Oh no!!!! not another racism thread

Dedalus05

Megatron,

I don't mean to rant. But with respect, I don't think I quoted the post out of context as I think your implying. I am just trying to establish what the term racist means to everyone here having a debate about it. The moderator of Humanities (Amp) has set a rough definition here . and I certainly think the post in question falls within that definition.

That said if Amp thinks I am not adding to the debate, I'll respectfully bow out of it. I don't want to take the debate off topic by 'witch-hunting', but I am new to the boards, and should explain that I will call it as I see it.

However, I guess I am beginning to realise that interpreting posters by a single post is a bad idea (see my earlier discussion with Meditraitor). I'll try to be more careful in future.

Jimbling,

I agree, most people have wrong ideas about one group of people or another, and that doesn't make them racist. I think that is an important definition.

For me the other subtlety your trying to communicate is too difficult for me to grasp. 'Most people' is a generalization. 'Small minority' is not. Therefore for me the latter as the closest to this forums definition of what it means to be racist, is the working one for me for the time being.

I can only go by what the post said and assume it is what the poster meant until he can clarify it for me. The poster clearly stipulated he was talking about the large majority of immigrants and travellers. It is not generous of him to exclude a minority. What I mean is: his stipulation that some of them are ok does not excuse his bull**** earlier generalization that the large majority are free-loaders.

Anyway, I am done talking about MobileInfantry's post until someone comes to my defense and reassures me I am not talking ****e, or the poster himself explains why I misunderstood.

My name is Dedalus. Thanks for listening

Dedalus05

This is great. I love these forums. But after a little research I think I may be out of my depth

I did a quick search on MobileInfantry's past posts to see what kind of guy he is, and I think the s**t storm he caused here in the Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual forum proves the guy can well argue controversial issues for himself.

Wibbs

Dedalus05 wrote:

To clarify where I stand, as far as I am concerned mobileinfantry made a racist post - intentional or not the points of view expressed in it are racist. But I 'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you here. Others can read the thread and decide for themselves whether or not I was correct in my call.

Well I did and find his take on the situation troubling on a few levels. I also have the same response when friends of mine who work in a similar field to MobileInfantry express the same thing. I Don't think they're particularly racist and I don't think MobileInfantry's post was racist. Generalist maybe, but any debate contains generalisations.

You quote the charter in your defense. All I will say to that is while he is lacking in "solid irrefutable facts", his job gives him a unique position to comment. With respect to Amp, solid irrefutable facts can be a little thin on the ground when it comes to issues like this, but I get where he's coming from(hopefully:)). Uninformed rants on both sides help nothing, but winnowing out what passes for the truth is difficult. EG if you look at that page you linked to, Dedalus, you will see the official stats show a massive fall off in asylum seekers after 2002/03. Was this because Ireland was no longer a "soft" target for "freeloaders" or was it something else entirely, like a feeling that Ireland is a racist nation? Solid fact, two interpretations.

rsynnott

Dedalus05 wrote:

This is great. I love these forums. But after a little research I think I may be out of my depth

I did a quick search on MobileInfantry's past posts to see what kind of guy he is, and I think the s**t storm he caused here in the Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual forum proves the guy can well argue controversial issues for himself.

Oh, I knew I wasn't keen on him for some reason; he's that sad waste of organs. Thanks for the reminder.

Catsmokinpot

i find alot of people in ireland to be prejudice against other nationalities and races, being english i was on the recieving end of this even though my family is irish i moved over from england when i was 11 and the hastle i got just for being english was unreal!

now i know the whole story about the plantations and all that **** but i didnt do any of that none of my family did any of that yet i was called limey, george, charles, english prick, and every other possible thing under the sun, i didnt find the experience too enjoyable at all.

now imagine you were being descriminated, away from home, outnumbered, having names thrown at you for no reason other than the fact that ur different, i was in a class of 30 in secondary school and at least half of those people were making fun of me on a regular basis purely for the fact that i was english,

now to be honest i would hate to be black and in ireland, it would be much worse than being english in ireland from what ive seen the irish arent too inviting to the blacks

none of you can say that a racism problem doesn't exist in ireland if you do then ur blind

as far as i can see the ireland is the land of a thousand welcomes to those they know are going home......

Edit: and as for those that call some of these immigrants free loaders its not thier fault they are taking advantage of a system that gives them the best welfare around, you would do the same if you were in their situation don't say you wouldn't cause your lying, and in any case what are the irish only a bunch of immigrants themselves

Wibbs

catsmokingpot wrote:

none of you can say that a racism problem doesn't exist in ireland if you do then ur blind

True, but I think it's a problem in all societies to a lesser or greater extent. My concern is how do we minimise it, both for immigrants and the indigenous population.

as far as i can see the ireland is the land of a thousand welcomes to those they know are going home....

Well put.

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, I knew I wasn't keen on him for some reason; he's that sad waste of organs. Thanks for the reminder.

Well to be fair to him he does argue his points well and certainly divides opinion. I admire people who have an opinion and aren't afraid to go against the status quo in an intelligent way. The more the merrier. Even if the position he takes I don't agree with(his posts on the LBG forum mentioned here being a good example) calling him sad waste of organs is hardly helpful, as even when I don't agree with his viewpoint, I don't recall him resorting to obvious insults.

TerrorFirmer

My opinions on the Gay/Lesbian forum hardly have any bearing on my post regarding racism in Ireland. If you are that small minded, keep out of the argument - This is a racism thread, I'm happy to address issues raised, but keep previous and totally unrelated threads out of it.

Anyway, regarding my post. Yes, I admit that I do not come into contact with every single foreign national that comes into this country, and I am just as sure that there are many of them that are extremely hard working and honest people.

Yes, it is also valid that in my line of work, I'm only going to see one side of the paper.

However, it is still my belief that a large majority of the colours are milking the system simply because they know they can. Don't bother labelling me a racist - I have a few coloured friends, colour and regional origin matters very little to me.

What I have said is not racist - misleading you may argue, or even false, whatever you interpet it as. But racist no, I made no reference to having a personal train of thought on someone based on colour or origin. 5 years ago, there was no black people here in the waiting rooms. Now, there are more black then white people. And don't bother to say I'm picking exclusively on coloured people - fact is, we get very little non-coloured foreign nationals in here really....

Oh, I knew I wasn't keen on him for some reason; he's that sad waste of organs. Thanks for the reminder.

Very valuable input there, I am delighted for you.

rsynnott

MobileInfantry wrote:

My opinions on the Gay/Lesbian forum hardly have any bearing on my post regarding racism in Ireland. If you are that small minded, keep out of the argument - This is a racism thread, I'm happy to address issues raised, but keep previous and totally unrelated threads out of it.

Bigots are bigots.

TerrorFirmer

rsynnott wrote:

Bigots are bigots.

If that gives you the right to call me a bigot based on your personal opinion, does it also give me the right to call you a narrow minded fool based on my opinion?

Are you contributing something here? Or are you just hanging about, not bothering to do anything but hand out insults? Which, if that is the case, makes you not much better then your own opinion of me

/And btw, post reported Rsynnott - kindly keep out of it if you don't plan contributing anything constructive in future.

zenith

This forum is for debate, not personal slagging matches.
This means that remarks directed at individuals are off-topic.
Attack the argument, not the arguer.
This is your warning.

Thank you,
zenith

eyebrows

jimbling wrote:

and this is what I dislike about peoples views....
....
....
that is worse.. now you have people everywhere doing just that...

Totally agree. I hate people who do not listen to your point but just here "black" or "immigrant" and automatically think you're a racist.

I mean I once told a guy that I prefer white women over black women(looks wise) and he called me a racist because of it.

Dedalus05 wrote:

For me the other subtlety your trying to communicate is too difficult for me to grasp. 'Most people' is a generalization. 'Small minority' is not. Therefore for me the latter as the closest to this forums definition of what it means to be racist, is the working one for me for the time being

“Most people” is not a generalization.

If 3 out of 4 people in a room were (lets just say) gay, you could say most people in that room are gay(fact). However, if you pick one from that room at random and call him gay(might or might not be true), that would be a generalization

Catsmokinpot

Wibbs wrote:

True, but I think it's a problem in all societies to a lesser or greater extent. My concern is how do we minimise it, both for immigrants and the indigenous population.

very true i think it is more of a problem with the fact that their has never been an influx of people in to the country, its always been the irish that have infected everywhere else not the otherway round

Wibbs

Catsmokinpot wrote:

its always been the irish that have infected everywhere else not the otherway round

Infected?? Now them's fightin' words ya Anglo Irish racist ya.

Seriously though I would say it's multiculturism in it's current form that has failed in most countries. Debate on this, warts and all is required. New ground rules need to be set, on both sides, indigenous and immigrant, if we can ever hope to solve the problem and have a truly inclusive Irish society.

Catsmokinpot

Wibbs wrote:

Infected?? Now them's fightin' words ya Anglo Irish racist ya.

Wibbs wrote:

Seriously though I would say it's multiculturism in it's current form that has failed in most countries. Debate on this, warts and all is required. New ground rules need to be set, on both sides, indigenous and immigrant, if we can ever hope to solve the problem and have a truly inclusive Irish society.

people really need to realise that people are dickheads, and you'll find these dickheads everywhere.... on every street in every town in every country in the world. doesn't matter what colour you are, you get dickheads of all shapes and sizes. you can't pin it down to one particular thing about a person or group of people, colour of ur skin is just a product of your surroundings, not of your character. its as stupid as the aboriginals believing that a photograph could steal your soul.... and don't get me started on those mormons, it all stems from ignorance and as far as i can see there needs to be some sort of massive education plan. not for kids but for parents too, that sort of thing gets passed down from generation to generation aswell

amp

meditraitor wrote:

After reading your reply I had another look at my Post just to check, but I still cannot see the racist tone your reply infers, your reply was not well thought out (maybe you had a few to many last night), when I read it I thought " is this person reading the right thread". The implication of racism toward me in your reply is downright low and despicable and I hope you have the good sense to edit your post when you wake up.

Medi

I should really edit it as I got the bypass stuff wrong when saying the word "shit" but I think people still get the idea. As far as everything else I said I stand by it. You are one of those people that simply doesn't like foriegners coming here and staying.

Now if you want to focus on that and not on the arguments I made then that's fine.

Macmorris

amp wrote:

You are one of those people that simply doesn't like foriegners coming here and staying.

And what's wrong with that? Are you saying that that's enough to make someone a racist, because if you are, it means that a large section of the Irish population could probably be considered racist.

I think there is a difference between being racist and being opposed to immigration because you don't think it will be good for the country. A racist is someone who doesn't like foreigners, particularly foreigners who happen to be of a different race. An anti-immigrationist might have no personal dislike of foreigners but he still doesn't want hundreds of thousands of them coming to settle here permanently and upsetting the ethnic balance.

Maybe liberals are incapable of understanding how anyone would fail to see the benefits of multiculturalism and so, for them, only a brain-dead racist could possibly hold a less than enlightened view of immigration.

Blub2k4

Macmorris wrote:

I think there is a difference between being racist and being opposed to immigration because you don't think it will be good for the country. A racist is someone who doesn't like foreigners, particularly foreigners who happen to be of a different race. An anti-immigrationist might have no personal dislike of foreigners but he still doesn't want hundreds of thousands of them coming to settle here permanently and upsetting the ethnic balance.

It would be so easy to Godwyn this thread at this moment, but really read back over what you have written.

So the BNP are racist and anti-immigrationist, or both? Is there a difference, I mean you say it is not racist yet immediately adopt a pretty tired almost worn out racist phrase

but he still doesn't want hundreds of thousands of them coming to settle here permanently and upsetting the ethnic balance.

If that phrase is not racist then please enlighten us as to what exactly it is, to me it sounds like a call for racial purity..a la Nietzsche, or Herzl or dare I say it the blackshirts.

meditraitor

amp wrote:

I should really edit it as I got the bypass stuff wrong when saying the word "shit" but I think people still get the idea. As far as everything else I said I stand by it. You are one of those people that simply doesn't like foriegners coming here and staying.

Now if you want to focus on that and not on the arguments I made then that's fine.

Please read the thread before making unfounded remarks like that.

Regards
Mark

Dedalus05

MobileInfantry,

I brought up the LGB thread, as I admired the way you handled yourself in it. Despite personal attacks you kept your posts on-topic and reasoned. Though I would add I thought your reasoning warped and, frankly, despite your protestations, homophopic.

Consider your basic thrust in both threads:

I am not homophobic, but homosexuality is unnatural, and couldn't/shouldn't ever be considered normal.

I am not racist, but the vast majority of 'colours' in this country are freeloaders.

Is my understanding of your points correct? If not I apologise. If so, allow me to continue....

The collective noun you use: 'colours'. It is deeply offensive. You have singled out a group of people by skin colour, and called them free loaders. That is not simply benign opinion. To my mind it is something much more sinister.


eyebrows,

I am don't want to get into a debate on what the word 'generalization' means. Suffice to say I disagree with your interpretation.

Dedalus

amp

meditraitor wrote:

Please read the thread before making unfounded remarks like that.

Regards
Mark

The foundation of my remarks is your posts. Please read my posts and address the points accordingly.

amp

MobileInfantry wrote:

However, it is still my belief that a large majority of the colours are milking the system simply because they know they can. Don't bother labelling me a racist - I have a few coloured friends, colour and regional origin matters very little to me.

I presume those freeloading "coloured" friends of yours enjoy being called "coloured"?

You have racist beliefs because you are making generalisations based on skin colour. And somone who has racist beliefs is called a racist. I should ban you but given that I am posting on this thread already, that would not be impartial.

Blub2k4

mobileinfantry wrote:

I have a few coloured friends, colour and regional origin matters very little to me.

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

It may be satire but it makes a very valid point in a humorous manner.

TerrorFirmer

amp wrote:

I presume those freeloading "coloured" friends of yours enjoy being called "coloured"?

You have racist beliefs because you are making generalisations based on skin colour. And somone who has racist beliefs is called a racist. I should ban you but given that I am posting on this thread already, that would not be impartial.

Amp, if I knew the actual country they are from, I'd make reference to them that way. As it is, I refer to them as Coloured people. Now, I'd be a racist if we lived in a Multi-cultural society that had existed for many years. Its hardly like this in Ireland. I refer to the MAJORITY of coloured people. In the last few years, they have flooded in, and are actively using our welfare system.

Can you provide statistics that prove the majority of coloured people in Ireland are in no way reliant on welfare and hold normal jobs, pay tax and own their own houses or pay their own rent? I don't think so. I still think that makes my comment non racist, as I was simply pointing out a fact.


Maybe give it a bit more thought before you call me a racist? As it is especially, you have given absolutely no reason to put a ban on me for my opinions. So I've already been called a bigot and a racist. Who else thinks from this thread alone that I come across as a "Bigot" and a "Racist"?

Being racist is about having stereotypical ideals about a race or origin. I have many friends who are black, I would consider them no different. What I do consider different however, is people REGARDLESS of race or origin, that milk a system simply because they know they can get it.

If this thread was about a flood of Chinese/British/German/Mongolian refugees which cased a similar situation in our country, I'd have the same views on them. If it was about a flood of people from dublin I'd also have the same opinion.

My opinions are based on the general actions of a majority of a group of PEOPLE, and not based on someones origin or cultural differences, or colour.

I know I'm not racist, if you want to interpet what I'm saying as racist, then fine. At the end of the days, opinions are not always going to be the same, or preconceived notions of racism.

Don't want to get into a father ted style showcase, but I definately do not consider myself a racist.

meditraitor

amp wrote:

The foundation of my remarks is your posts. Please read my posts and address the points accordingly.

OK, Firstly the original post was structured as a question, there was no racist tones meant, I posted it hoping to get some feedback on peoples opinions regarding the manor in which racism is effecting immigrants or people from different ethnic backrounds in this country!
I do not feel that posing such a question is either bigoted or racist.
Not once in all your replies did you address this!!

The comment at the end of the thread is the only thing that I regret about putting in the post

And if so why dont they move on?

but for some reason I have no edit option(maybe you can tell me why)

This was not as you imply, a f off if you dont like it(immigrants), it was more to show that this countries racist problem is blown out of proportion and the fact that we have so many immigrant here and coming into ireland, shows that ireland has a good reputation among immigrants.
Do you think that these people just stick a pin in the map and wallla , lets go to Ireland, NO they come here because they have been told that ireland is full of oportunities for them. We are a welcoming people and the part of my point was that there is a minority of over zealous liberals shouting louder than everyone else about the racist scourge that is sweeping this country<bollox,
I should have put it more elequantly I suppose, but if you read the post it starts off with

Have not thought this through to much, so I will just throw it out there

I was expecting a good debate and some examples to give me an idea of how racism was effecting these people, BUT NO , what did I get

Your a fucking racist in not so many words,

"AMP" I'm thinking of getting the forums name changed to Humanities - I'm not racist but...

Racism is one thing, disgusting and intolerable, but infering someone is Racist is eqaully disgusting and personally I found it poisonous that a person can freely do it without engaging in discussion with the accused(me in this case)

And just to clear things up, I know I am neither a racist nor a bigot.

I will not be made answer to a psuedo spanish- inquisition
your a racist- prove your not--or leave humanities



Now , back to the Original Post

What is the effect of racism on the immigrants here in Ireland. Is it hard for these people??

And when you have contributed something to this thread other than vieled accusations, I will address your questions and points regarding my personal mindset.....

Or PM me

Regards
Mark

amp

meditraitor wrote:

OK, Firstly the original post was structured as a question, there was no racist tones meant, I posted it hoping to get some feedback on peoples opinions regarding the manor in which racism is effecting immigrants or people from different ethnic backrounds in this country!
I do not feel that posing such a question is either bigoted or racist.
Not once in all your replies did you address this!!

I addressed the points in your post. I didn't start accusing you of posting while drunk and being off-topic.

The comment at the end of the thread is the only thing that I regret about putting in the post
but for some reason I have no edit option(maybe you can tell me why)

I can't tell you I'm afraid. The Admins might know.

This was not as you imply, a f off if you dont like it(immigrants), it was more to show that this countries racist problem is blown out of proportion

You haven't provided any proof that it has been blown out of proportion, merely your own opinion.

and the fact that we have so many immigrant here and coming into ireland, shows that ireland has a good reputation among immigrants.

I wouldn't mind seeing some statistics backing up your claims that we've so many immigrants coming here. Off the top of my head there we are now in negative immigration at the rate of about 10,000 coming here a year. How many of those are Irish people returning here for the exact same reasons as other nationality immigrants, I do not know, but I'm betting it's a fairly large percentage.

Do you think that these people just stick a pin in the map and wallla , lets go to Ireland, NO they come here because they have been told that ireland is full of oportunities for them. We are a welcoming people and the part of my point was that there is a minority of over zealous liberals shouting louder than everyone else about the racist scourge that is sweeping this country<bollox,

There is racism in this country. But it may not be as bad as other countries. And maybe that's because the minority of over-zealous liberals are shouting louder than anyone else? Racism is caused by ignorance and fear. If you decrease ignorance then you decrease racism? In my opinion it does.


On the subject of me calling you a racist: I've never called you a racist but merely posted how I interpreted your posts. Maybe I associate the use of the phrase "over-zealous liberal" with posts by racists. Also your post seems similar to revisionist historians that try to say that certain events in history were not as bad as they seemed.

Now , back to the Original Post

\o/

And when you have contributed something to this thread other than vieled accusations, I will address your questions and points regarding my personal mindset.....

Wow, that's just gobsmackingly hypocritical. I have stayed on topic and debated the issue. You have accused me of posting while drunk. I am now going to put my moderator hat back on and say the following which is non-negotiable:

Back on topic

meditraitor

now we are on track, I apologise for the claim of drunkeness on your behalf, but the fact you implied racism had me seeing red, I have never been accused of such a thing and was taken aback. Again I apologise for the comment

amp wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing some statistics backing up your claims that we've so many immigrants coming here. Off the top of my head there we are now in negative immigration at the rate of about 10,000 coming here a year. How many of those are Irish people returning here for the exact same reasons as other nationality immigrants, I do not know, but I'm betting it's a fairly large percentage.




Back on topic

Now

This is not right up to date stats but they are hard to come by, but they are relative to the topic and your query
These figures took me 1 minute(no exageration) to find,



What is not in dispute (chart 9) is the scale of the overall inward migratory flows. In the period 1995-2000, approximately a quarter of a million persons migrated to Ireland, of whom about half were returning Irish (but see the comments above, which would suggest the real figure for Irish, if we include children born to Irish parent(s), must be higher). The aggregate figure for immigrants (including Irish returnees) in this five-year period is an astonishing 7% approximately of the 1996 population (3.6 million). There are no parallels to these figures in other EU countries. This figure of 7% for in-migration in 1995-2000 would be the equivalent of close to 4 million persons in France. Moreover, this situation of substantial net immigration is set to continue for several years to come, although the actual figures will clearly be influenced by international and internal economic developments.

http://migration.ucc.ie/irelandfirstreport.htm#1.2%20%20%20%20%20%20%20NEW%20IMMIGRATION%20FLOWS

Blub2k4

So is it likely that these are people "of colour" :rolleyes: or the swede, canadian, russian, german that I am presently working alongside, I myself returned from Germany also in this period?

meditraitor

Blub2k4 wrote:

So is it likely that these are people "of colour" :rolleyes: or the swede, canadian, russian, german that I am presently working alongside, I myself returned from Germany also in this period?

Racism

any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

swedes,canadian,russians and germans can be racially abused as well, but I get your point. Just look at the romanians, they seem to have come into a bit of flack lately......

Dedalus05

MobileInfanry,

Please do not see my focusing on your post as an attack. I am trying to understand where exactly your comments are coming from.

When Amp asked if your friends liked to be refered to as coloureds, you said: "Amp, if I knew the actual country they are from, I'd make reference to them that way. As it is, I refer to them as Coloured people."
These cannot be real friends, can they? You don't know where they're from?

You also said, "Now, I'd be a racist if we lived in a Multi-cultural society that had existed for many years. Its hardly like this in Ireland."
Why? What difference does it make? You admit your comments would be racist in a multi-cultural society? But as you live in Ireland, your comments are not racist? I don't understand.

Amp asked "Can you provide statistics that prove the majority of coloured people in Ireland are in no way reliant on welfare and hold normal jobs, pay tax and own their own houses or pay their own rent? And you replied, "I don't think so. I still think that makes my comment non racist, as I was simply pointing out a fact".
This does not make sense. Amp asked for data to back up your claims, and you say you don't have any you just pointing out a fact!

Hence, when you say ,"Being racist is about having stereotypical ideals about a race or origin. You are describing your own comments.

If this thread was about a flood of Chinese/British/German/Mongolian refugees which cased a similar situation in our country, I'd have the same views on them.
Which would make you xenophibic to boot.


My opinions are based on the general actions of a majority of a group of PEOPLE, and not based on someones origin or cultural differences, or colour.
No they are not. They are based on your beliefs (which I believe are predjudiced), and your limited experience (limited by your own admission) of immigrants of colour in this country.

I know I'm not racist, if you want to interpet what I'm saying as racist, then fine. At the end of the days, opinions are not always going to be the same, or preconceived notions of racism.
Opinions are not always going to be the same, but a 'racist' is someone with clearly defined characteristics, and you show many of the signs.

Don't want to get into a father ted style showcase, but I definately do not consider myself a racist.
I don't consider myself fallible, but there you are :rolleyes: .

Dedalus

Macmorris

amp wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing some statistics backing up your claims that we've so many immigrants coming here. Off the top of my head there we are now in negative immigration at the rate of about 10,000 coming here a year. How many of those are Irish people returning here for the exact same reasons as other nationality immigrants, I do not know, but I'm betting it's a fairly large percentage.

I don't know where you get that 10,000 figure from. I think that just relates to the number of people who come here to claim asylum. It doesn't include all immigrants. As this shows, over 80,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe have come here in the last year. And that doesn't include immigrants from other parts of the world. I'd love to know how all the Chinese are getting into the country.

There's a letter in today's Irish Independent where the writer refers to a prediction made at some summer school that Chinese people are set to make up 20% of the Irish population by the year 2025. If that's not evidence of a massive net influx of foreigners, could someone explain what would constitute a massive influx of foreigners?

Liberals in this country seem to be so deluded by political-correctness that they're in a state of denial about the scale of the immigration problem. This country is being swamped with immigrants. I read that we now have the highest rate of immigration in the world, having just overtaken Canada. And yet we must be the only country in Europe where immigration isn't a political issue.