Oh no!!!! not another racism thread

Dedalus05

Macmorris,

There are some figures here. The page has lots of info. Though its a bit crowded.

Nobody in this thread has yet denied that there is a massive influx of foreigners into Ireland, its just that some of us don't see the influx as particularly problematic. What exactly is the problem with accepting immigrants?

With regard to the letter in today's IT, well it sounds like hogwash to me, and probably scaremongering.

Also, immigration IS a political issue. I refer to the recent statements and actions of our minister for justice. Also, we recently had a referendum where we chose to deny citizenship to children, of non-Irish parentage, born in this country.

Dedalus

Blub2k4

Macmorris wrote:

Liberals in this country seem to be so deluded by political-correctness that they're in a state of denial about the scale of the immigration problem. This country is being swamped with immigrants. I read that we now have the highest rate of immigration in the world, having just overtaken Canada. And yet we must be the only country in Europe where immigration isn't a political issue.

I class myself as a liberal, I am not deluded, my problem is that I dont have a problem with people making a better life for themselves and point blank refuse to accept that variety does not make Ireland a more culturally rich island.
What's politically correct about sharing opportunity, is that not the basis of capitalism?
As for political issues, wont someone look foolish telling people how they'll steal their jobs and their wimmin?
But in any case it has been made a political issue recently with the inherently racist referendum that the Irish voted upon and passed.

Macmorris

Dedalus05 wrote:

Nobody in this thread has yet denied that there is a massive influx of foreigners into Ireland

Amp has questioned the rate of immigration:

"I wouldn't mind seeing some statistics backing up your claims that we've so many immigrants coming here."

What exactly is the problem with accepting immigrants?

If the current rate of immigration continues for much longer, we could become a minority in our own country. It has been predicted that by the year 2050, the indigenous Irish people could become an ethnic minority, while the Chinese, along with other ethnic groups, would constitute the majority of the island's population.

So far, multiculturalism has been sold to us on the basis that we would remain the dominant majority ethnic group and that the immigrants would make up a small harmless ethnic-minority who only wanted to 'contribute' to the rest of society. While that might be true for another decade or two, in the long-term we will be the people who will become the ethnic-minority and we'll have to learn to accept living in a foreign (i.e. not indigenous Irish) country.

With regard to the letter in today's IT, well it sounds like hogwash to me, and probably scaremongering.

That seems to be the standard reaction to any politically uncomfortable predictions made regarding immigration. I don't know much about statistics or demographics so I can't express an opinion on the accuracy of the prediction.

But what if it is accurate? If it is, wouldn't you agree that that might be a bit of a threat to our way of life?

Also, immigration IS a political issue. I refer to the recent statements and actions of our minister for justice. Also, we recently had a referendum where we chose to deny citizenship to children, of non-Irish parentage, born in this country.

In fairness, it isn't a political issue in this country, not like it is in England or France or Holland or almost any country in Europe. Nearly every European country has at least least one mainstream political party that takes a firm line on immigration. And I'm not talking about fringe 'far-right' parties like the BNP. I'm talking about the more respectable parties, like the Conservative party in England.

Although I can think of plenty of pro-immigration politicians in this country, I can't think of a single serving TD who doesn't tow the PC line on immigration and multiculturalism. And don't forget, Michael McDowell, because of his role as minister for justice, has to be tough on illegal immigration, that's his job. I've yet to hear what his views are on multiculturalism and whether or not he favours restrictions on legal immigration. I wouldn't be too surprised if he supports the liberal, enlightened side of the argument.

We seem to be the only country where our politicians are so spineless that they're not prepared to stand up to the PC police and address people's genuine and legitimate concerns over immigration.

Wibbs

Dedalus05 wrote:

Nobody in this thread has yet denied that there is a massive influx of foreigners into Ireland, its just that some of us don't see the influx as particularly problematic. What exactly is the problem with accepting immigrants?

My problem is that multiculturism doesn't work. As I've said before people tend to ghettoise themselves mentally and physically, leading to the problems we see in other countries where this great social experiment has largely failed.

With regard to the letter in today's IT, well it sounds like hogwash to me, and probably scaremongering.

Just because it doesn't agree with a point of view, does'nt always make it scaremongering. It may be correct.

Blub2k4 wrote:

But in any case it has been made a political issue recently with the inherently racist referendum that the Irish voted upon and passed

Well that's democracy for you. The majority wanted it, racist or not(I say not).

Karl Hungus

amp wrote:

There is racism in this country. But it may not be as bad as other countries. And maybe that's because the minority of over-zealous liberals are shouting louder than anyone else? Racism is caused by ignorance and fear. If you decrease ignorance then you decrease racism? In my opinion it does.

Indeed, I'd tend to agree with you there, but the problem is that the over-zealous liberals are only shouting at one half of the equation. Not only that, but said liberals also elevate non-nationals to infallibility, and that anyone who would dare say that anyone else is ignorant is shouted down as racist. How then do we decrease ignorance in (For example) muslim communities? We're not even allowed to consider them ingorant. There's some amazing double standards at play.

Blub2k4

Wibbs wrote:

Well that's democracy for you. The majority wanted it, racist or not(I say not).

I dont take issue with the democratic process, what I take issue with was the repackaging that had to be done to sell it as non-racist when by it's very nature it sought to better define the claim to Irish citizenship and effectively hinged on race.

Victor

Macmorris wrote:

I don't know where you get that 10,000 figure from. I think that just relates to the number of people who come here to claim asylum. It doesn't include all immigrants. As this shows, over 80,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe have come here in the last year. And that doesn't include immigrants from other parts of the world. I'd love to know how all the Chinese are getting into the country.

There's a letter in today's Irish Independent where the writer refers to a prediction made at some summer school that Chinese people are set to make up 20% of the Irish population by the year 2025. If that's not evidence of a massive net influx of foreigners, could someone explain what would constitute a massive influx of foreigners?

Macmorris wrote:

If the current rate of immigration continues for much longer, we could become a minority in our own country. It has been predicted that by the year 2050, the indigenous Irish people could become an ethnic minority, while the Chinese, along with other ethnic groups, would constitute the majority of the island's population.

Whatever about your "I saw a letter in the paper where someone rehashed something someone said at some summer school", its an awfully big if.

Then theres an awfully big "so what"?

rsynnott

Victor wrote:

Whatever about your "I saw a letter in the paper where someone rehashed something someone said at some summer school", its an awfully big if.

Then theres an awfully big "so what"?

I'm vaguely reminded of George Bush justifying the invasion of Iraq using some random (and inaccurate) college essays...

TerrorFirmer

The Coloured friends I refered to are Americans, you seem to assume that I'm basing my opinions on race, when I have tried explain that it's to do with the actions of a majority of a group of people that are only recently entering our nation, not bound by their ethnicity or colour.

Furthermore, I refuse to comment any more on this topic, people seem to make too much surface assumptions of a thread without thinking deeper, and of course, at the end of the day its a debating thread in which everyones opinions differ.

Good day to you all, many happy days I wish you arguing futilely with absolutely zero constructive output, bar grudges created based on clashing opinions

rsynnott

MobileInfantry wrote:

The Coloured friends I refered to are Americans

Well, then, they're Colored friends. "Coloured" indeed!

And actions of a majority? What are these heinous actions of the majority of which you speak? Most immigrants, "Coloured" or otherwise, have jobs more or less as soon as they are allowed to.

Macmorris wrote:

An anti-immigrationist might have no personal dislike of foreigners but he still doesn't want hundreds of thousands of them coming to settle here permanently and upsetting the ethnic balance.

What's an ethnic balance? Sounds like something from 30s Germany, tbh.

In 20 years, we'll hopefully be nice and multicultural here; I don't think the racism that's beginning to manifest is an intrinsic failing of our culture; rather it is the knee-jerk reaction to the unknown and feared. The racists will mostly realise that they're being silly and worrying about nothing, soon enough. Of course, some of them are just mindless, incurable bigots, but every society has those.

Wibbs

rsynnott wrote:

In 20 years, we'll hopefully be nice and multicultural here; I don't think the racism that's beginning to manifest is an intrinsic failing of our culture; rather it is the knee-jerk reaction to the unknown and feared. The racists will mostly realise that they're being silly and worrying about nothing, soon enough. Of course, some of them are just mindless, incurable bigots, but every society has those.

I'd like to think you're right, but I simply don't see it happening. Where is an example of a multicultural society that works? All societies have problems, it's just multicultural ones seem to have more. It goes beyond the fact you get a better choice in restaurants.

Immigrants into countries tend to ghettoise themselves. Especially the working classes in such populations. It has already happened here. In Dublin certainly one can easily find the areas in which different nations/groups live. Tensions build up between the different cultures because of the unknown as you put it. An unknown caused by among other things, the indigenous population's mistrust and the immigrant population's lack of integration. It has happened everywhere there is a large influx of people. Why import the problems we see in other countries? If we do have to go down this route of multiculturalism we need to set some ground rules. On both sides. Tougher racism policies along with tougher integration policies may help us avoid some of the problems ahead. Don't see it happening though.

I wholeheartedly agree with Karl Hungus' post BTW

amp

There seems to be a lot of people blankly stating that multiculturism doesn't work. Now if I look at other countries in the world especially the most successful I see the United States and I see Britain. Both multicultural societies. Sure they have problems but for the most part it seems to be working.

The other thing some people in this thread are missing is that without immigrants our current economy simply would not function. Why? There are not enough people to do the work.

We have had waves of immigration in the past for various reasons. Vikings, Normans, even a brief visit by the Romans possibly. Sure there were periods of adjustments but those settlers are now our Irish ancestors.

Multi-culturism isn't a choice, with the world shrinking due to the internet and faster travel, it's a fact. People will always focus on the problems of multi-culturism because that's what makes the news. You rarely see a story on how cool the Mosque looks and how the people are getting along together in Clonskea. The only negative news story I could find on it was that they had a bomb scare once, but any nutter with a phone could be behind that.

The truth is that Ireland is predominatly not a racist society. We welcome people coming here to work because it makes us feel that we're a strong country for once, that the dark days of mass unemployment are behind us. There will always be those that grumble about the amount of people coming here because those people despise change. Personally I like change, change has transformed Ireland from a backward primarily agricultural country into a country with more influence in the world than we should have given our small size.

This country used to have 8 million in it. We now have around 4, I think we can fit some more in

Wibbs

Valid points there amp and I agree. I'm just maikg the point that we should do everything possible on both sides to make multiculturism work.

Zombrex

Macmorris wrote:

If the current rate of immigration continues for much longer, we could become a minority in our own country. It has been predicted that by the year 2050, the indigenous Irish people could become an ethnic minority, while the Chinese, along with other ethnic groups, would constitute the majority of the island's population.

THat is complete nonsense Macmorris, as has been pointed out to you a number of times before in other threats. You have presented no evidence what so ever that immigration rates will continue at the same level for the next 45 years, or that they will increase. It is like someone saying "Wow on the 31st of August there were 0 children in St. Michaels primary school, then on the 1st September there were 500 children, therefore the next day there will be 1000 children and soon we will have a million children in the school". That type of logic is deeply flawed because it ignores why there were no children on the 31st and why there were 500 on 1st, ie it ignores the reasons and circumstance for children being in the school. Like wise you completely ignore the reasons and circumstances of immigrantion and asylum applications.

It is completely nonsensical and going against basic statistics, to look at one figure and then assume that it is an on going trend. If you looked at the increase of the rate of immigration from 1990 and then 2000 you (if you follower your illogical logic) could come up with the idea that by 2005 there would be over a million immigrants entering the country each year. Is there? No, of course not, because that isn't the way it works.

It is very hard to listen seriously to your point of view when you are basing your arguments on such deeply illogical ideas

Macmorris

Wicknight wrote:

THat is complete nonsense Macmorris, as has been pointed out to you a number of times before in other threats. You have presented no evidence what so ever that immigration rates will continue at the same level for the next 45 years, or that they will increase.

It wasn't me who calculated the prediction so I can't really defend it, but I accept that I was wrong to imply that it was dependent on the current rate of immigration continuing indefinitely into the future. I don't know who made the calculation or what data they relied upon. All I know is that someone somewhere worked out that Irish people would be an ethnic minority by the year 2050. The fact that this prediction was then repeated by a highly reputable source (the president of Dublin City University) suggests that there is strong possiblity that there is some substance to the prediction. Likewise with that claim made at that summer school about the Chinese making up 20% of the population in the year 2025. The fact that the 'Anti-racist' quangos haven't come out yet and condemned the claim as 'racist scare-mongering', is further evidence. Maybe they can just rely on their allies in the media to keep quite about it and hope that it will go away.

From what I know about demographics, I think that prediction has a lot to do with the difference in birth-rates between the indigenous population and the immigrant populations. The birth-rate of the natives will fall over the next few decades while the birth-rate of the immigrants will be higher. You can see it happening already. You just have to compare all the children the black African immigrants are having with the number of children our people are having. This is a trend that is happening throughout Europe. I don't think there is a single European country where the birth-rate of the indigenous people is reaching replacement levels. When you compare the birth-rate of the non-European immigrants, particularly the muslims, you can see how, even if immigration was stopped, the numbers of non-Europeans will increase relative to the rest of the population. For example, I read that the majority of Holland's primary school population will be muslim by the year 2020.

So the prediction made about Ireland's future ethnic makeup is consistent with similar predictions made for other white western countries. There's a book called 'Death of the West' which claims that Western civilization is on the brink of extinction because the native white christians of Europe and America are not having enough children while the foreign immigrants are outbreeding them and so are set to become the dominant ethnic groups. If you do a search for the book on google, you'll find that 'minority by 2050' predictions apply to America and England as well as to Ireland.

As I've said in other threads, the important question isn't really whether or not the 'minority by 2050' claim is entirely accurate. Once people accept that there is a possibility that it is true, the important question is whether or not it would be a good thing if it did happen and whether or not we should do anything to prevent it.

amp

Macmorris wrote:

As I've said in other threads, the important question isn't really whether or not the 'minority by 2050' claim is entirely accurate. Once people accept that there is a possibility that it is true, the important question is whether or not it would be a good thing if it did happen and whether or not we should do anything to prevent it.

Yes, let us get to the heart of the matter. Would it be a good thing to have people of different nationalities, races, creeds and colours coming here? What are the downsides? What are the upsides?

rsynnott

amp wrote:

Yes, let us get to the heart of the matter. Would it be a good thing to have people of different nationalities, races, creeds and colours coming here? What are the downsides? What are the upsides?

Upsides; we become more multicultural and gain a larger workforce to fuel the economy. Life is made uncomfortable for bigoted idiots.

Downsides; the criminally stupid get unhappy because there are people FROM A DIFFERENT CULTURE, imagine! They clutter up radio talk shows, whining.

Blub2k4

Upsides: They'll fill all the jobs the natives are too uppity to do in a burgeoning economy, they'll marry and integrate and make Ireland a more interesting place to live.

Downsides: They'll take our jobs and our women.



It's a viewpoint thing is my point, I think that the same "argument" can be made for either side it is down to your outlook, do you resist change or are you happy with change? Most people resist change it is in their nature, when people actually get a neighbour from another race and realise they have good kids/bad kids and "normal peoples" issues just like they do and that they dont sacrifice babies as a matter of course then they can get on with it and let others get on with it.

Macmorris

amp wrote:

Yes, let us get to the heart of the matter. Would it be a good thing to have people of different nationalities, races, creeds and colours coming here?

That's not the question I asked. The question I asked is whether or not it would be a good thing if Irish people were to become a minority in their own country.

What are the downsides?

Erosion of our national identity (i.e. our sense of being a people, not just a country), more crime, more racism, greater threat from terrorists (I don't think I need to give an example), more political-correctness (e.g. in mult-ethnic parts of England people are not able to fly the English flag on St. George's Day because it might offend the minorities), less individual freedom (e.g. the ban on inciting religious hatred in Britain), higher house prices as the demand for houses increases, the destruction of our inner cities as the non-whites usually tend to stick to themselves and form their own ghettoes which are usually no-go areas for whites, extra strain on our public services (e.g. the 25 million euros of our taxes that we spend teaching foreign immigrant children in their own language), demoralisation of our police force over the predictable accusations of racism, an increase in long-term unemployment as our less-educated people can't afford to compete with the cheap labour offered by the immigrants.

What are the upsides?

Cheap labour.

Karl Hungus

Macmorris wrote:

That's not the question I asked. The question I asked is whether or not it would be a good thing if Irish people were to become a minority in their own country.

No, I don't see how any people becoming an ethnic minority could ever be a good thing.

As suggested, it seems that Africans would be in the majority, and as hard to face as it might be, we really should entertain the notion of another Robert Mugabi being elected and going on a nice little racial cleansing spree. Yeah, that'll certainly make life in Ireland 'interesting' now, won't it?

Honestly, I like the fact that Ireland has been moving away from the more right-wing control of the church, and faults aside, it's a pretty damned good country to live in. I honestly think we're not too far away from making Gay marriage legal, so we're a pretty damn liberal country altogether. But I honestly wonder how anyone would feel about coming out if Ireland was under the control of some Zanu PF regime? Or how about if you were living in a predominantly Muslim area? Does being hung sound interesting?

rsynnott wrote:

Upsides; we become more multicultural and gain a larger workforce to fuel the economy. Life is made uncomfortable for bigoted idiots.

First of all, if Ireland becomes a predomantly African country as suggested, that isn't multicultural, that's monocultural.

Secondly, the world is full of bigoted idiots. This politically correct notion that only white people are ignorant, backwards bigots just doesn't wash anymore. 3 guesses why Zimbabwe is in such a state. Anyone?

And could someone please provide facts about needing a larger workforce to fuel the economy. I hear a lot of people waffling about that, and frankly, I think it's utterly dubious. Maybe someone could explain how the economy is the way it is today when we've pretty much had the same indigenous population over the past couple of decades? And honestly, how can anyone seriously talk about fueling the economy when we're all well aware that a lot of jobs here in Ireland are being outsourced!

Hmm... Lets see here:
Largescale outsourcing of jobs to India and China + large immigration to "Fuel the economy" + lack of facts about why we need more "Fuel" when we've done perfectly good already =

Honestly, I just don't get it.

Anyway, back to the idea of the Irish becoming a minority in our own country. Africans have Africa, but if Ireland becomes a predominantly African country, what do the Irish have? Might be something people here would want to consider.


BIG Disclaimer - I realise that some of my points here seem quite alarmist (Namely the Zanu PF-esque regime running Ireland) but this point is merely a what if, as a response to another what if, and not something I genuinely believe will happen. I think the Irish as a minority seems a little alarmist in itself. I also believe that Multiculturalism can work (just look at the Chinese in Ireland), just not in the politically correct la-la-land way it's going now. Please take this into consideration before replying.

PS: While I say some of my points are genuinely alarmist and theoretical, points about immigration/economy stand in seriousness.

rsynnott

Karl Hungus wrote:

Honestly, I like the fact that Ireland has been moving away from the more right-wing control of the church, and faults aside, it's a pretty damned good country to live in. I honestly think we're not too far away from making Gay marriage legal, so we're a pretty damn liberal country altogether. But I honestly wonder how anyone would feel about coming out if Ireland was under the control of some Zanu PF regime? Or how about if you were living in a predominantly Muslim area? Does being hung sound interesting?



.

Don't be silly. Has the UK become a fundamentalist Islamic regime? No. 1.5million Muslems and they're a hell of a lot more liberal than us. Has France? No. Has, in fact, any country which recieved large-scale immigration of Islamic people in the last century? No. Same argument for Africans (and saying that Africans are monocultural is the silliest thing I've heard in a while. Africa is a ****ing continent.

Karl Hungus

rsynnott wrote:

Don't be silly. Has the UK become a fundamentalist Islamic regime? No. 1.5million Muslems and they're a hell of a lot more liberal than us. Has France? No. Has, in fact, any country which recieved large-scale immigration of Islamic people in the last century? No.

I guess someone didn't bother to read my disclaimer before posting.
Please read it.

An alarmist notion in reply to an alarmist notion. Simple as.

rsynnott wrote:

Same argument for Africans (and saying that Africans are monocultural is the silliest thing I've heard in a while. Africa is a ****ing continent.

I simple didn't want to say "Blacks" so I substituted Africans. It's hard to tip-toe around all this politically correct lingo, I can hardly say Negro, now can I?

But quite right, Africa is a continent. So why don't you go around to all the people of black African descent in America, and tell them how wrong and silly they are for calling themselves African-American. :rolleyes:

amp

Well then AW, just because they are black doesn't mean they have one culture. Besides we don't need to import a lot of black people to turn this country into a corrupt state, we can do that all by ourselves. And as a country that's currently pre-dominately white, we already have many different cultures within it. Hell, even boards hosts a wide variety of different cultures.

Culture is not based on race, it's based on what people like. I am positive there are black people out there that are far more interested in oillin pipes and traditional irish music than I am.

African americans call themselves that because not all of them know what part of Africa they're ancestors where dragged from. I think you're confusing being anti-pc with being a moron.

Also, you're assuming that people take their culture with them. Sure some do. Muslim religion keeps muslims wearing veils and not eating certain things. However they may also take the Luas to see a Tom Murphy play in the Abbey.

I dunno, maybe I am a bleeding heart liberal. Or maybe because when I was a kid one of my best mates was half english and half Trinidadian. To me he was as Irish as I am, because he was born here and had the same accent I had. The truth is Ireland is a colllection of cultures. Just because there's more people coming here than leaving doesn't mean that's going to change.

And as an example of the benefits of foreign people coming here is that have done more to make food interesting then we could ever have done. Remember that the next time you order a chinese.

catholicireland

That's not the question I asked. The question I asked is whether or not it would be a good thing if Irish people were to become a minority in their own country.

Who on earth would suggest such a thing? That would be an immigration system out of control. After all there is 6 billion people in this world and we have a population of only about 4 million.

madfistbt

I lived in London for 17 years in an area that was literally went from 30%-70% black 10-20% Asian and 60%-10% white . And I can tell you that it is not good for you socially or mentally. If you were to even glance in the direction of a black man in this area then you were asking for trouble and I’m a big guy,

I think Irish people are naive when it comes to this, If you think they will act like they do now generally keeping to themselves, when there’s a big community of them then your in for a nasty surprise, the above would not happen now but give it 10-15 years unless its controlled you will be seeing a lot of ethnic gangs and intimidation directed at white people and you’ll start to see black areas forming like there is in London i.e. Brixton, Peckham, Lewisham.

But saying this I do not blame black people for this I would If I was in there position, after all there getting intimidated here all the time and its just pay back

I blame multiculturism on me being such a ****ed up bastard today. I had a few black friends but you can only have a certain level of friendship with a black person unless they act like a white person or you act like a black person. You can call me racist for saying this which ye Ill admit I am to a certain extent only because I’m proud of being Irish and don’t want to see it ending up unrecognisable from the place I love.

I can wait to hear all the replys saying Im a racist bring it on

Karl Hungus

amp wrote:

Well then AW, just because they are black doesn't mean they have one culture. Besides we don't need to import a lot of black people to turn this country into a corrupt state, we can do that all by ourselves. And as a country that's currently pre-dominately white, we already have many different cultures within it. Hell, even boards hosts a wide variety of different cultures.

Culture is not based on race, it's based on what people like. I am positive there are black people out there that are far more interested in oillin pipes and traditional irish music than I am.

Indeed, I agree with your 100% there. I dislike this notion that "Diversity = people who look different" as it doesn't account for diversity of opinion, or simply what people like, as you put it.

Although, you seem to miss the point entirely, because quite honestly you're preaching to the choir there, I know for a fact that culture is not based on race. I've lived with a black South African guy for 5 years, and he was certainly one of the best people I've ever had to share accomodation with. Compared to many Africans that I've met, he simply could not be more different.

Anyway, the point is that I'm not saying that I believe "All black people = one culture" but rather, seeing as the general notion of what "Multiculturalism" is in popular opinion and media today is that culture is defined by race (see also the 'Diversity = people who look different' point) and therefor on the flipside to that is my tounge-in-cheek remark of "Monoculturalism."

Now, I'm sure we could discuss what exactly constitutes culture and diversity, but the popular defintion of Diversity just doesn't seem to include two lads from Louth who have wildly different outlooks, and neither does it seem to include the notion that a Vietnamese lad and a Finnish lad aren't diverse. You get me?

Oh! You might want to have a good long talk with Rsynnot, because when you asked about the pros/cons of people of different nationalities, races, creeds and colours coming here, he said "Upsides; we become more multicultural" so he obviously thinks that culture is based on those attributes. Can't be having that now, can we?

Anyway, I really hope that does clear it all up about what I specifically meant by certain remarks, and why it shouldn't be confused for the spin you seem to have read into my post. I haven't bothered replying to the rest of your post, I think that calling me a moron aside, it's all been covered by above, but in relation to your point about other people's effect on our food, I would direct you back to my disclaimer. Specifically this part:

I also believe that Multiculturalism can work (just look at the Chinese in Ireland)

But thanks, for... er, making pretty much the exact same point that I had already made, and using it against me.
Nope, I don't get it...



Ok, sarcasm aside, is it really that difficult to read a post before you reply to it?

Macmorris

amp wrote:

The truth is Ireland is a colllection of cultures. Just because there's more people coming here than leaving doesn't mean that's going to change.

You're avoiding the question I asked. This is not about what whether we should have people of different cultures in this country. The question I asked has to do with the scale of immigration and what effect it will have on the future ethnic makeup of the island's population.

Because we have some many foreigners coming to live in this country, and because their birthrates are so high compared to our people, someone has worked out that in the next fifty years there is a possibility that the indigenous Irish will become a minority in Ireland. Accepting that there is some plausibility to the prediction, the question I asked is whether or not that would be a good thing if it happened.

madfistbt

Karl Hungus wrote:

Indeed, I agree with your 100% there. I dislike this notion that "Diversity = people who look different" as it doesn't account for diversity of opinion, or simply what people like, as you put it.

Although, you seem to miss the point entirely, because quite honestly you're preaching to the choir there, I know for a fact that culture is not based on race. I've lived with a black South African guy for 5 years, and he was certainly one of the best people I've ever had to share accomodation with. Compared to many Africans that I've met, he simply could not be more different.

Anyway, the point is that I'm not saying that I believe "All black people = one culture" but rather, seeing as the general notion of what "Multiculturalism" is in popular opinion and media today is that culture is defined by race (see also the 'Diversity = people who look different' point) and therefor on the flipside to that is my tounge-in-cheek remark of "Monoculturalism."

Now, I'm sure we could discuss what exactly constitutes culture and diversity, but the popular defintion of Diversity just doesn't seem to include two lads from Louth who have wildly different outlooks, and neither does it seem to include the notion that a Vietnamese lad and a Finnish lad aren't diverse. You get me?

Oh! You might want to have a good long talk with Rsynnot, because when you asked about the pros/cons of people of different nationalities, races, creeds and colours coming here, he said "Upsides; we become more multicultural" so he obviously thinks that culture is based on those attributes. Can't be having that now, can we?

Anyway, I really hope that does clear it all up about what I specifically meant by certain remarks, and why it shouldn't be confused for the spin you seem to have read into my post. I haven't bothered replying to the rest of your post, I think that calling me a moron aside, it's all been covered by above, but in relation to your point about other people's effect on our food, I would direct you back to my disclaimer. Specifically this part:



But thanks, for... er, making pretty much the exact same point that I had already made, and using it against me.
Nope, I don't get it...



Ok, sarcasm aside, is it really that difficult to read a post before you reply to it?

Id hate to have an argument with you face to face how do you get to be so political?, youd reck my head! And I cant wait for your sarcastic have I got news for you style reply

Macmorris

madfistbt wrote:

the above would not happen now but give it 10-15 years unless its controlled you will be seeing a lot of ethnic gangs and intimidation directed at white people and you’ll start to see black areas forming like there is in London i.e. Brixton, Peckham, Lewisham.

Exactly, that's what the liberals don't seem to understand. Immigration and multiculturalism are long-term problems. We might be able to cope in the short-term but after a few decades as the number of non-whites rise that's when we'll begin to see the more serious problems.

The only reason why multicultural countries like Britain and America are still successful is because the white Europeans still constitute the majority of the population in those countries. In another fifty years that won't be the case as the whites will be outnumbered.

madfistbt

Macmorris wrote:

because their birthrates are so high compared to our people, .

what are the birth rates for irish people do you know im just curious. I think the Italians have the lowest in Europe