RTE: Today with Pat Kenny - Etain Doyle.

Dustaz

Its funny that story made ENN. I was speaking to my dad yesterday about the pat kenny show, he openly admitted "well, most of that went over my head...whats a/s/l?". The one thing he did pick up on was the cable issue and was all up in arms about how ntl were pìssing him off and other companies should be allowed to access thier network.

After explaining how bad the network was and allowing access wouldnt make a lot of difference he went back to asking me about a/s/l for the 20th time

Paddy20

Pat Kenny has just announced that he is going to try and get an answer to some of the queries submitted too him by IOFFL members in relation to the telecommunications situation here in Ireland?.

More than ever this is the time for a "Late Late Show - Special!!.

Would the IOFFL Committee please seriously consider making an official request to Pat Kenny, outlining the social and economic importance of informing the public of the "TRUE FACTS" in relation to how they are being blatantly ripped off by Eircom.net and how Ireland is now becoming the laughing stock of Europe.

This issue has everything for an explosive Late Late show,which would make a change! what with rapidly falling viewing ratings it is a show that needs a lift and this Internet costs fiasco could be just what it needs at this time.


Yours,

paddy2;)

Mr E

Great idea, Paddy.

However, a fiver says Eircon would be too chickensh1t to send a representative.

- Dave.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
We've added some comment to the "Etain tries to lead Pat down the garden path" interview.

Peter

You might like to add comment about her suggesting I "might also look at fixed wireless access technologies…" even though there are none in Letterkenny

Great picture BTW

Martin Harran

MDR

DonegalMan,

I presume she was refering to Baem Solutions when she talked about fixed wireless access, I haven't heard from them in quite some time ? I don't support you have any knowledge of the status of their (perhaps fictious) rollout ?

spongebob

No Ray

She couldn't be joining in the puff and cant about the B*** Crew could she ? Groaaaannnnn we're fecked.

They are licenced all right according to this List here so she has probably been codded as well.

Thats a new one, think of the headline in Tonys paper.

"Regulator sells vapour on National Radio horror shock in the E-Tub of Europe ®©®™©™"

Can PK be co-joined in the complaint to the ASAI for colluding in this?

M

pork99

"Etain: It’s not as much as I want to see, but as I’m telling you within less than twelve months… sorry, this is what, September? Within twelve months or a little more we will be seeing a different situation in relation to that market."

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - YOU ARE A WASTE OF SKIN - STOP WASTING TAXPAYERS MONEY AND RESIGN

MDR

NOT GOOD ENOUGH - YOU ARE A WASTE OF SKIN - STOP WASTING TAXPAYERS MONEY AND RESIGN

Its a bit like blaming a school teacher for mis-behaving kids, I say bring back corporal punishment and then see what happens.

Canadian

Problem in this case is that the Principal is taking kickbacks from the kids causing the problems.

Oh, and the kids vote for the Princiapal, keeping the situation going as long as possible.

And when the parents complain, the Principal points to the teacher.

=====================
Vote Yes to Paris
Vote No to Nice

MDR

Problem in this case is that the Principal is taking kickbacks from the kids causing the problems.

Oh, and the kids vote for the Princiapal, keeping the situation going as long as possible.

And when the parents complain, the Principal points to the teacher.

When you driving home from work, and the traffic lights turn red, do you curse the corrupt officals in the dept of transport ?

as I have said so many times before, never attibute to malice that which can be adequetily explained by stupidity, The DoT or the DoPE when investing in national fibre infrastruct never forsaw the problems delivering services the last mile would entail (by their own admission).

The perhaps foolishily presumed that the incumbant operator, would act as it had in other markets and bend with the wind of new technology rather than fight it. Incompetence on their part for not legislating for such eventuallity perhaps, playing the blame games get us no-where at the end of the day .

mike65

He read my letter! he read my letter!

Mike.

SkepticOne

http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/pkenny.smi

About 1 minute + 30 seconds in he comments that very few people were pleased Etain Doyle and where things stand with regard to telecoms.

1hr + 6 minutes + 44 seconds
Reads letter from listener, Roy Esmond, and promises to look into it more but also says that the whole business of telecoms is a "slipery area".

Have I missed anything?

Paddy20

SkepticOne,

Yes, He once again today -"ran out of time"- & our main issue was once again - left hanging?

Do you not agree. That the issue warrants a proper airing by way of a "Live audience participation debate" with guests from ALL sectors of the telecommunications/telephony business sector, and an audience ready too eat them alive?.

This is the beginning of the Autumn/Winter TV schedule and the programme that is screaming out for a shotin the arm is Pat Kennys, Late, Late show.

The time for a - Late Late 2 hour Special - is now.

Yours,

paddy20:eek:

DonegalMan

Originally posted by MDR
DonegalMan,

... Beam Solutions ....you have any knowledge of the status of their (perhaps fictious) rollout ?

Well, I didn't want to say anything about this just yet because of the whole uncertainty that seemed to surround Beam but they are in fact due here tomorrow to install a satellite dish on a 2 week trial!

I intend to give a full report here once the system is up and running.

AFAIR you are in Letterkenny - if you or anyone else in Letterkenny area wants to see the system, PM me...I have a few ideas I would like to bounce off people in the area

Martin Harran

Paddy20

To, DonegalMan.

Martin,

Did I read somewhere that Beam or another outfit based in Letterkenny. Were about too introduce a fairly priced - Broadband - satellite Internet package deal?.

As a - Ballybofey native citizen would I be pleased to see another" -Ulster " - business leading the way. Again!,.

I sincerely hope they will be able resolve your Letterkenny to Derry communications problem. An ironic situation to find yourself in - as if we had not suffered enough.

Good luck,

Yours,

paddy20;) :cool: aka:- Paddy McLean.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by paddy20
To, DonegalMan.
Did I read somewhere that Beam or another outfit based in Letterkenny. Were about too introduce a fairly priced - Broadband - satellite Internet package deal?.

See my post above, will keep everyone informed.

As a - Ballybofey native citizen would I be pleased to see another" -Ulster " - business leading the way. Again!,.

Castlefinn would you believe.

BTW, if you are a Finn Harps supporter (and who from Finn Valley isn't ?) then you should know about my company - just look at their jerseys

Martin

Paddy20

Martin,

Nice one, Beam is based in Castlefinn?. Must get on the bush telegraph right away.

Re: Finn Harps, I was not given any alternative choice since I was a wee boy - other than too support them, or be socially ostracised by all including the family?.

Must check out the jerseys, delighted to hear your companies name is on them, hey need the sponsorship, as you will be aware.

This is geting a bit off subject, but I think the mods will forgive us - this time?.

Looking forward to reading your comments on beams giving you two weeks trial!, they must know what they are doing if they are offering you a "Trial period".

Good luck with the trial.

All the best.

paddy20:)

( Paddy McLean ) Ballybofey.

sceptre

She's threatened to withdraw NTL's digital TV licence.

Don't know if it was anything to do with

Pat: But are you going to say to NTL “The games up folks

Doubt it myself. Just the glacier finally reaching the ocean. Of course the threat is merely to withdraw NTL's digital licence which isn't going to help people much.

As it's more of a TV issue, I've started a thread on it here. Comments on this are more suited there than here - just pointing people there so bits of threads don't have to be moved. It may have implications for the network upgrades though if they choose to ignore the teacher calling them into the office.

eircomtribunal

To
Etain Doyle
ODTR
Abbey Court
Irish Life Centre
Lower Abbey Street
Dublin 1, Ireland



Ref.: Your Interview with Pat Kenny on Monday 30. 2002. Copy sent to Pat
Kenny.


Dear Etain Doyle,

While I would question many of the arguments and opinions you were putting
forward during your interview on Monday's Today with Pat Kenny, there is
one point which I would ask you to publicly clarify as a matter of urgency.
You have, perhaps unintentionally, seriously mislead Pat and the public on
a very important fact in the discussion about the lack of broadband roll
out in Ireland.

[Quote from the interview. Full transcript available on
www.eircomtribunal.com or as an audio file on www.rte.ie]

Etain:...what they have done for example in funding both Esat and
Eircom is that they have provided funding to enable both of those companies
put equipment into switches, which in turn enables them to deliver
broadband...

Pat: What will broadband be delivered on? Will it be two wires? Just two
little copper wires or does it need an upgrade?

Etain: It needs an upgrade, and what it gets is...

Pat: And that's what I'm talking about, we're talking about out in the
wilds of Connemara it's gonna cost hundreds of pounds if not thousands of
euro to get this new upgraded line to someone's house...

[Unquote]


ADSL is of course delivered over the existing two little copper wires. No
upgrade of the lines, costing thousands of euros, is required (as opposed
to the situation with NTL's cables).

May I ask you to clarify this issue publicly with Pat Kenny as soon as
possible?

Cost is not the reason why ADSL is not rolling in Ireland: As long as
Eircom is allowed to continue its grotesque overpricing of the dial-up
access (41 euros per day), it will not roll out ADSL.
And by the way: The wholesale price the ODTR has set for Eircom's ADSL is
in multiples of that of other countries, making sure that ADSL will not be
taken up sufficiently even in the small area of Dublin where Eircom is
offering it as a token. Which suits the short-term profit interest of
private company Eircom fine, but runs contrary to the interest of the
public.
Which side are you on?
For the independent observer it is becoming more and
more difficult to comprehend the government's telecommunications policy
without thinking of the C word as an explanation.

Please confirm my correspondence.


Regards

Peter Weigl




Anybody to make noises to the ODTR in this regard, too?

Peter

MDR

Lads,

For the independent observer it is becoming more and
more difficult to comprehend the government's telecommunications policy
without thinking of the C word as an explanation.

The ODTR is independent of the government, she is no elected to her position, she was appointed. She does not implement government policy.

Etain:...what they have done for example in funding both Esat and
Eircom is that they have provided funding to enable both of those companies
put equipment into switches, which in turn enables them to deliver
broadband...

Pat: What will broadband be delivered on? Will it be two wires? Just two
little copper wires or does it need an upgrade?

Etain: It needs an upgrade, and what it gets is...

Yes, the EXCHANGE needs to be upgraded, Etain attempted to explain this, Pat persumed that it was the lines that needed to be upgraded, cut across Etain and Etain didn't get a chance to explain how DSL works or anything. She was not misleading him, he just wasn't giving her a chance to explain, if people ended up mis-lead, it was Pat's fault not Etain's.

Sending messages of this type accusing people of corruption (which is more or less what you are doing) and willfully mis-leading the public, is not going to make you any friends at the ODTR, which at the end of the day will make you objectives hard to achieve.

A more kindily worded letter to the ODTR and PK explaining that you didn't feel Etain got the opportunity to fully explain DSL technology and asking the ODTR and PK to clarify how the technology works might go down much better.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by MDR


.. it was Pat's fault not Etain's.

Sir,

Please let us all be careful with words here.

Let me start with the main issue of my letter to Etain Doyle. I am stating that she has, "perhaps unintentionally, seriously mislead Pat and the public on a very important fact in the discussion about the lack of broadband roll out in Ireland."

What makes you say that I accuse her of "willfully mis-leading the public" ?

You try to defend Etain against Pat: "if people ended up mis-lead, it was Pat's fault not Etain's."

What is the big deal? Hundred of thousands of listners were mislead - as in misinformed - on a crucial issue of the broadband rollout debate, whether Pat caused it or Etain. In my opinion Etain did have a fair chance to correct Pat [just read the transcript and see how short Pat's "cutting across her" was and how Etain did nothing to correct the misunderstanding she herself had created] , but that is of no significance. Live radio can be a cruel medium and we should judge neither Pat nor Etain about the misinformation that materialised in the end.

"May I ask you to clarify this issue publicly with Pat Kenny as soon as
possible?" I wrote and I honestly can't see anything wrong with the content or the form of my request.

Further to your arguments:
"Sending messages of this type accusing people of corruption (which is more or less what you are doing) and willfully mis-leading the public, is not going to make you any friends at the ODTR)"

While I did not accuse the ODTR of corruption I have stated that "it is becoming more and more difficult to comprehend the government's telecommunications policy without thinking of the C word as an explanation."

Corruption is most dangerous not in its crude form of the backhander in the brown envelope. There are more subtle versions at work here, which may help allow Eircom to continue its 3 year long Denial of Service attack on a whole nation. Things like giving newspapers and other media connectivity at very special rates to keep them sweet or making substantial (declared?) donations to political parties by giving them connectivity for their party conferences worth tens of thousands of euros should be investigated. Rte's ADSL trial with Eircom was and is a scam, a cynical exercise not to introduce ADSL as promised. What about the influence big big advertising and sponsoring spender Eircom can exert over Rte for example?

If it is not corruption, what's your guess?

Peter

PS.: Did you read the reply to the Letter to Etain on www.eircomtribunal.com?
It is an honest and very well-informed defence of the ODTR's position and gives good insight into the workings of the ODTR.

Canadian

We've been arguing on another discussion thread about whether corruption or stupidity is to blame for the Information Famine.

I agree with you, I think its corruption (being fairly new here, I recently was told about Tony O'Reily & all the 'connections' he has - it smells as bad as puke that covers temple bar).

MDR seems to be an advocate of the stupidity theory.

Whichever the root cause, it has to be fixed before real change occurs. Ireland Offline is trying to improve the situation thru Education - attacking the 'Stupidity' problem. (and they seem to be having an effect - well done lads!)

But if you and I are correct - no amount of Education will stop the brown envelope or one of its less obvious metaphors.

Anybody else think a Corruption/Stupidity vote would be interesting? Can boards.ie accomidate this?

========================
I used to think Yes was correct
Then I went to www.no2nice.org
and changed my mind...

PiE

I agree with Peter & Canadian. Blaming the mess this country is in on stupidity is letting the people responsible off the hook. Eircom has too much sway, it's tentacles are wrapped around all aspects of mainstream media in Ireland, the internet being the only obvious one not controlled by it (but oh how they've tried...).

dahamsta

To be honest, I think that MDR has too much faith in his favourite aphorism. I wouldn't deny for a second that there's a fair portion of stupidity involved - certainly from the Governmental side, but also from certain elements in the comms companies; and some of it is gross stupidity on a grand scale; but I think that the majority of blame should be attributed to corruption. There have been backhanders, and favours, and much more besides. I can't prove it, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.

adam

Fergus

No doubt here either. The corruption mostly takes the form of /not/ doing things, 'mistakes'. delays, etc.

If we accept that the problem is corruption, then we should also accept that certain parties are therefore involved in the corruption, and dealing with them is pointless.

It would be useful if we could establish a list of who is and isn't corrupt, and then only work with those we know are not. Obviously, the only way the corrupt core is going to concede to our demands is when they are forced to.. by the non corrupt elements.

MDR

If it is not corruption, what's your guess?

Corruption, corruption, corruption ... jesus

I was at dinner party on saturday night, and I spent the evening listening to a Health Service manager argue similiarily about layoffs in the health services.

Yes I do have great faith in my old adage 'Never attribute to malice ... ', mostily because I see regularily what an incredabily stupid race the Irish are (present company exempt of course).

I don't belive in the great corruption of the Irish Government. Don't get me wrong, I do believe there is corruption out there, but I refuse to use it as an 'explain all' as it is sometimes used in this neck of the woods.

My problem with corruption, in the area of telecoms is that apart from Eircom I fail to see who benefited, Mary O'Rouke perhaps, does she live a Mansion, I honestily don't know.

The more I look at the ODTR the more I relise how little power they have, similar situation with regards to the DoPE. The ODTR, DoPE, ForFas, Enterprise Ireland, IBEC all make loud noises about the importance of broadband and FRIACO.

They presumed that if they invested in the fibre and subsidised broadband delivery in regions, that industry would provide. The DoPE said 'they never invisaged the problems last mile access would pose', I believe them.

My firm belief at the heart of this problem is a incumbant operator who has a very large budget aimed at making as much money from the Irish market as possible. You have a government who has telecoms very far down on their list of priorities (perhaps until recentily). You have a toothless regulator. You had in the past far to much dependance on the Incumbant doing the right thing. Was the Government stupid, of course, was it corrupt ... nah, stupid is still enough explaination for me.

So tell me exactily, who is corrupt and why ? I call your bluff, show me the great Irish telecom corruption.

As for the interview with Pat and Etain, my last word on it. When I listened to it, I found Pat constantily cutting across Etain. Racing through different telecoms areas, Pat made a presumption about the delivery of DSL, Etain wasn't given a chance to respond properily and then soon after the subject changed. Were the public mislead about the nature of delivery of DSL, yes, but Etain Doyle is not the memory woman, I can forgive her for not remembering to come back and clarify.

Pat as interviewer is there asking questions on behalf of the people, if the people don't get a straight answer because Pat didn't give his guest a proper chance to respond me thinks thats Pat's problem. If you have a problem with the way the Interview was conducted, you should be talking to Pat.


Sorry, I am aware I didn't respond to all points, but I am afraid I have word to do.

eircomtribunal

As for the interview with Pat and Etain, my last word on it. When I listened to it, I found Pat constantily cutting across Etain. Racing through different telecoms areas, Pat made a presumption about the delivery of DSL, Etain wasn't given a chance to respond properily and then soon after the subject changed. Were the public mislead about the nature of delivery of DSL, yes, but Etain Doyle is not the memory woman, I can forgive her for not remembering to come back and clarify.

I know it is your last word on it. Still, reading through the transcript of the interview passage might be no harm:

Etain: No, but what they have done for example in funding both Esat and Eircom is that they have provided funding to enable both of those companies put equipment into switches, which in turn enables them to deliver broadband…

Pat: What will broadband be delivered on? Will it be two wires? Just two little copper wires or does it need an upgrade?

Etain: It needs an upgrade, and what it gets is…

Pat: And that’s what I’m talking about, we’re talking about out in the wilds of Connemara it’s gonna cost hundreds of pounds if not thousands of Euro to get this new upgraded line to someone’s house…

Etain: Well, can we talk about where we are at the minute, the government has assisted in funding both the Eircom and Esat to actually upgrade its basic equipment in the switches that you upgrade in order to deliver what’s known as this DSL technology, which provides ten times the speed… up to… a great deal more it can be… up to two megabits. But most of what we’re about is at 500 kilobits instead of at 56. And the government has provided money towards that and I think Esat is on record saying that they wouldn’t have done this except that that was available… so, yes, I think that we need in relation to broadband to look at this as a great national planning effort,..."


Reading it again it is hard to see your point that Pat had not allowed Etain to rectify the false assumption, which she had clearly caused herself.
Actually, reading now how she goes on talking about "the great national planning effort" necessary, makes me think she might even have held the opinion that a costly upgrade to the two copper wires was necessary...?!

But we should not be bickering about that really. The question whether we should forgive her never arises. All I've asked her is to correct a misleading information about the need to upgrade wirelines, as she had participated in giving out the misleading information. No blame game necessary.

I'd agree fully with your cautionary comments about corruption.Corruption of the backhander type could not explain why Eircom is not stopped in exercising its ongoing Denial of Service attack on a whole nation with enormous detrimental effect. So corruption is probably a misleading expression. Something much more dangerous is at work here. No use to look for the one bad apple. The disease is endemic.


Peter

Canadian

Something much more dangerous is at work here. No use to look for the one bad apple. The disease is endemic.

I've often wondered why so many things are priced higher here than anywhere else.... I found out recently that pharmacies require special licenses which are not granted if another pharmacy is nearby. This is called a Cartel in some countries.

It seems like the government has some problem with open, unregulated competition. I'm not sure if this is to keep foreign (english?) investors/companies out ... but the long term effect is to lower the Irish standard of living.

If decisions in Ireland were based on economics, Football would be played at the bigger stadium....

You are right, something more dangerous is at work....

MDR

The pharmacy licensing laws date from the late 19th century, as did the taxi laws, and the public house licensing laws. All these laws worked fine and did not warrant reform until perhaps the very earily 1990's.

Unfortunately all these group have a very strong governmental lobby, these earn plenty of money and so have plenty of cash to spend lobbying government against the changes that keep them rolling in the cash.

Thankfully the taxi laws were eventually sorted out, I was hearing until recentily that the pharmacy laws were going to be sorted as well soon (because of the lack of pharmacies in new areas of Dublin, and no available licenses to build them with).

The liqour licensing laws unfortunately are very complex, with serveral different lobbies argueing against reform. on different grounds ranging from Quality of Service to Tourism to Health.

The government was going to reform them during the last Dail, however our good friend Jackie Healy Rae and independent td from the deep bog, who held the balance of power in the government, also owns a pub and threatened to walk if the government tried to force throught reform ... call it corruption if you will, some would call it and unfortunately side-effect of democracy.

LFCFan

...that politicians can be allowed into office if they have a vested interest in a business of any kind. It means they won't be impartial and that's where corruption starts. Too many of our wonderful TD's have other business interests so it's no wonder they're as corrupt as they are. The Irish Government are like the rudders of the Titanic. Too weak to be able to turn Ireland into the 21st Century so we're just gonna crash and burn.