Oh no!!!! not another racism thread

meditraitor · 22-07-2005 1:11pm #1

Oh No not another racism thread!!!

Have not thought this through to much, so I will just throw it out there

Ok, Heres the thing, racism seems to be a hot subject for all the leftist liberals in our society, dont get me wrong i believe in social democracy and its benefits(sorry for rambling).

But how is racism effecting people of different races in our great country??

Are these immigrants being beaten down with racism, does it really have an effect on there lives, are they not much better of in Ireland than they were in their home countries(reason for leaving)??

Are we being misled by extreme liberals who think that we should all change our prospectives in life to facilitate peoples of other ethnic and racial backrounds because they decide to come here looking for a better life, which is being supplied due to our good nature(fact).

Racism can be defined as treating a person or group differently because of their racial designation, but are we not in fact forced to treat people different because of this difference,

Wandering again , sorry

What is the effect of racism on the immigrants here in Ireland. Is it hard for these people??

And if so why dont they move on?

rsynnott · 23-07-2005 5:39pm

meditraitor wrote:

Are these immigrants being beaten down with racism, does it really have an effect on there lives, are they not much better of in Ireland than they were in their home countries(reason for leaving)??

How much would it cost Irish people to behave like decent human beings and drop the bigotry? Nothing. Yes, immigrants are in many cases better off here than where they came from. That doesn't make it acceptable to be a bigot.

I'm reminded vaguely of that lovely American general who said effectively "Yes, we torture (he didn't say THAT, of course, he used whatever the current euphamism for sleep deprivation, beatings and mock executions is) people, but we don't do it as much as Sadaam did."

We shouldn't try to be a good place to live in a relative sense, we should strive to be a good place to live in an ABSOLUTE sense.

meditraitor · 25-07-2005 9:11am

rsynnott wrote:

How much would it cost Irish people to behave like decent human beings and drop the bigotry? Nothing. Yes, immigrants are in many cases better off here than where they came from. That doesn't make it acceptable to be a bigot.

I'm reminded vaguely of that lovely American general who said effectively "Yes, we torture (he didn't say THAT, of course, he used whatever the current euphamism for sleep deprivation, beatings and mock executions is) people, but we don't do it as much as Sadaam did."

We shouldn't try to be a good place to live in a relative sense, we should strive to be a good place to live in an ABSOLUTE sense.

Are you always this vague... dont reply if your not going to answer my question (reason for posting)

Medi

Karl Hungus · 25-07-2005 7:58pm

rsynnott wrote:

How much would it cost Irish people to behave like decent human beings and drop the bigotry? Nothing. Yes, immigrants are in many cases better off here than where they came from. That doesn't make it acceptable to be a bigot.

It's this kind of attitiude that's a problem! Yes, lets all stick our fingers in our ears, hum loudly, blame all the Irish for all injustices, and everything will work out well in the end when we have out multicultural utopia! :rolleyes:

Your little idea relies on the notion that any problems or racial tensions arise solely on account of the Irish and their "Bigotry" and that no foreign national could ever be a bigot themselves. Well gosh, I suppose since we're not living in la-la-land, then that throws your little Political Correct Copy&Paste blurb out the window.

I'm sorry, but political correctness is just going insane right now, and it's a bigger problem than the so-called Racism that's hot topic with a lot of media right now, so the sooner we can cop the **** on and stop treating immigrants/refugees/whatever as infallable beings and realise that they're all just the same as us: a big bunch of ****ing jerks, then the sooner the idea of multiculturalism will stop being a frenzied notion of a fevered madman. But as it is, any genuine problems that arise are sweeped under the carpet as soon as the word "Racism" is mentioned, whether or not the claim of racism is true or not, it doesn't matter, it's headlines!

Point in case, www.indymedia.ie which seems to be nothing more than a mouthpiece for Residents Against Racism. Honestly, not a week goes by without some frontpage news about the horrible racism of the racist government and their nasty illeagal racist mass deportations, which anyone with half a brain knows is pure sensationalist rubbish week in week out. I'm far more concerned about what they don't tell you, which is why exactly these people are being deported in the first place? Dare anyone suggest that RAR is actively trying to keep criminals, fruads and scammers in the country?

Anyway, in response to Meditraitor, racism in this country is blown entirely out of proportion, it's something that's being exploited by sensationalist media. Honestly, some official makes a dumbassed comment about 'Kebabs' and everyone is waving their fists and snarling about how this is the most racist country in the word! Jesus... It's pathetic. But, I do believe that the blindly one-sided political correctness is going to create huge problems and tensions, much in the same way that bogus asylum seekers are causing huge problems for genuine ones, because there is going to be a backlash.

amp · 26-07-2005 10:32am

meditraitor wrote:

Oh No not another racism thread!!!

I'm thinking of getting the forums name changed to Humanities - I'm not racist but...

Have not thought this through to much, so I will just throw it out there

Ok, Heres the thing, racism seems to be a hot subject for all the leftist liberals in our society, dont get me wrong i believe in social democracy and its benefits(sorry for rambling).

But how is racism effecting people of different races in our great country??

Probably annoying them? I dunno much about being the subject of be the victim of a racist attack but then things have changed for the Irish in the last 10 years.

Are these immigrants being beaten down with racism, does it really have an effect on there lives, are they not much better of in Ireland than they were in their home countries(reason for leaving)??

Ah sure we might as well beat them up as in their home country they'd have been tortured anyway? Treating people like shi[/b]t is treating people like shi[/b]t no matter what the contex.

Are we being misled by extreme liberals who think that we should all change our prospectives in life to facilitate peoples of other ethnic and racial backrounds because they decide to come here looking for a better life, which is being supplied due to our good nature(fact).

This country is an island which means that the Irish people did not spontaneously arrive here next to a pot of gold under a rainbow. Where did we come from? Well mainland Europe and Britain. And we kept coming to this island for thousands of years. Every single person in this country has an ancestor who came to this island looking for a better life.

Should we play bad hosts despite our past record of being guests in many countries?

Racism can be defined as treating a person or group differently because of their racial designation, but are we not in fact forced to treat people different because of this difference,

We are however forced by law to treat all people equally.

Wandering again , sorry

What is the effect of racism on the immigrants here in Ireland. Is it hard for these people??

And if so why dont they move on?

So what you're really saying is is racism a good thing because it makes the darkies go back to Africa?

Blaming society problems on asylum seekers and economic migrants is a retarded philosophy based on a myth that simply isn't true. That isn't left wing liberalism talking that just plain honest fact. It's an easier, lasier, way to explain a complex problem. We have more people in this country with lower unemployment that at any stage in our history. Lots and lots of people come to this country seeking work and why not? There's plenty of work.

meditraitor · 26-07-2005 10:40am

amp wrote:

I'm thinking of getting the forums name changed to Humanities - I'm not racist but...

Probably annoying them? I dunno much about being the subject of be the victim of a racist attack but then things have changed for the Irish in the last 10 years.

Ah sure we might as well beat them up as in their home country they'd have been tortured anyway? Treating people like shi[/b]t is treating people like shi[/b]t no matter what the contex.

This country is an island which means that the Irish people did not spontaneously arrive here next to a pot of gold under a rainbow. Where did we come from? Well mainland Europe and Britain. And we kept coming to this island for thousands of years. Every single person in this country has an ancestor who came to this island looking for a better life.

Should we play bad hosts despite our past record of being guests in many countries?

We are however forced by law to treat all people equally.

So what you're really saying is is racism a good thing because it makes the darkies go back to Africa?

Blaming society problems on asylum seekers and economic migrants is a retarded philosophy based on a myth that simply isn't true. That isn't left wing liberalism talking that just plain honest fact. It's an easier, lasier, way to explain a complex problem. We have more people in this country with lower unemployment that at any stage in our history. Lots and lots of people come to this country seeking work and why not? There's plenty of work.

After reading your reply I had another look at my Post just to check, but I still cannot see the racist tone your reply infers, your reply was not well thought out (maybe you had a few to many last night), when I read it I thought " is this person reading the right thread". The implication of racism toward me in your reply is downright low and despicable and I hope you have the good sense to edit your post when you wake up.

Medi

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 8:37am

Hey,

Meditraitor the offense you have taken to Amp's post seems to me as invideous as your first post.

You posted this topic to garner support for your views, and it would be no suprise to me if those views are bigoted. Why else would you post this topic? Is it really to discuss racism in Ireland? Or are you making an issue out of the fact that in your view Racism in Ireland is a non-issue?

Look at the question:

>>> How is racism effecting people of different races in our great country??

Racism effects people in this country in varied ways, both institutional and social. How about the young nigerian man who was last year asked to step of a train in Heuston Station by police and forced to identify himself. A process that made him miss his train. This happened in front of his father, who was visiting from London, who having spent many years in London saw the racism for what is was.

Or the young family looking for a house, but being denied by the fifth landlord in a row, purely because of the color of their skin.

Did you ever step into a chipper after a night out, and listen to the yops bull****, bully, and harrass you or other customers for no reason? Now imagine stepping into that chipper if you were black?

So what if they are still better off here, does that make any of the above acceptable? And these examples are minor. They are just incidents I have come across.

So what if we are all, black or white, gob****es when it comes down to it, does that make racial discrimination acceptable?

I apologise for the tone of this post if it is confrontational, but this last point made me angry -

The comment, "they decide to come here looking for a better life, which is being supplied due to our good nature(fact)", comes straight from a delusion. The 'better life' being supplied is not down to our good nature, which has the implication that we could withdraw the favour. When people step off a plane and set foot in this country they have rights, whether we are in a good mood or not.

Dedalus05

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 9:33am

Dedalus05 wrote:

Hey,

Meditraitor the offense you have taken to Amp's post seems to me as invideous as your first post.

You posted this topic to garner support for your views, and it would be no suprise to me if those views are bigoted. Why else would you post this topic? Is it really to discuss racism in Ireland? Or are you making an issue out of the fact that in your view Racism in Ireland is a non-issue?

Look at the question:

>>> How is racism effecting people of different races in our great country??

Racism effects people in this country in varied ways, both institutional and social. How about the young nigerian man who was last year asked to step of a train in Heuston Station by police and forced to identify himself. A process that made him miss his train. This happened in front of his father, who was visiting from London, who having spent many years in London saw the racism for what is was.

Or the young family looking for a house, but being denied by the fifth landlord in a row, purely because of the color of their skin.

Did you ever step into a chipper after a night out, and listen to the yops bull****, bully, and harrass you or other customers for no reason? Now imagine stepping into that chipper if you were black?

So what if they are still better off here, does that make any of the above acceptable? And these examples are minor. They are just incidents I have come across.

So what if we are all, black or white, gob****es when it comes down to it, does that make racial discrimination acceptable?

I apologise for the tone of this post if it is confrontational, but this last point made me angry -

The comment, "they decide to come here looking for a better life, which is being supplied due to our good nature(fact)", comes straight from a delusion. The 'better life' being supplied is not down to our good nature, which has the implication that we could withdraw the favour. When people step off a plane and set foot in this country they have rights, whether we are in a good mood or not.

Dedalus05

At least you answered the question! (first one)

As for your opinion that the post was to "garner support for my veiws".
What views did I express?,how did you come to that conclusion?

You are infering that if I ask a question with relation to racism, that makes me a bigot???

and it would be no suprise to me if those views are bigoted. Why else would you post this topic?

I find it disturbing that you have this view, upbringing and education make a person and it looks like one of these has let you down, because your determination that I have bigoted views from reading my post shows a real lack of cop-on and reading skills ("invidious"--__ keep away from the thesarus, only serves to undermine an argument when words are used that dont fit)

For the record, I am neither racist nor a bigot. I dont feel I have to explain myself to you, I realise from your reply you must only be about 16.

N.B The question I raised was a valid one, I wanted to know how racism affected people in this country, both immigrants and naturalised people of different ethnic or raciial backrounds,If your (whoever decides to reply, if any) reply does not address the question dont bother!!

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 9:54am

Meditraitor ,

I am not the first person to infer from your post that you may be a bigot. Look carefully, I never said you were one; I am simply making an educated guess. I also stand by my use of words, btw.

However, I'd still like to know why you asked these questions? Is it to troll extreme liberals like myself?

Dedalus

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 10:04am

Dedalus05 wrote:

Meditraitor ,

I am not the first person to infer from your post that you may be a bigot. Look carefully, I never said you were one; I am simply making an educated guess. I also stand by my use of words, btw.

However, I'd still like to know why you asked these questions? Is it to troll extreme liberals like myself?

Dedalus

By Troll , do you mean not agreeing with you and your unbendable views that some things should not even be broached in civil conversation, a simple question like- how does racism effect(see above for details)???

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

-

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot

Now who is the bigot??

\Please stay on topic, I will not have a dick measuring contest with a teenager so full of angst that their brain is not being put into gear,

And just a quick note, "Extreme liberal" (what you refer to yourself as)- wtf are you on about? Very interested in the answer to this question.

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 10:15am

Meditraitor,

I've drawn on my, admittedly, limited experience to answer part of your question. And I'll expand on any aspect of it you like, if you want me to clarify my points of view (which are malable and fluid let me assure you).

In the meantime, can I ask again: why did you ask the question? Was it debate for debates sake? What is your view on the questions you raised?

Yes, I do classify myself as an extreme liberal in many ways (I lifted the phrase from your first post). Though certain aspects of my politics could also be considered conservative too.

Dedalus

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 10:22am

Dedalus05 wrote:

Meditraitor,

I've drawn on my, admittedly, limited experience to answer part of your question. And I'll expand on any aspect of it you like, if you want me to clarify my points of view (which are malable and fluid let me assure you).

In the meantime, can I ask again: why did you ask the question? Was it debate for debates sake? What is your view on the questions you raised?

Yes, I do classify myself as an extreme liberal in many ways. Though certain aspects of my politics could also be considered conservative too.

Dedalus

No offense dude, but you are close to going on my ignore list

"Extreme Liberal - conservative" --this is what you think you are,
Doesnt sound Malleable to me, sounds like your a nut!!

Mark

P.S Feel free to PM me,

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 10:28am

Hey,

I don't know how to PM people, and I'm to lazy to look it up right now.

Please either answer the question I have asked three times now, or put me on your ignore list.

'Civil conversation' my ass.

D.

xtreem · 27-07-2005 10:38am

As an Irish guy who's seen racism against Irish overseas here's how I felt.

First time I went into a bar with the sign
NO DOGS
NO BLACKS
NO IRISH

Firstly your on edge.. am I safe here? Is everyone here anti-Irish? Should I speak lower to hide my accent.
Are those lads with tight hair just normal or are they Combat 18??

Then you dont mingle with the locals...stick to your own..we stick together, safety in numbers.

Dirty Irish, Drunk Irish, Irish layabouts. Here to milk the system...taking our welfare..they get everything.... welfare gives them cars...taking our jobs.
(Sounding familiar ??? please feel free to replace IRISH with whatever nationality you like)

There's a whole lot of racist Irish now because they've never been on the receiving end. They've never hung out with the Mexicans/Jamaicans/Chineese etc. who'd invite them to their homes, share their food/drink...hook you up with a job.. our common link , we were outsiders, working hard tough jobs on minimum pay.

And why dont they leave, same reason we didn't. Not enough money, shame of going home a failure. Partner didn't want to go etc.etc. Lifes worse back home.

Short memories here in Ireland....but that's only a tiny minority...I HOPE!!

TerrorFirmer · 27-07-2005 10:48am

I work in community services, and it is my honest opinion that the coloured foreign nationals here by a large majority are close enough in description to free loaders.

True, the Irish were in a similar position, but that was years and years ago - when the Irish first emigrated en masse, did they go for a comfy life to the US and receive welfare, rent allowance, etc? I think not.

The system here is far too generous, everyday I deal with them, most of them for example have the latest phones, eg 6230i etc, and they ALL have the same excuse - it was a present from brother, cousin, etc.

Not I'm not saying that I'm a racist, as I think the same as the Large majority of travellers (Notice I'm not saying ALL, just the majority). Now, they can be the nicest of people, very polite, or they can be difficult people who rant and rave and demand everything their way. Much the same mix of people we get in any social/ethnic classes.

Regardless of their manners, appearance, or whatever, the large majority of them are still taking the state for a ride, draining amounts of money that are already far too generous for the means intended...

....just my 2 cents, in a non racist way.

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 10:53am

Dedalus05 wrote:

Hey,

I don't know how to PM people, and I'm to lazy to look it up right now.

Please either answer the question I have asked three times now, or put me on your ignore list.

'Civil conversation' my ass.

D.

LOL, never noticed the question hidden among all the extreme liberal ranting, apologies,

Why did I ask the question??
1. I have travelled a lot and seen racism and discrimination in many forms, so understand me when I say it disgusts me. In the past 5/8 years Ireland has had a major influx of economic and social immigrants, bringing with them their beliefs, which in my opinion are the only discernable differance between peoples (ethnicity/race are none starters)
I believe that as a nation we have handled this influx of new idea's and religions very well, and that racism is not a major issue in our country, and I would go so far as to say that it is being exajerated by loony lefts like yourself.

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 10:59am

xtreem wrote:

Short memories here in Ireland....but that's only a tiny minority...I HOPE!!

This is my point, as a proportion of the population/ the people with racist/bigoted tendancies is very small, I belive Ireland has handled itself with pride in our new and changing world, and that the naysayers only have one thing going for them,
that is the loudness of there argument- that Ireland is a racist country!!! which it is most definitely not

I say it again, tell me how racism is effecting these immigrants??????

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 11:34am

Meditraitor,

Thanks. I'll leave it to others to answer your central question. I am in work, and can't really give it the proper attention. Quickly though - when I was out on a smoke break Monday morning a colleague of mine put forward the view that most of the native people of Ireland were unhappy with the number of immigrants being allowed entry into this country. He said these people where the silent majority, and that mark his words, but it would all go pear shaped eventually (in the form or pogroms etc). I didn't pursue the issue, as I've heard of this old tactic before; Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech for example.

Anyway, in the meantime, I'm pround to say I agree completely with your last point. And I also apologise for my earlier inferences, as I am inclined to believe the opposite now, that in fact you are not a bigot.

However, I still take issue with the 'better life' you said was being 'supplied due to our good nature (fact)' comment. People have Rights in this country regardless of race. At the moment native Ireland's good nature, if there is such a thing, has nothing to do with it. 'Rights' as I understand them are not bestowed upon people by others, but (a quick google) 'a recognition of the inherent dignity of all human beings, their freedoms' etc.

Dedalus

meditraitor · 27-07-2005 12:04pm

Dedalus05 wrote:

However, I still take issue with the 'better life' you said was being 'supplied due to our good nature (fact)' comment. People have Rights in this country regardless of race. At the moment native Ireland's good nature, if there is such a thing, has nothing to do with it. 'Rights' as I understand them are not bestowed upon people by others, but (a quick google) 'a recognition of the inherent dignity of all human beings, their freedoms' etc.

Dedalus

This came out wrong(cant edit post for some reason, ??amp??), what I attempted here was to expand on the fact that we are a good natured people and that I feel insulted every time some gobshit liberal(not personal by the way) moans about our "inherent racism".

This is a great country and we try our best, the VAST majority wouldnt say boo to a goose, we love the craic and are more than tolerable of other races and ethnicities, we embrace them, why do you think we travel so much(nowadays, its not because we need work!!)? its not to find people to hate, but to find different people to learn from and get drunk with

If I am wrong please tell me about this racist nation and its effects on these people??

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 12:22pm

Like I said, I fully agree with you, but for an example of racists in this nation please see mobileinfantry's post above.

D.

Megatron · 27-07-2005 12:32pm

xtreem wrote:

Dirty Irish, Drunk Irish, Irish layabouts. Here to milk the system...taking our welfare..they get everything.... welfare gives them cars...taking our jobs.
(Sounding familiar ??? please feel free to replace IRISH with whatever nationality you like)

While i was in finland, replace Nationality with Forigener, extremly xenopobic people , well not all , but the majority do seem that way.

xtreem wrote:

There's a whole lot of racist Irish now because they've never been on the receiving end. They've never hung out with the Mexicans/Jamaicans/Chineese etc. who'd invite them to their homes, share their food/drink...hook you up with a job.. our common link , we were outsiders, working hard tough jobs on minimum pay.

Been there, and i have to say that it does change your views on not only emigration , but on alot of other things as well.

xtreem wrote:

And why dont they leave, same reason we didn't. Not enough money, shame of going home a failure. Partner didn't want to go etc.etc. Lifes worse back home.

Nahh i didn't want to come back becuase i don't like the way of living in dublin, i've been doing my best to get out , and i will be shortly. My family are the only reason i'm still in ireland.

xtreem wrote:

Short memories here in Ireland....but that's only a tiny minority...I HOPE!!

While the general word on the street is no where near as millitant as it is in finland, it still is bad.
Saying that the problem is being blown up out of context is just stupid.
best to deal with it quickly.

if we got a few ex-pat's back in and by a few i mean alot (

) the attitude would change very fast.

It's not the colour on your skin , but the hate in your heart that i don't like .( not directed at anyone , i would of said it my usualy way but it sounds awful soppy in contect with the rest of my post)

jimbling · 27-07-2005 12:42pm

okay... im just going to join in here as I have some personal experience with all this.

For a few years now, Ireland has had this racist issue going on.... And I agree with a lot of what meditraitor is pointing out...

And MobileInfantry's post is an excellent one.... I know a few people who deal with it constantly.

My point is the "is ireland a racist country?" question... how can you answer that... what are you asking.. is there any racists? is there a majority of racists? do people actually discriminate due to race? is the government acting racist?? How do you define a racist country??

Anyway, my 2cents is what I experienced about 3 years ago. I was going out with a chinese girl for about 8 months or so. I just could not believe the crap people said to her.... i couldn't get to grips with the fact that there were such racist people in this country.

By the way, this girl was born in Ireland. Her parents moved here about 35 years ago and have been running a restaurant(s) since. She had an unbelievable cork accent

Well back to the point. There was many a night, after a club in town, I would be walking here home.. or to a cab place.... and we would be heckled.. it was unreal... if I wasn't a passive person I would have been fighting every second night out with her.

I realise that in this case, you are dealing with drunk guys after a night on the piss, but this changes nothing... how can someone believe that doing this is right... or not wrong... i just don't understand it.

But back to the question... is ireland racist... yes it is. A lot of what is going on in the media is rubbish, and exaggerated... I dont believe the government to be racist.. but there is a problem they have to deal with.

But a lot of the people, I am not so sure about....

jimbling · 27-07-2005 12:52pm

Dedalus05 wrote:

Like I said, I fully agree with you, but for an example of racists in this nation please see mobileinfantry's post above.

are you saying here that mobileinfantry's post was racist... because I don't think that it was meant that way... and I don't think that it was either...

he was pointing out that a lot of them are freeloaders... it has nothing to do with their colour... its just people taking advantage of a situation that allows them to. there is a huge number of other races doing the same (including irish).

Since he works in community services... these are the people he will meet... the guys who are doing well for themselves are having no problems etc... .

its just a point... its people like you assuming that every comment is a racist one... it infuriates me... you were calling meditraitor a racist and a bigot earlier.. then changed your mind...
stop jumping to these conclusions....

You cant seem to talk about this topic without taking the exact view of the liberals... otherwise you are a racist.... and this is half the problem at the moment.

maybe I took you up wrong on this point... apologies if i did....

Wibbs · 27-07-2005 2:16pm

jimbling wrote:

And MobileInfantry's post is an excellent one.... I know a few people who deal with it constantly.

I know some people in Mobileinfantry's position and they all echo the same experience. As you pointed out though, these freeloaders are going to show up more in his line of work, regardless of colour or creed.

Anyway, my 2cents is what I experienced about 3 years ago. I was going out with a chinese girl for about 8 months or so. I just could not believe the crap people said to her.... i couldn't get to grips with the fact that there were such racist people in this country.

By the way, this girl was born in Ireland. Her parents moved here about 35 years ago and have been running a restaurant(s) since. She had an unbelievable cork accent

Again I've had this experience too. The crap you hear from people does amaze me sometimes (That said jimbling it would be her Cork roots that would disturb me way more than her ethnic origin. I went out with a girl from Limerick once. Now that's a mixed race relationship...

).

As has been pointed out before in threads like this, any reference to "race" quickly polarises into loony left/right tit for tat responses with few hard points to back either position. At least we can say that MobileInfantry has a handle on at least one aspect of the debate. I've no reason to doubt him as I know others in his position and if they're anything to go by, he's being quite generous. In the end I tend to favour the more liberal position as it strays away from the "send them back home" solution.

For myself, I consider myself not to be rascist*. I would however consider myself to be a culturalist. That is to say I would have more in common with a black Londoner than I would for example, a white South African. It's not the colour so much as the culture that a person comes from and how that culture can fit in to the society thay may find themselves in. Fit in they must(without over-abandoning their heritage), because if they don't and ghettoise themselves, phsically and mentally, we and they are storing up problems for the future of the society at large.

I also agree with what Karl hungus had to say. political correctness has risen to silly proportions in this country, or at least in some sections of it. This is dangerous, as many outside that mindset can become more radical in their views, as they feel their concerns are beyond debate. Debate that is seriously warranted, given some of the problems inherent in multiculturalism. Many people laughed at Enoch Powell for his "blood on the streets" rant(rightly), but the old fool was proved partly right when the feelings of disenfranchised black youth spilled over into the Brixton and Toxteth riots. If no worthwhile debate is allowed history is destined to repeat itself among the second generation of non white Irish.

*I think IMHO everybody regardless of colour is guilty of "rascism" to some degree or other. It's certainly no worse or better among the Irish compared to the rest of the world. Fear or suspision of the outsider is common among even those of the same race. It's simple tribalism. We still have a 100,000 yr old tribal brain that is still trying to come to terms with what has become a global society.

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 2:52pm

Jimbling,

Am I saying that mobileinfantry post was racist? Yes I am. Was it meant that way? No, probably not. Consider what he said: Most 'coloured foreign nationalist' can be accurately described as free-loaders. Most travellers can also be described as such. Most of them have the latest generation mobile phones. Most of them have the same excuses for owning such phones etc.

Please tell me what part of the above is not racist?

Mobileinfantry works on the frontlines of social services where he will see many people seeking assistance from the state. However he equates the worst of these people you see with all, sorry, only most of the immigrants arriving into this country. Most of which do not claim assistance from the state btw.

And forgive a correction here, but he wasn't pointing out that there are a lot of free-loaders. He was saying that most 'coloured foreign nationalists' are free-loaders.

Sorry for being politically incorrect, but mobileinfantry was talking s**t. But there you are - deal with it.

I also called Meditraitor up on what I thought was inappropriate. I am not going to apologise for that. He has since clarified his point of view, and I respect that.

I would not try to stifle debate, but **** if I am going to let nonsense pass for valid opinion. Especially when it uses the tag-line 'just my non-racist 2 cents'.

Dedalus

jimbling · 27-07-2005 3:26pm

lol.. your a laugh a minute.... this is exactly my point... you know exactly what was meant by mobileinventory's post, you knew he wasn't been racist but basing it on what he came across... and you still called him a racist.

Why didn't you just make the point that... he is dealing with the the troubled side and that there are more people that aren't milking the system... but no.. you dont debate it... you say.. RACIST... and hold your hands up to your ears and go lalalalalalala

people like you look for reasons to call others racist.

and here....

Dedalus05 wrote:

Most travellers can also be described as such. Most of them have the latest generation mobile phones. Most of them have the same excuses for owning such phones etc.

so what is it... what your trying to say here is that this is the case... but your not allowed say it.. is that right??? this is great stuff.

Dedalus05 wrote:

Mobileinfantry works on the frontlines of social services where he will see many people seeking assistance from the state. However he equates the worst of these people you see with all, sorry, only most of the immigrants arriving into this country. Most of which do not claim assistance from the state btw.

my point above.. why didn't you say this to him rather than me... why not debate it, instead of just calling him a racist.

Dedalus05 wrote:

And forgive a correction here, but he wasn't pointing out that there are a lot of free-loaders. He was saying that most 'coloured foreign nationalists' are free-loaders.

yes but this isn't a debate about free-loaders is it... i am sure that if you asked him, he would tell you he came up against lots of free loaders that are not 'coloured foreign nationalists'. His point was the 'coloured foreign nationalists' that he comes into contact with are mostly free-loaders.

Dedalus05 wrote:

Sorry for being politically incorrect, but mobileinfantry was talking s**t. But there you are - deal with it.

its you that needs to deal with it... not me....

Dedalus05 wrote:

I would not try to stifle debate, but **** if I am going to let nonsense pass for valid opinion. Especially when it uses the tag-line 'just my non-racist 2 cents'.

with your standards of equality... i would say that everyone on earth.. with the exception of extreme liberals is a racist.. and this is not the case... things are not black and white... there are grey areas in between... u must understand this....

and you are stiflying a debate when you are not willing to let others make a point of view different to your own, without calling them a racist....

have you decided that I am a racist yet??

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 3:37pm

OK Jimbling, you ask fair questions. To clarify where I stand, as far as I am concerned mobileinfantry made a racist post - intentional or not the points of view expressed in it are racist. But I 'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you here. Others can read the thread and decide for themselves whether or not I was correct in my call.

While researching a bit for this thread I came upon this site. Seems fairly comprehensive, with lots of good links:

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=260

Dedalus

jimbling · 27-07-2005 3:47pm

Dedalus05 wrote:

OK Jimbling, you ask fair questions. To clarify where I stand, as far as I am concerned mobileinfantry made a racist post - intentional or not the points of view expressed in it are racist.
Dedalus

just answer one question from me Dedalus... I am curious on where you stand on this.

If mobileinfantry re-worded his post...

lets say that instead of 'most' or 'large majority' he said 'some' and 'small minority'

would this change your opinion???
would it still be racist??????

Dedalus05 · 27-07-2005 4:09pm

jimbling wrote:

just answer one question from me Dedalus... I am curious on where you stand on this.

If mobileinfantry re-worded his post...

lets say that instead of 'most' or 'large majority' he said 'some' and 'small minority'

would this change your opinion???
would it still be racist??????

I did not willfully misinterpret the post in question. I read it as it was posted. If he re-worded his post to 'some', I might have asked for clarification or context; had he said 'small minority' I would not have considered it racist.

Mobileinfantry, are you there? Do you have any comments on the controversy surrounding your post?

Dedalus

Megatron · 27-07-2005 4:30pm

Dedalus05 wrote:

Mobileinfantry, are you there? Do you have any comments on the controversy surrounding your post?

Dedalus

well you seem to be about the only person here ranting on about the issue.

I read the original post, i found it misleading, but nothing more, there are some points that are wrong, but are not racist, well not in the context where the facts have been misqued.

If everyone else can see this and you continue on your "racist" witch hunt, who is the deluded one ?

jimbling · 27-07-2005 4:33pm

Dedalus05 wrote:

I did not willfully misinterpret the post in question. I read it as it was posted. If he re-worded his post to 'some', I might have asked for clarification or context; had he said 'small minority' I would not have considered it racist.

Mobileinfantry, are you there? Do you have any comments on the controversy surrounding your post?

Dedalus

and this is what I dislike about peoples views.... if someone puts in the PC wording, then everything is okay...

so someone should lie / distort there own view in order to fit in with what certain people think they should say.

the only way I would interpret his post as racist is if he did use the word ALL and wasnt willing to listen to specific cases...

the fact that you say you wouldn't think it racist if he said small minority instead of large majority proves my point.

lets say we have two people A and B

A makes the statement:
"and it is my honest opinion that a large majority of coloured foreign nationals in this country are close in description to free loaders"

B makes the statement:
"and it is my honest opinion that a small minority of coloured foreign nationals in this country are close in description to free loaders"

Are you saying that A is a racist and B is not, just because his contains the majority.

realistically if this is your view then you should sit back and think about it...if I was to say that in my opinion most irish people are drunks... am I now a racist...NO.... I may be wrong.. but I am not a racist...
if every time I meet an irish guy I am going to assume that he is a drunk and try and avoid him.... or not hire him etc... then that is racist...
and there is a lot of that around... sometimes it is unconsciously (due to lack of knowledge).. other times it is purposefully done... the latter is by far the more worrying...

a racist is someone who discriminates a person due to race....

someone who assumes that ALL irish people are drunks..... and thats that.

The reason I am arguing this with you is because I believe the way things are going will make matters worse... this over abundance of PC etc..... instead of just enlightening people.. you just say.. 'you cant say that' - you can think it, but you can't say it.....

that is worse.. now you have people everywhere doing just that...

Oh no!!!! not another racism thread

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