And people say religion is good....

rsynnott

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2417031&postcount=17

It's slightly more complicated than just sending "unsubscribe" to ratizinger@vatican.va, but it can certianly be done. I keep meaning to do it; it's on my list of stuff I must do at some point, on about the same level as getting an organ donor card.

But this is one of the better reasons I've seen for doing it; I don't want to be a statistic in favour of a "Catholic Ireland". I think I'll look into it tomorrow.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

CatholicIreland, can I ask where you got the figure in your sig because it sounds wildly inacurrate to me.

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html

rsynnott wrote:

Because the faults of the catholic and jewish faiths affect us very little in Ireland.

Islamic and Jewish faiths I would imagine you meant. Not that it is a fair comparison as Roman Catholicism is a denomination or subset of a religion, while Islam and Judaism are religions themselves, composed of multiple, often conflicting, subdivisions.

But if we discussed religion rather than Roman Catholicism we might enter the murky World of a discussion in humanities rather than some series of hysterical and unsubstantiated rants about how Roman Catholicism has been at the root of all the World’s evil.

rsynnott

The Corinthian wrote:

Islamic and Jewish faiths I would imagine you meant. Not that it is a fair comparison as Roman Catholicism is a denomination or subset of a religion, while Islam and Judaism are religions themselves, composed of multiple, often conflicting, subdivisions.

But if we discussed religion rather than Roman Catholicism we might enter the murky World of a discussion in humanities rather than some series of hysterical and unsubstantiated rants about how Roman Catholicism has been at the root of all the World’s evil.

Yep, mis-print. And no, catholicism is certainly not the root of all the world's evil. It has, however, done considerable evil; that should not be ignored either. (In recent times, Magdalen laundries, willful concealment of paedophile priests, and so on).

Manach

...and some considerable good; various charities, raising awareness of the socially disadvantaged, providing a sense of community spirit.

The Corinthian

rsynnott wrote:

And no, catholicism is certainly not the root of all the world's evil. It has, however, done considerable evil; that should not be ignored either. (In recent times, Magdalen laundries, willful concealment of paedophile priests, and so on).

No one is ignoring the bad that the Roman Catholic Church has done. However, you seem more then happy to ignore any good it may have done either, so you’ve given us no reason to believe that you do not consider it to be at the root of all the World’s evil, given your lack of balance when considering it.

Additionally, you earlier placed a litany of accusations against it, most of which were either unsubstantiated or simply invented. When you add to this your public, off-topic, and almost theatrical, protestations of wishing to leave said denomination, it’s very difficult to actually see your position as anything other than a highly simplistic black and white one.

Not that this thread is actually supposed to have been about the Roman Catholic Church to beginning with, but if some people can’t help but flog a dead horse...

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html

I see that's taken from the 2002 Census. Hardly an accurate place to take religion figures from though tbh I can't see a more accurate way of getting the figures myself, maybe through church attendance figures or something like that?

Through the very nature of the census being carried out on a house by house basis, many parents will enter their children's religion as being Roman Catholic despite the fact those children may well no longer believe in any God, catholic or not.

How many of those counting themselves as Catholic are not actually Catholic at all but just happen to pick and choose the elements of the religion that they like (i.e. the good bits: eternal life, salvation etc.) and call themselves Catholic for an excuse to hate the English? Do they count as proper Catholics? I doubt it.

At a wild guestimation I'd say about ten to twenty percent of this countries population are actually Catholic, with another thirty to forty adhering to *some* of the Catholic beliefs though not by definition of the religion they were baptised into, a Catholic.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

At a wild guestimation I'd say about ten to twenty percent of this countries population are actually Catholic, with another thirty to forty adhering to *some* of the Catholic beliefs though not by definition of the religion they were baptised into, a Catholic.

Way more accurate than an official census... :rolleyes:

Nevyn

Official but flawed and there for pretty inacurate.

Roman Catholic 88.4%, Church of Ireland 3%, other Christian 1.6%, other 1.5%, unspecified 2%, none 3.5% (2002 Census)

Those are not real options or real numbers. Hopefully the are working in better options for the next one and listening to the lobby groups.

Religion can be a good thing. The twisting of the core belifes and the shift from love thy neighbour as yourself ( reguards less of race, creed, or any other differences) to the likes of the cursades was done by twisted people.

Those type of people will any excuse any tool to achieve thier ends,
hopefully we will get to the stage were most people will start thinking for themsleves and not be the type of sheep to be used to further such propaganda or to be pointing a gun at some one or boarding a bus with a bomb or protesting other people doing legal things.

It is not religion or having faith but small minded petty people.

catholicireland

Religion can be a good thing.

Religion is a good thing. Ok, we all know of the terrible things that were done in the name of religion in the past, but we have to get over that and look to the future. If you dont want to be a Catholic thats fine.
Anyone can look into a religion and take out its bad parts and constantly blab on about them, any religion, people just have to get over it.

Nevyn

Honestly at times I think this country need to have the catholic church tigthen
up it's act and lay down the law as to what makes you a real catholic.
A reformation of sorts and then we will have neo catholics, and the rest of the the bewildered will be told sorry your no if you want to be here are the rules if they dont agree with you find something else and stop bitching.

Sleepy

Corinthian - I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't more accurate that the figures in the Census. They're wildly inacurrate, as Thaed pointed out, the available options weren't real options or in any way a comprehensive listing of the religions active in the Republic.

Thaed, I still fail to see how religion can be a good thing. It facilitates the manipulation of others (whether for a bake sale to raise money for orphans or mass murder on a crusade, both are instances of individuals being driven to perform an act through their religion) and I can't ever really see this as a positive thing.

Until I really thought about it, I used to consider religion to be an evil thing. After consideration though, it's just another piece of claptrap that gullible people use to make themselves feel better about the fact our lives are pretty meaningless. Nowadays I hold it in the same light as tarot cards, fortune tellers etc. I won't think it's "wrong" of you to believe in it, but I reserve the right to mock that belief as naieve, stupid or weak.

Sleepy

catholicireland wrote:

Religion is a good thing.

Why?

Ok, we all know of the terrible things that were done in the name of religion in the past, but we have to get over that and look to the future.

Terrible things are still being done in the name of religion. Or did you sleep through last Thursday and all the subsequent news programs?

If you dont want to be a Catholic thats fine.

Thanks, that's so open minded of you.

Anyone can look into a religion and take out its bad parts and constantly blab on about them, any religion, people just have to get over it.

Or you can just as easily look into a religion and think about the crap being spouted to you, realise that there's no tangible evidence of any kind to support that crap and using common sense (or Occam's Razor) figure out for yourself that no religion on this planet is anything more than a nice fairy tale.

Raiser

When the Church and clergy in this country has eventually made its last € payout for abusing/neglecting/mistreating our children and other misfortunes condemned to their care I'd like to get legal advice to investigate being compensated for the hours I've lost in those evil churches while they collected money in those well worn baskets.

I'm enjoying witnessing the decline of the Catholic church in Ireland, I think there should be a website highlighting the church closures and dwindling support as well as their failing efforts to recruit new collar-toting salespeople/con-artists etc.

I welcomed Ratzingers promotion as hes so obviously going to drive the church into further disrepute through his archaic ideas/inflexibility and blatant political deviousness. Think hes aiming for masses in to be said in latin and for women to throw themselves on the ground in humility when a priest passes.

I won't be sad when all those churches have been turned into art galleries and museums - they'll be lingering reminders of a bygone tyranny in a [then] better Ireland.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

Corinthian - I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't more accurate that the figures in the Census. They're wildly inacurrate, as Thaed pointed out, the available options weren't real options or in any way a comprehensive listing of the religions active in the Republic.

What Thaed pointed out is debatable - not that she explained why they numbers were 'wildly inaccurate' anyhow. I was not as much defending the census figures as pointing out that your 'wind guestimation' was unlikely to be a better metre.

Raiser wrote:

I won't be sad when all those churches have been turned into art galleries and museums - they'll be lingering reminders of a bygone tyranny in a [then] better Ireland.

It actually is quite amazing how much hysteria this topic seems to invoke. I wonder if it would be possible to have a rational debate about religion here some day?

Raiser

The Corinthian wrote:

It actually is quite amazing how much hysteria this topic seems to invoke. I wonder if it would be possible to have a rational debate about religion here some day?

Hysteria? Its more of an idle, self-indulgent resentment - its an pastime of mine to observe and consider the decline of the church in Ireland.

Much in the same way as a farmer watches his crops prosper and thrive with some satisfaction it satisfies me to observe the church as it shrivels and wilts.

The Corinthian

Raiser wrote:

Hysteria? Its more of an idle, self-indulgent resentment - its an pastime of mine to observe and consider the decline of the church in Ireland.

Much in the same way as a farmer watches his crops prosper and thrive with some satisfaction it satisfies me to observe the church as it shrivels and wilts.

Emotive, irrational and excessive behaviour - hysteria.

You’re right however on the self-indulgence.

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

It actually is quite amazing how much hysteria this topic seems to invoke. I wonder if it would be possible to have a rational debate about religion here some day?

I can see why many Irish people are so vitriolic when it comes to the subject of the Catholic church. Any intelligent person, religious or not, can see the damage done to society by allowing a single religion undue influence in the governance of that society. Whether or not you care to admit it, whilst the Catholic church no longer has the influence it once had in Ireland, the influence is still there (particularly in our education and health sectors) and the blatant control it once had in Irish politics is still in the living memory of many of our citizens.

As your own sig quotes: "Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate". When you get down to brass tacks, this is all any religious person can ever claim to be basing their beliefs on: faith. Hardly reassuring for those of us who prefer to see governance based on logic, our understanding of science and common sense derived from provable facts.

Personally, it gauls me that something as flimsy as faith can have an influence on the running of this country. However, there are things that sicken me more in Irish politics (the tolerance for corruption, the nod and a wink means of doing everything, the refusal to sack corrupt TD's etc.) and whilst I disagree with the philosophy of religions and regard faith as something for the naieve or delusional, I can see that religions do have some positive spin-offs (aid agencies, missionary works etc). I'd rather that people didn't do these good deeds out of a fear of a bogeyman who'll torture their "eternal souls" :rolleyes: for all eternity or to please a benevolant maker but regardless of their motivation, they're positive actions.

To be fair, it's very easy to see why the non-religious of us are so scornful of the beliefs themselves. Fysh made a great comparison in this thread over on Philosophy http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=218366 about the beliefs of the religious seeming as ludicrous as the belief that "invisisble pink unicorns" are all around us. It's an equally improbable belief to those of almost any religeon, let's say Judaism for example. The only reason that the Jewish aren't laughed at for their faith is down to the sheer number of them. The number of people that believe something is not a good enough reason to accept it, otherwise we'd still be afraid to sail around the world for fear of falling off the edge.

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

Emotive, irrational and excessive behaviour - hysteria.

You’re right however on the self-indulgence.

All equally applicable to the religious.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

I can see why many Irish people are so vitriolic when it comes to the subject of the Catholic church.

I’m not denying that there is reason for the vitriol, only that it is irrational, emotive and bordering on hysterical in reasoned debate.

Any intelligent person, religious or not, can see the damage done to society by allowing a single religion undue influence in the governance of that society.

Absolutely. A single religion. Not Roman Catholicism.

While we may have strong feelings towards the Roman Catholic Church, we cannot allow a debate on religion to be monopolised by it or these feelings. If we do it simply becomes another example of adolescent church bashing and the original question is forgotten.

As your own sig quotes: "Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate".

This is something that is not limited to the religious - you don’t have to believe in God to be a fanatic.

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

While we may have strong feelings towards the Roman Catholic Church, we cannot allow a debate on religion to be monopolised by it or these feelings.

While I agree with the sentiment, it's almost unavoidable that people will bring the RC church into the debate in Ireland given their dominance of religious affairs in the country and education system in which we were reared. I try my best not to, in fact, that's why I purposely selected Judaism as the religeon to compare the "invisible pink unicorns" to in my last post as I can understand how Catholics could feel victimised by the constant singling out of their religion in these debates (and lets face it, religion thrives on victimisation).

This is something that is not limited to the religious - you don’t have to believe in God to be a fanatic.

True, though that doesn't detract from my point.

Raiser

The Corinthian wrote:

Emotive, irrational and excessive behaviour - hysteria.

You’re right however on the self-indulgence.

Hysteria (Noun) extreme fear, excitement, anger, etc. which cannot be controlled.

The good, true and pious people on the righteous path to salvation at the feet of the lord used to brand any thinking person as a vile blasphemer. Nowadays I see it fashionable to twist words - but then you theologians have been doing that ever since the snake escaped the burning bush and hijacked the ark that Noah built on Old McDonalds farm.

It was me that mentioned self-indulence and I think we're entitled to bask in the face of the Roman Catholic churches last sorry chapter. And you must agree as they take steps to cover up their evils and dodge their responsibilities and evade their punishments that this last chapter is turning into a pretty sorry, pathetic and tawdry affair.

The Corinthian

Raiser wrote:

Hysteria (Noun) extreme fear, excitement, anger, etc. which cannot be controlled.

Seems to be an accurate enough description of your behaviour with relation to this topic.

The good, true and pious people on the righteous path to salvation at the feet of the lord used to brand any thinking person as a vile blasphemer. Nowadays I see it fashionable to twist words - but then you theologians have been doing that ever since the snake escaped the burning bush and hijacked the ark that Noah built on Old McDonalds farm.

We theologians? Who said I’m in the slightest bit religious - had the quote in my sig about faith being the boast of a man too lazy to investigate (as it might actually suggest that I am in fact not religious) escaped your notice? Or were you too lazy to investigate?

As I pointed out to Sleepy (and no, it did not invalidate his point) you don’t have to believe in God to be a fanatic.

It was me that mentioned self-indulence and I think we're entitled to bask in the face of the Roman Catholic churches last sorry chapter. And you must agree as they take steps to cover up their evils and dodge their responsibilities and evade their punishments that this last chapter is turning into a pretty sorry, pathetic and tawdry affair.

Get off the cross, someone needs the wood

Sleepy

The Corinthian wrote:

Get off the cross, someone needs the wood

O/T Nice phrase, I think I'll borrow that!