned business, and don't seem to be willing to communicate this information at all.

A cynic would suggest that you should look for exchanges in marginal constituencies

Victor · 03-02-2003 6:22pm

Originally posted by Ardmore
ESAT have a list of enabled exchanges, and those that are currently scheduled for upgrade here.

DSL Exchanges - Below please find a list of Esat BT DSL exchanges which are launched & those due to go live shortly.

DSL Exchanges launched
...
Churchfield, Cork
Beggars Bush, Dublin
Crown Alley, Dublin
Nutley Lane, Dublin
Quaker Road, Cork ...

This is actually a list of Eircom exchanges (or sub-exchanges) that EsatBT must be connected to.

Ardmore · 03-02-2003 7:07pm

Originally posted by Victor
This is actually a list of Eircom exchanges (or sub-exchanges) that EsatBT must be connected to.

Of course it's a list of Eircom exchanges. ESAT can't deliver ADSL to customers if they don't put their equipment in the exchanges that those customers are wired up to (that is, Eircom exchanges). But the fact that there is ESAT ADSL equipment in an Eircom exchange doesn't mean that Eircom can (or will) deliver ADSL to customers of that exchange. And there are Eircom exchanges where ESAT can't install their own equipment (because Eircom says there isn't room).

joec · 03-02-2003 7:49pm

when i asked the question i knew of the esat list........but i had heard even before the announcement that eircom would be upgrading a lot more exchanges and that esat would be also................so i was wonderign has anything been leaked yet from either party.......but obviously at the mo its not gonna be announced by them until the wholesale price is agreed by comreg

Turner · 03-02-2003 8:08pm

How would one find out which exchange one is connected too ??

Victor · 03-02-2003 8:32pm

Originally posted by Chief---
How would one find out which exchange one is connected too ??

Just phone eircom customer service and ask.

Turner · 04-02-2003 4:33am

Originally posted by Victor
Just phone eircom customer service and ask.

Haaaaa haaaa HAAAAAAA ha, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHA OMFG HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA

Are you serious, as if they would know.

Chief.

Eircom announce 512K DSL @55 euros

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