Do you think Irish should be a compulsory school subject?

Fand

Hairdressing? Yes! I've always wanted to be able to cut hair, and it's a dead handy trade - you can bring it anywhere with you, it doesn't depend on speaking the local language (even in Connemara) and it pays reasonably well.

As for useful outside the Leaving Cert - ok, sure, fair enough, perhaps you should shed all those subjects which will never be of any use: religion can go for a start, history, geography (after all, most people can't read maps anyway). We should limit Leaving Cert subjects to those which will help us to make money.

When is Irish useful? If you want to seduce someone (God forbid); if you want to climb rapidly in certain careers, such as law, where it's a kind of badge of friendliness; if you want to remember who you are.

But maybe you should go for commerce instead, it probably suits you better.

Fand

Oh, disregard my last post – I totally lost my temper: the idea of anyone learning anything because it’s going to be of use to them makes me rave and tear my hair and foam at the mouth – and the idea of anyone not loving Irish makes me so sad I can’t bear it.

But then I love learning: if they’d taught Urdu in school I’d have signed up eagerly for it, out of mad curiosity – though it would certainly not have been any use.

You’re going to win, you know? You’re going to succeed in knocking Irish off the syllabus, because once it’s not compulsory, people aren’t going to want to bother with it, because, like you, they feel it is not going to advance their careers in any way.

And Irish will die. But why mourn: a language dies every 20 minutes at the moment, according to the figures kept by the linguists who watch these things. Why not let another one go.

Your children will probably ask you to say a few words in Irish to them every now and again; but if you don’t know any, don’t worry. Just tell them it wouldn’t have been any use to them.

Lyconix

I respect your views, and certainly I'm all for the Irish culture staying alive and well, and being around for generations to come... I can see that you enjoy embracing Irish culture and language, but can't you just think of others beyond yourself for a second and think of the misery that Irish language is causing to Leaving Cert students who find it extremely difficult to learn and infuriating since they don't want to learn it? There are the people who love Irish and are doing well in it, and coming out of the LC exam with straight A's, but of course there are also many people who aren't linguically minded who do terribly in their LC and owe this in large part to Irish.

This suggests a logical course of action... Irish should be made OPTIONAL. That way, those people who like it and do well in it can pursue it to the LC, and those who can't hack it and are better suited with a different field of learning can give it a pass and do something else that suits them better. The Irish culture is strong and rich but in being forced upon us, it is losing some of its meaning. Culture is something that people should embrace WILLINGLY and not forcibly as is the case at present...

ThreadKiller

Just because Riverdance was successful doesn't mean that children should be subjected to having to learn an obsolete language. Teach them French or German instead, it'll do them far more good in the long run.

We have enough heritage to be able to dump the language now.

androphobic

This argument is one on which people will always differ. This must be at least the 3rd such argument on the Gaeilge board alone.

I could counter-argue the "Irish is useless" argument with a "Differentiation and Integration are useless" one, or maybe a "Hamlet might be a good Shakespearean drama, but when will I ever need to quote it again?" argument, but I don't think I'll bother.

I did the LC last year and got an A2 in honours Irish. Now I'm studying International Business and Languages (French and German) in Dublin. My course has absolutely no Irish in it whatsoever, so I'll never use Irish on a professional level. But, as I have said before I'm sure, if and when I have children of my own, I want to be able to help them with their Irish homework. Personally, I think that that is worth much more than many people realise.

I can only speak for myself, but personally I would have loved if my parents had had the academic capacity to have been able to take a strong interest in my schoolwork. Both are intelligent people but neither maintained any sort of interest in Irish and many other subjects after completing their own Leaving Certs, and so by the time I got to mine, they were really no help to me whatsoever!

It didn't hinder me or anything, I still got an excellent LC, but when my turn comes around, I want to be able to help my children and take an active interest in their schoolwork. For that reason, and just because a language is always an interesting subject to learn (although since I'm studying languages, I might be slightly biased ), I'm glad I learned Irish in school.. time-consuming and complex as it was.. .. and I hope to keep it up in some way or another. That hardly makes me a fanatic.. just interested in something which was, and in some ways still is, an inherent part of my country and its culture.

Just my two cents.

Lyconix

Keep in mind Androphobic that some people find languages extremely difficult to learn - surely you can understand the frustration in having to put so much blood and sweat into trying to understand something you have no interest in?

androphobic

Yes, i do understand that. I hated Maths for the LC.. found it difficult to learn and put an enormous amount of work into it and still only managed to get a C (HL). Anyway, my point is that even though I found it a lot of work and difficult to do, I'm still glad I did it because, although it isn't relevant for my college course, I'll always have it. Same with Irish.

Lyconix

It isn't worth all that effort - all that blood and sweat just to have the satisfaction of "having it" - you could be learning something relevant or interesting instead...

Chaos-Engine

I think Irish has to be reexamined in its present teaching methods and the type of teachers that teach it.... Irish is used as punishment... That attachs alot of negativity to the subject by the time a child gets to secondary....

I think Irish shouldn't be required for all NUI colleges... Just specific courses such as "Irish and Commerce" and "Lingustics" etc....

Now the hardcore comments:

1. All Primary Schools should be Irish schools... Even for non-Nationals....

2. Secondary SChools do not have to be irish schools. BUt the vast majority should be...

3. Irish is only compulsory up until the Junior Cert.... Not afterward... There should be more scope for specialisation in the Leaving Cert....


As for Irish vanishing i think allow ppl to choose has lots of benefits... Sure ppl will leave and FAST... thats because they are no good and irish and want other subjects which they will get more points in... The Leaving Cert is about Points NOT whether r not the subject will be any use to you after School.....

Anyway I now lots of ppl who have Irish as there best subject and that r aiming for an A1 in it... I can't see them dropping it

Maybe if Irish was compulsory for the Civil Service, Army(Officers) and Police(officers) then we would see it still being taken in a similar amount to French or German...

All this is coming out of someone who never sat the Irish Exam in the Leaving (Dyslexic ****)...

BUt for all those that can't get exemtions.. All you have to do is apply to the Department of Education and Science as an External Student. That way u don't have to sit the Irish exam (all those Institute and Bruce ppl r external students).... It just means u won't be able to go to an NUI. Who wants to anyway?

Fand

Well, I for one am convinced that virtually all teachers hate and fear Irish, and have transmitted their hatred and their fear to those they "teach".

Consider the attitude of most Irish people to opening their mouth and saying a word in Irish - there's a flinch there, a terror and anger, waiting for some other Irish person with the soul <?> of a national teacher to correct their pronunciation, their usage or their grammar.

I proudly and happily speak ungrammatical, badly-pronounced Irish, and anyone who corrects me will feel the edge of my tongue in two languages at least.

As for the music and the culture - I love Irish music, used to get a blast out of the chaotic célí in the St Louis school hall opposite the Town Hall in Rathmines on Wedenesday nights (is it still going?), and like a lot of Irish poetry, in English or in Irish; I also like Sigur Ros - just listening to Agaetis Byrjun as I write - and Storvan and the Black Boys from Alabama and bluegrass and Benny Goodman.

I'm scared, though, that a language that still - barely - has a chance of regaining the basic number of speakers that would allow it once again to be a spoken language, full of slang and nonsense and fun and its own mad idiosyncratic ways of saying things, will lose that chance because of a bunch of fat-bottomed bitches (in which I include the men) of Irish teachers.

Baz_

The really awful fact of the matter here is that Irish is the worst thaught language in schools. I did Irish for 12 years, German for 8 and I know infinitely more German than Irish (since I know 0 Irish, and 0 into anything is infinity).

I hated Irish in school, absolutely hated it, and it wasn't until sixth year in secondary that one day I said to meself "how in the name of God do you construct a sentence in Irish", for example in German the general rule is 8 [person] + verb + [time] + [manner] + [place], and when I realised that I didn't know even this basic rule, I gave Irish up myself. It wasn't something I enjoyed having to do but I knew that I couldn't learn an entire language in two months, so I just stopped trying.

Thats the basic point: Irish is thaught badly, and until the Irish government get up off their arses and try to reform the way of teaching, so that after a year we can say write a passage about ourselves and our family and our hobbies, and after two years everything previous + a bit of everyday conversational stuff, then it should be optional. I know some of you might be thinking "but if I can't do that how can a child of 4-6 do it, well to you I say don't forget that the younger you are the faster and better you learn.

I also think that to have Irish as a compulsory language the government should also make at least one trip to the gaelteacht compulsory (by paying for it of course) and that way people can have a chance to use Irish on a practical basis, in which way they will learn a lot more.

On the point of lyconix saying that it is unfair to make people who know they will fail do the subject, I agree. On the point of androphobic saying she understood because she only got a c in honours maths, well then she quite obviously doesn't understand, I got an e in pass irish, and I didn't have the option to do foundation so as I could at least salvage a little pride, at least she could have dropped to pass and gotten an A easily, so don't start saying you understand because you don't and can't.

Lyconix

Baz I relate to your story... what is the point in struggling to learn a compulsory subject when you know you cannot do it? I know the Irish-hardcores will counter that with "if you put in enough effort, it is possible" - and obviously it is, but being only human, I need motivation to take on something so big as to learn a language - and HOW am I going to feel motivated to put in the time, the effort, the sweat and the blood if I KNOW that I'll NEVER USE the language in the future? The irony is incredible... as you say Baz, you wasted hours of classes for 12 years trying to learn Irish. Imagine the stuff you could be learning instead, stuff you find interesting or plan to make use of...

Personally I'm not very mathematically minded so I struggle with Maths, but I know I've got to try my hardest and I DO put in a lot of work with it because I know I'll need it in later life if I decide to pursue a computer programming career. Struggling to learn something you are not going to need, use or enjoy is a waste of time and should not be done.

DeadBankClerk

Originally posted by Baz_
(since I know 0 Irish, and 0 into anything is infinity).

isnt 0 into anything undefined?

i think the way irish is taught is pathetic. in my old school we learned irish from day one and french from 1st year. i can speak french. the french sylabus is based around speaking and conversing in french. the irish sylabus expects its pupils to analyise poetry and other stuff, that is silly. irish needs to be taught in a way that we can SPEAK and UNDERSTAND it.

(first post on this board in 45 days )

Baz_

em kindof, it is infinity, but its infinity itself that is not completely defined. The mind boggles.

Bard

and yet the result stays deadlocked - 46.67% For YES, 46.67% for NO.

hmph.

Figment

Irish is a dead and empty language without the culture, song and traditions that go with it.
Why arnt these tought with it? Every language needs a frame of reference. We are thought (well i was) classical studies, why not irish studies which are probably a lot more relevent.

I for one dont care for the language. I droped it for my LC and havnt tought twice about it.
I do however love the culture and mythology and have a great sence of irishness because of it.

Let people make up ther own minds if they want to learn it. There will always be people who will ( a friend of mine recently after finishing college went on an evening course to learn it because she liked it) but dont force it on people. That just gets their backs up and turns them against it. Its human nature and is a sure way to drive the language out.
I love learning and finding out how things work, it doesnt have to be relevent to what i might choose to do as a carear, but dont force me!
If you must force it on people then the current methods of teaching need a complete rethink. I believe that is currently happening at the moment in primary schools.

Languages die and are born, its the way of the world. They do not define a people and a nation.
They can provide a nice reference point though.

Bottle_of_Smoke

You need a D in ordinary Irish to get into most colleges, therefore making it optional may run the risk of people realising they need it only too late.

I for one won't have trouble getting this grade but as a lot of people have trouble learning it and it really will never be used for anything except an Irish teacher,(bit ironic that) I think it should be changed in the colleges and made optional for the cultural ones.

Lyconix

Good point... evidently, a D in Irish should no longer be required to get into college. Funny how you'd be turned away from many colleges if you got an A in both French and German but an F in Irish because you weren't interested in it...

Yeats County

Yes, Irish should be compulsory in Irish schools, it's our official language after all.
I'm doing the Leaving cert. this year and I enjoy doing Irish (except Peig Sayers).

Bottle_of_Smoke

Yes, Irish should be compulsory in Irish schools, it's our official language after all.

It's our officaial language, hmm bit strange we should have to learn it then.
Just about sums up how backward this country still is seen as I'm sure close to 100% of people wouldn't utter a word of Gaelige in usual circumstances

Yeats County

That, I cannot even begin to answer.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ok maybe the backward thing was goin a bit too far but how many people do you know who have everyday conversations on Irish?

P.S. Please don't give me a story about someones grandmother in north Donegal

Yeats County

No-one.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Well thats my point, without a genuine interest most people are gonna forget whatever Irish they learned during school after at most a few years.

Is it worth forcing everyone through the course then?

Yeats County

OK, it's a monority language but it must be kept alive, some people do speak it. It's a part of our heritage and our national identity.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What would you say to making it compulsory till the end of primary school then?

Yeats County

I'm not sure, a lot of people would ditch Irish in Secondary school because it would be "1 subject less" to learn, that would end Irish completely.
I'm afraid that compulsary Irish until Leaving Cert. is the only way to keep the language alive.

Johnny_the_fox

I wish irish was compulsary up here in the North, just like the other subjects (English, R.E and Science).

cos

It's a part of our heritage and our national identity

aswell!!

Calman

Irish people aren't identified by a language.
In my opinion Irish people are good- whether they can speak Irish or not doesn't matter. You can see that they're good by the Irish language as in "Dia is Muire duit"- "God and Mary be with you" but if we suddenly couldn't speak Irish I believe we'd still be a good nation.

Lyconix

Originally posted by Yeats County
OK, it's a monority language but it must be kept alive, some people do speak it. It's a part of our heritage and our national identity.

It isn't much of our "national identity" if its forced upon people is it? The only thing stopping me from ditching Irish completely for the Leaving Cert is that you have to pass it to get into a lot of colleges...