Do you think Irish should be a compulsory school subject?

Winning Hand

Not 100% sure why the poll was closed but ill stick my foot in notheless. I have a love hate affair with the irish language which ill try to put accross as clear as possible

I find Irish to be an interesting language, the intricacies of the constructions are quaint, take for example the 'Ghábh mo leith scéil' which means 'Im sorry', but the actual literal translation is 'excuse my half story'. However this is being destroyed from within with the introduction of 'Béarlachas' every new word is just an english derivative with a couple of fadas and 'achas' at the end.

Also Im sick of going on holiday abroad only to overhear the drunken Irish shouting out 'key phrases' such as 'Conas atá tú' and the classic 'Póg mo thón bhoy' ''sea bhoy' 'Tá me ............. ****ed'.

Another arguement that gets me going is having an intelligent discussion with intelligent people about the validity of Irish and the persons inablity to sway from their usual static arguement of 'Its our culture', fúck that, I dont feel bound to my fellow countryman due to a common language, especially since most of them cant even speak it.

So if I had all power I would first of all make Irish optional after junior cert, remove the bonus for doing the exams through Irish, execute any person who adresses the dail in english, beat any civil servant who isnt fluent in it.
Or I would just abolish the language altogether.

Penos

Irish is our language and should be tought in schools as a compulsory subject because if it wasn't for the english we would all be speaking the language now. if u give up irish because its to "hard" then you should give up your nationality aswell and pack up your balls and leave for england or wherever!

Casey

In the words of the great Irish educational institution that was Bosco, id just like to say that if the Irish language was no longer compulsery in Irish schools it would be UFASACH........absolutely ufasach boys and girls!!!

David-[RLD]-

Hmm...

making Irish optional would make the percentage of failures drop below 0.1% as only people with a true interest in it (such as myself) would take it up.

Then again, making it optional could just be sentencing our proud langauge to death. It's older than English for God's sake. It's survived for thousands of years and I doubt it will ever die as long as the way it's taught is improved.

Gleanndún

my vote is i think it should be....but i dont know how to cast it. i couldnt find any "take this poll button" or anything~_~

Gleanndún

Originally posted by Fand
I would make Irish part of an "Irish Studies" course which would take in all aspects of our culture including traditional music and dancing, history and geography. But in the end, if people hate their culture they won't want to learn about it.

There are lots of people who hate Irish because they hate being Irish. And if they're the democratic majority, fine; if that's the way they want their country to be, fine.

Irish actually *isn't* hard to learn. Not unless you don't want to. Oh, I know, the grammar is awful. But to learn decent conversational Irish is astoundingly easy: go to any of the adult Irish courses around the coasts in summer and you'll find a million foreigners who've learned to speak Irish within a few weeks.

I honestly don't think the whole biz about compulsory Irish is much to do with the difficulty of the languge. It's much more to do with our attitude to ourselves. There are lots of kids out there who think it's an accomplishment to have failed to learn Irish - an attitude which can't but bleed into their whole way of thinking.

I think that this is a very estute observation. I've studied many different languages, and I must say Irish is challenging, but not necissarily that complicated. I've found that learning a language is, for most people, all in the attitude. Many people always "marvel" at my "linguistic ability", how I learn languages so well and they can't. I always ask them the same question: "Well, do you LIKE learning that language; do you WANT to learn it?" and 99% of the time, the answer is a clear "no." All the people I know who do excellently in a language class are always obsessed with the language and adore every aspect, every little quirk of it. That's what makes me so good at languages. And besides, who says ramming it down your throat won't ever pay off? That's how the Irish learned English, isn't it?

Gleanndún

Originally posted by Calman
Irish people aren't identified by a language.
In my opinion Irish people are good- whether they can speak Irish or not doesn't matter. You can see that they're good by the Irish language as in "Dia is Muire duit"- "God and Mary be with you" but if we suddenly couldn't speak Irish I believe we'd still be a good nation.

On the contrary, a language and its culture are inextricably linked. The best way to learn a language is to learn the culture, and the best way to understand a culture is to learn the corresponding language. Did you ever notice how all travel brochures refer to the Gaeltacht as "the seat of irish culture"? how the gaeltacht has the thickest and most vibrant of all irish culture? This is not a coincidence. Just like those little things like "ghábh mo leath scéil" it expresses that cultures view on the world. For example, the Japanese word for "thankyou" is literally "it is a trouble/difficulty (do you)" that's because that is how the Japanese view a favor, not as centered around you and giving them thanks, but rather around the other party and their sacrifice for you. When it is replaced by an japonified english "thankyou" this is erased. The same is true of "go raibh maith agat." This is also why, as was offered earlier, I believe that the government should provide trips to the Gaeltachtaí, as a vital part of learning the language.

luckat

One warning: this debate raged about Latin in the 1960s. Should it be kept on the curriculum, should it be compulsory for university entrance, and so on.

The get-rid-of-Latin advocates won. Oh yes, they said it should be offered as part of a cultural studies curriculum, etc. But it wasn't. Nor will Irish be if it's discarded.

So if you want to get rid of Irish, do - but just know what you're doing.

If you want Irish people to become a kind of English suburb with a faint memory that once we were a nation, get rid of your language. If you value your culture, your heritage and your people, learn Irish, learn about Irish culture, speak the language and teach it to your children.

It's your choice.

Agent Smith

i think if irish was an option, people would still do (alto not in as large a number


i at present am sitting my leaving cert in a few months and would love to have been able to drop it for a ssubject that is more relevant to what i want to do in collage but cant. so people who deside to to irish can give it all the effort it need,s



as my irish teacher said a few months ago, " i know ordinary leval irish isnt the highest thing on your mind so lets just get it over and done with....."




The man loves irish but teaches a class that hate's it...
it would be better for it to be a option so people who are there are there because they want to be.... not forced like i am

zenith

Originally posted by luckat
If you want Irish people to become a kind of English suburb with a faint memory that once we were a nation, get rid of your language.

I think that happened a long time ago for the majority of people on this Island, and there's a significant minority for whom it was never true. That's the story of our nation, like it or not, and no policy is going to be able to turn it back. Gaeltachtai are not going to spontaneously reappear, no matter how much we wish it.

I think that if only one-half of one percent (a wild underestimate, I'd say) continue to do Irish, but do so willingly - witness the rise of the Gaelscoileannna - then the net effect on the vibrancy of the language will be identical with smaller effort. It might afford the opportunity of introducing additional civics and cultural studies, which will have the same effect of reiforcing the remaining aspects of our nationhood, but with less arm-twisting.

luckat

Zenith, are you genuinely saying that you think Ireland has become an English suburb for the majority of people in this country?

zenith

I was referring to the loss of national identity you mention as being a possibility of abandoning our language (the quote "faint memory that once we were a nation").

I'm saying that our 'national identity' is slipping much faster than people think, may not ever have really existed, at least for a large section of the population, and that toeing the line at compulsory Irish ("They shall not pass!") is somewhat akin to digging the moat as the castle burns.

It's probably best to save what we can and let it evolve, rather than turning it into a subsidised theme park that is never-changing.

But you're entitled to your opinion: I can and would speak Irish every day if there was any point, so don't think I welcome our alien overlords, will you? I just want to save what can be saved.

---

Some food for thought: http://www.medialive.ie/Television/top-tw.html

Irish programs occupy eight of the thirty top ten slots on this link currently, and sixteen of the top sixty. Not one of them in Irish. Other than the Late Late, no current affairs.

andrew163

hmm...

I've been learning Irish, like everybody else, since junior infants... I'm now in 5th year...

I started learning German in 1st year and I know more German then Irish... i'm alot more confident in my ability to speak german...

I also noticed that ive learned more irish this year (i.e. since september) then I had since junior infants before then, possibly because the teacher doesn't stick to the textbooks rigidly like most other teachers.

Imho Irish should be kept compulsary, but only if every irish teacher in the country is re-trained to use the same methods that are used to teach languages like french/german/spanish. (taught step-by-step, not having everything thrown together... that's where it gets confusing, people start tripping over different grammar points, etc.)

Gleanndún

Originally posted by zenith
I was referring to the loss of national identity you mention as being a possibility of abandoning our language (the quote "faint memory that once we were a nation").

I'm saying that our 'national identity' is slipping much faster than people think, may not ever have really existed, at least for a large section of the population, and that toeing the line at compulsory Irish ("They shall not pass!") is somewhat akin to digging the moat as the castle burns.

It's probably best to save what we can and let it evolve, rather than turning it into a subsidised theme park that is never-changing.

But you're entitled to your opinion: I can and would speak Irish every day if there was any point, so don't think I welcome our alien overlords, will you? I just want to save what can be saved.

I know that personally every single time i tell sum1 that im learning irish i get either, "umean gaelic?" or the sadly, more comman, and infinitely more frustrating: "don't they just speak english with an accent? they dont have their own language." some people wont even BELIEVE me after i tell them that the irish DO have their own language:( sumthing i thought might b a relevent point.

luckat

Andrew, I'm *so* with you there. Every Irish teacher in the country should be sent to Oideas Gael (flirting i nGaeilge) (and don't say it's "as Gaeilge", either, that's only for *translation from*).

The language is taught as if it's a duty. Of *course* it should be taught in its cultural context.

In the sense of our own nationality, we're under a flood of (unconscious) cultural propaganda from the English TV stations and even our own: the picturing of Britain and Ireland as if they were a unit divorced from Europe in maps; references to Ireland as "local" or as a country within "the UK", the new phrase "Brit'n'Ireland"; the use of English accents in advertisements even on RTE radio and TG4; the naming of housing estates as if they were enclaves in Sussex - "The Gallops"! even (lacking any irony whatsoever!) "Tudor Downs"! - the patronising of anyone who wants to speak Irish as if they were a nationalist relic.

It's dangerous; the generation that does this is going to look to its roots for help one day and fail to find nourishment, because it will have cut them away.

So yes, our teachers must be retrained, and must learn to think their way through what they want.

It's a horror that we have instituted an educational system that is a replica of the "murder machine" of the 1900s. Education here should foster children, teach them to grow up into thinking, creative, strong adults. Instead we feed them a diet of pap, and they turn into a kind of huge middle-class lumpenproletariat with no sense of their own culture, no respect for their roots, no ability to create, and no desire or curiosity or love.

</rant>

Gleanndún

wuts the "murder machine" of the 1900s?

snickerpuss

I know a lot of people who hate irish with a passion and think we shouldn't speak it anymore. But equally i know a lot of people who wish they could speak irish better, who are proud of it but feel that the irish they learn in school hasn't helped them, that they still cant speak it. I think lots more people are learning irish and sending their kids to gaelscoileanna too. The one i went to is overcrowded now and to get in you practically have to put your childs name down when you are pregnant. It sure wasnt like that when my parents put me there.
I feel very strongly about keeping irish alive but i dont know what to do to help.

Gleanndún

same here:dunno:
only thing i kno 2 do is learn it, but i wish i could do more:(

Vader

Irish should be a compulsory subject gan dabht ar bith.
It is a very astetic and poetic language, the words are beautifully balanced as regards syllabills and vowels.
Learning languages with different syntaxes increases your reasoning power, fact.
Irish is part of our heritage. Irish legends and local histories are in Irish. Irish poetry and prose on the L cert course is better quality than that on the eng course.

Its our own secret language. Live abroad for even a few months and you'll appreciate your national identity.


But why make it compulsory? Try explaining the above to a teenager and all you'll get, is "ba cuma liom!". Nah but they all say, "OMG, youll never use it, and whats the point in maths when you can just use calcu;ators, why learn eng when you dont use it for txtn and whats the point in french when Im never goin to france."

Irish is great. Its unique. It contains secret treasures. Its benificial and practical. Youll thank me when your older. It should e compulsory i mo thuarim.

Tir gan teanga, tir gan anim!

Gleanndún

I couldnt agree more. I remember being in my trig class and every1 would ALWAYS complain about "y do we have 2 learn math? we're never gonna use it! wah wah wah." yuck. but if they ever want a job outside of liberal arts or a gracery clerk, they will need it, they just dont want 2 admit it. doesnt it just frustrate u sumtimes? tír gan teanga, tír gan ainm. <---sumtimes i feel like if things keep up they way they r, in the future theyll b callin the irish revolution the "british civil war":(

Seraphina

the problems with irish are definately at primary level imo, when i hit secondary school, i was expected to know all this grammer that we had never covered in primary school. the reason? most of the teachers probably scraped into teaching because of irish, they just didn't know enough.
i think the level of irish to do primary teaching should be much higher, perhaps make all national schools all-irish schools. learning another language at that age is infinately simpler, its practically just absorbed.
unfortunately like me, most people hit secondary school with basic knowledge and spend six years struggling to catch up with the level of irish they are expected to have.
luckily i had an excellent teacher and even though i hated her and irish for the first few years, i gradually learned to respect and love the language. i'll never forget her for that.
but even now, while studying irish in university, i'm encountering the same problems. so much emphasis on poetry and prose, and while i enjoy it, i feel more emphasis on speaking and understanding the language would be a much better idea, if even in first year.
however thats the way the cookie crumbles, and i'm still gonna work at it

to all those who say, its difficult, i shouldn't have to learn it cause i dont need it, thats what education is about you twats. learning stuff you dont know. you'd come out of education an ignorant idiot with a very narrow world view if you only learned easy stuff. and you wouldn't know HOW to learn. if you were hit with something difficult in college you wouldn't be able to cope with it because you'd never had to bother with anything difficult before. what happens when you need to start learning, be it in relation to your job, whatever.

education is not about cramming relavent facts into your head. its about exercising your brain, and learning how to use it, expanding your horizons and all that. its not just a lead up to whatever soulless money-making career you decide to choose :P

uberwolf

I was brought up bilingually and lived in England until I was eight, I only missed the compulsory Irish cut off point by a few months. All through school I was hockeyed about the place for my grammer, (my dad was more an aspirational than qualified gaelgoir my teachers refused to play along and kocked my irish constantly, only twice did I get A's in honours. Both my state exams. This focus on the particulars at the cost of communication was disheartening for me, I can only imagine whats its like for someone with weaker Irish.

On a related topic my sister was having a torrid time in her Gaelscoil for 2 or 3 years, she even had to repeat a year. Her teachers thought she was lazy, until she was diagnosed dyslexic (sp, ironically), again the Irish confused the situ hence the delayed diagnosis. The approach need review. The language not so, its our identity and link to our past.

Gearoid

posted by lyconix

I can see that you enjoy embracing Irish culture and language, but can't you just think of others beyond yourself for a second and think of the misery that Irish language is causing to Leaving Cert students who find it extremely difficult to learn and infuriating since they don't want to learn it?

this is VERY hypocrtical, you yourself won't listen to anyone else, why can't YOU think of others who have to do subjects that you like and they don't, I dislike maths therefore by your reasoning it should be made optional, the same with anything else anyone doesn't want to do.
Dead language you say, yes certainly we all come to the Gaeilge forum to mourn Irish:rolleyes:
IMHO Irish is more use to me than french, I can watch irish language television more than French, I don't know many french speakers but I know plenty ppl who can carry a conversation in Irish.

Gleanndún

Here Here!

Vader

Heres a very important point which most irish ppl dont realise, RTE Nuacht is different from RTE news. Often there will be a report on the Nuacht that wont be on the news till 6.1, and if you can speak irish you can get the nuacht again at 5:30.

Irish is useful.

TG4 has better programms than RTE1 imo.

snickerpuss

Yeh theres subjects im really bad at, and i have a lot of trouble with but i dont complain bout it. Im truely woeful at maths but im not on a "when will i need it in the real world" thing. I just do it. I love irish. Its my favourite subject and hopefully ill do it in college. But i do find it hard too. Grammer and spelling are scary but i can understand it just fine. Cant just give up on everything cos its hard.

Gleanndún

Think of where the Irish would be if the revolutionaries had given up when it was hard? And it was VERY hard, and most of the time as well. But you can't just give up because somethings hard, because nothing good can arise without hard work.

dlofnep

I find the feedback in this topic most interesting. On a personal level, I would love to be more fluent in Irish. I am in awe when I see a full blown gaelic conversation between two people and I envy them with a deep passion.

I think gaeilge should be a mandatory subject, our heritage is fading as it is..

Gleanndún

i find it really interesting 2, which is y it makes me sad that every1 cms 2 have exhausted their opinions~_~ no1 else has nething 2 say?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by dlofnep
I find the feedback in this topic most interesting. On a personal level, I would love to be more fluent in Irish. I am in awe when I see a full blown gaelic conversation between two people and I envy them with a deep passion.

I think gaeilge should be a mandatory subject, our heritage is fading as it is..

I'm the same. My girlfriend is fluent in Irish. I envy her so much it's unbelievable.