Finally some justice metted out

Sand

You don't know what I think! Just because you assume I am liberal doesn't mean you are right. You are missing a huge point about the book if you think it's about who is good and who is bad. It's about the nature of society and human instinct. Pack mentality playing a big part as probably the case in the rape.

Youve spelt out clearly what you think - 14 year olds are still confused over whether its alright to beat a man savagely, threaten to murder him, steal his property, lock him in a boot, and then pepetrate an evil rape and assault of his girlfriend whilst taunting him. Yes, this is indeed a tricky grey moral area where we must ask "What would Jesus do"? What are you basing this view of 14 year old morality on? Your own experiences growing up?

Theyre 2 years off being able to decide for themselves if they want to engage in sexual activity and only 4 off being able vote, and yet blatantly obvious moral judgements are beyond them?

Seriously - these guys are scum. Pure and simple. The only thing that would bother me in a case like this is trying to devise a punishment suitable. Id admire the Spanish womans quick thinking, but being burned to death was probably too quick and painless for that particular scumbag. I think we can safely discount that filth like this are ever going to be safe to release into society. Though rather than castration, one method that might be employed to make them "safe-ish" for release is to blind them in some way. Without their eyesight they shouldnt pose much of a threat to anyone, and not being able to see would be a suitable life long punishment for them.

Youre right though, I wouldnt call your views liberal. Id struggle to remain within the boundaries of civility if I attempted to describe them so Ill not go down that road.

Corporal and capital punishment cannot ever be allowed into law again in any civilized country because every legal system is inherently fallible. It would be nice if we could throw the thrill-killers on a bonfire and hack the nuts off rapists but its inconceivable to allow a judge that power. Many judges are bigoted biased megalomaniacs whose interest lies more in self-glorification than justice.

Oh I think were quite safe in that regard. Judges do their best to ensure that even the guilty never see the inside of a jail cell, so that the idea of corporal punishment wouldnt even enter their minds.

rooferPete

Hi,

Sorry if some believe that long post didn't contribute anything, the main purpose of my way of expressing my thoughts is to hopefully get others to sit back for a moment and think a little.

My reason for picking out the 14 year old is because he is still at an age where his thought process is forming, I believe if he gets the proper education and any other help that may be needed he could become a positive contributer to society.

The 16 year olds can still be rehabilated if there is a proper system in place to help show them what they did wrong and to teach them the social skills they are so obviously lacking in.

Here is a thought, what do you think may have happened if the 24 year old had been given a chance of education and some semblence of normality way back at conviction number 1 ?

As for that individual I wouldn't be too concerned about him re-offending, he has 20 years to either kill himself on drugs or be killed by the bigger fish in his now very small pond.

I found the replies to 4 children in a damp one roomed flat very interesting, words to the effect that they should be removed from that flat, I didn't see any reference to the parents being removed with them.

My reading of that scenario was take the children away from the parents, how about sterilisation for the parents ? after all they can still continue reproducing without radical intervention.

A Solution, house the family and put an education program in place for the parents ?, when the parents get to see the benefits of a father who can provide more than social welfare and a mother who can manage a household budget we then have contributers to society.

I would think even a degree in economics would show that as a wise investment by society for the greater good of society.

As or the pack mentality and the humans feeding off each other, why do we have towns and cities all over the world if it's not natural for humans to organise in groups ?
we can look at the poorest countries in the world where the people rome the land in groups looking for fodder for their livestock or just food for themselves.

I would like the pack mentality to dissolve a little and allow me to build my home away from the crowd on my own site with some space around me,but I would still value my neighbour, maybe more so.

My idea doesn't suit society as proven by the fact that people who live in large towns in apartments can object to my planning application even though they are twenty miles away, so society is a grouping by nature.

The Death Penalty ? what a joke the States in the USA that have the Death Penalty are perfect examples of a system that does not work, the criminal is put into a special section of the prison while their legal team fight appeals for the next twenty years at the tax payers expense.

Some may say I am a Liberal, I would prefer the tag of realist, each person mentioned here was born without opinions about society, because of their up bringing and how they were treated or not treated by their fellow man they committed a horrific crime.

How many who posted are parents ? how many have children passed or close to the oldest age 24 years ?

Today's child is watching images on television screens that are violent, full of sex acts and innuendo that the childs mind cannot tell the the difference between what is reality and what is fiction.

There was a time when Ireland was said to be ten years behind the UK and twenty years behind the USA, the latch key kids who have the hours unsupervised some spend that time drinking and even watching porn movies.

It happened in other countries before it happened here, of course the mighty cheap to borrow euro is on the scene now, it has taken less than twenty years for murder not to make headline news and we wonder what went wrong ?

I believe we didn't force the very people we voted into power to look at those societies and evaluate what was wrong, that way we may have had a chance to prevent "The Scumbag" problem, personally I believe we are only looking at the begining.

RicardoSmith

All this concern for and debate on the convicted. But hardly anything for the victims

ionapaul

So it is society's fault, TVs fault, porn's fault, urbanisation's fault, the cheap Euro's fault, the lack of adequate social welfare's fault...but not the convicted's fault! 'I'm sorry your honour, the availablity of blue movies and low-interest loans drove me to gang rape...I hope you can see these as mitigating circumstances!' We're just lucky Ivana Bacik isn't a judge (*yet*...eek), God knows who would have locked up for the crime of letting these poor unfortunate scumbags down.

MorningStar

ionapaul wrote:

So it is society's fault, TVs fault, porn's fault, urbanisation's fault, the cheap Euro's fault, the lack of adequate social welfare's fault...but not the convicted's fault! 'I'm sorry your honour, the availablity of blue movies and low-interest loans drove me to gang rape...I hope you can see these as mitigating circumstances!' We're just lucky Ivana Bacik isn't a judge (*yet*...eek), God knows who would have locked up for the crime of letting these poor unfortunate scumbags down.

I think you are missing a big point of at least my arguement.
It's not that they haven't done wrong or that it is just there background that effects their behaviour. The soluion is not as easy as kill them , mutilate them or lock them up for ever. It's important to understand what creates these people and how to deal with them and how to prevent more being created.
What ever you think about these people they exist and their living conditions and relative poverty makes the situation worse as far as people understand. It doesn't matter what you think the parents are like they and their kids need to be shown what is responsible. The problem is even for a relatively well brought up child the dangers and tempatation can be over powering. Not everybody falls victim but there is more pressure at the lower ends of society.

ixoy

So what are you saying MorningStar? That sentenceing on those from lower income backgrounds should be more lenient because they're ineherently more likely to be led astray?!

mycroft

Sleepy wrote:

As it stands, I believe you could pay for more efforts at rehabilitation by reducing prisoner's creature comforts and making sweeping changes to the way the prison service is run. How much does it cost to have a television in every cell in Mountjoy for example? How many more prison guards could you hire if you broke the prison guards union and got rid of the excessive overtime bills?

Call me nuts considering the working conditions that prison guards have to deal with you think the solution is making them weaker and more indifferent to the situation.

How much money could be saved by enforcing longer sentences instead of constantly putting the same people through the court process? How much drug rehabilitation would be needed if the supply was cut off completely? Sure, cold turkey isn't a pleasant way to come off an addiction but by the very fact that these people are in prison, you can be sure they aren't pleasant people.

And how do you cut the supply off effectively. Welcome to dreamland population you. If the war on drugs has taught us anything it is impossible to cut off supply. A recent article in the guardian explained how it was an effective method of smuggling drugs into prison was to get send down for a short sentence and bring them in either by body cavity or swallowing.

Oh and how are we stopping the drugs getting in, ah yes because you've slashed wages and crippled the union we've got cheap indifferent guards working for minimum wages.

And the suggestion that once the guys go cold turkey they'll magicall stay off drink/drugs when they leave prison? All you've done is cut off supply theres no support structure for them while they are in prison or when they leave.

Do you honestly believe that a few months worth of counselling is going to ensure that the criminal won't reoffend? A few years in prison with proper counselling services may help prevent repeat offenses, twelve months is extremely unlikely to.

Prisoners who have recieved counselling and education in prison are statistically less likely to offend. Angry management, basic literacy, drugs councilling. You've got their attention for 12 months the extra few quid to arrange counselling while they're there.

Well that's a great example of long sentencing working isn't it?

Tell me did you hear the sonic boom when the point flew over your head?

The reason is story worked is because of the last few years of his sentence he was in an open prison, trained given responsibility and skills, and got work. He came out of prison with a job and an apartment, and life skills and counselling to help him make the adjustment.

Heres the part you missed.

Most people don't get that.

I don't believe our current prison system works and never have I said that I do. I will make the point that if someone's behaviour in prison demonstrates that despite counselling etc that they haven't reformed, society is better off if that person is kept away from the rest of society and so, sometimes it is better to leave someone locked up for the rest of their natural lives.

No you've made massive sweaping generalisations about the prison population and the concept of counselling. You've yet to explain who decides who doesn't get parole or remand or anything, or how it would work. You've yet to demostrate how people who've never been given a first chance don't deserve a 2nd chance

Who's putting words in who's mouth now? My problem with MorningStar's posts is that he seems to believe these thugs have been treated harshly.

again, pot kettle?

Anyone involved in a crime spree of that extent that ends up in the brutal gang rape of a woman needs at least a ten year sentence to stand a chance of being rehabilitated.

And again in your ideal situation the prison who have rent a cop guards no facilities no training and they're just coming out of prison a worse human being than you sent it. Congradulations you've just continued the cycle.

dictionary.com offers us a quite loose definition of the word criminal. In my usage it would imply someone who has been convicted of a serious crime. You would seem to apply it to anyone that breaks the law in any fashion.

You've yet to bother to demostration that it's a proven fact that one of your criminals is a provable less worthy human being than anyone else.

From my usage of the word, we have a criminal who's incarcerated at tax-payer's expense and a law-abiding citizen who pays taxes. The former of these two individuals leeches from the economy whilst having already detracted from society. The latter contributes to the economy and society at large. Ergo, the criminals life is worth less to society and the economy than the normal tax-paying citizen's.

By this rational a pensioner or a child, or permentantly disabled human being is less worthy than I. Blimey I wonder what you'd be like on the titantic. "Men who's income exceeds 50,000 on the rafts first!"

I'm not talking about "a pure darwinal survival of the fitest". I mean that according to my morality the wellbeing of the majority (i.e. the non-criminal part of society) is more important than the wellbeing of those that have detracted from the wellbeing of the law-abiding. I find it difficult to understand how anyone could logically argue otherwise.

Yes but labelling, by deciding with the brush of the pen without allowing circumstance and background to play a factor you've decided who's a better human being. You make a nice sweeping accusation.

See I don't doubt those two kids who commited the rape aren't the most pleasant and decent human beings on the planet. Just as I don't doubt that they're going to be less pleasant and less decent after ten years in your prison.

Rehabilitation may be an option but it is a long process and I have to question how worthwhile it is to society at large to pay for ten to twenty years of counselling, incarceration, food etc to reform this individual who has already detracted from the very society that is forced to pay for their rehabilitation.

The cost of incarceration means that a prisoner costs the state more than a college student every year. Rehabilitation isn't necessarily a long process, and in the end of the day what do you want to emerge from prison.

I freely admit that I don't place an enormous value on a human life in and of itself. To paraphrase Batman Begins (strange place to take a quote from on a humanities board, I know, but I agree with the philosophy):

"It's not who you are deep inside, it's your actions that define who you are"

And to paraphrase me;

"I don't think much of anyone who draws their life philosophy from a summer blockbuster."

rooferPete

Hi,

The one missing item in the "Blame Someone Else List" is if I die at this keyboard make sure to sue Bill Gates for making Windows because without that O/S I wouldn't have been in front of a computer.

If you read my earlier post I think you will find reference to what were the parents doing allowing teenagers in a stolen car with a man some 10 years their senior.

I have not forgotten the horrific violence both physical and mental inflicted on two innocent people by a "Pack" behaving in a similar way to dogs who attack sheep in the fields

I do not escuse their actions nobody could, in fact I was taking that as a given point the one thing that every person posting has in common, we all recognise the two lives ruined by the actions of a gang of thugs.

I was of the understanding that many were voicing their thoughts on what the real punishment should be, or what they would like to see even if only in a moment of anger.

All of the points raised by ionapaul do not make for a defence of this or any other crime but to the weaker of mind they could be an influence in the formative years.

I may be abnormal because I have never had this primal urge to be part of a gang forcing a woman to have sex, then again I think by reading these posts I am probably normal.

When children are allowed access to all of the negatives and I do believe a 14 year old should not even know what gang rape is, of course that is most likely the fool in me.

So at what age should we introduce our children to all of the negatives in our society ?

How many are being introduced by default because parents are finding peace in handing over 50 euro notes to children to get them out of their way while they try to relax after a hard weeks work ?

Parenting is the most important job people undertake when they bring children into this world, forming and moulding the childs mind and keeping them in healthy activities is part of that job.

When my children (now young adults) got a No answer to what appeared to be a simple request because other parents allowed their friends to hang around the parks etc my explanation was simple.

You didn't come with a book of instructions so your mother and I have to make the judgement calls, we may be wrong but if we are you can correct our mistakes when you have your own children (words to that effect).

Perhaps if we as a society were willing to provide the support to the parents who have no parenting skills, maybe poor education or just copying what happened in their own homes such crimes could be avoided.

The social services in this country which should start at parish level are practically non existant anymore, so we are going to pay either in more vicious crimes by younger people or in cash to put active support and education on the ground.

It is our choice, we can see what is happening all around us regardless of the cost I would like to think the Professionals already employed by society are working to prevent another crime like this happening.

Sadly it appears to be in the "Wish List".

.

MorningStar

ixoy wrote:

So what are you saying MorningStar? That sentenceing on those from lower income backgrounds should be more lenient because they're ineherently more likely to be led astray?!

No just it needs consideration. The sentence should reflect the needs of the criminal to detain, treat, teach or study. I belive the situations that create them need to be sorted out. I just don't think you can simply lable people scumbags and write them off. If punishment worked I would probably advocate that but it doesn't seem to from research.

Sleepy

mycroft wrote:

Call me nuts considering the working conditions that prison guards have to deal with you think the solution is making them weaker and more indifferent to the situation.

Removing a union does not necessarily mean making the staff weaker. Reducing their working hours to a regular working week would, if anything, give you a staff with better levels of concentration and energy because they're not exhausted from working 60 or 70 hours a week. The Prison Guards union is perpetuating this for the financial gain of their members earning ridiculous levels of overtime, not for the good of their health, the standard of the prison service, better training for their members, safer working conditions or anything else that a union was needed for in the days before proper workplace legislation. You're living in the past if you believe unions are beneficial or even necessary in modern day Ireland.

And how do you cut the supply off effectively. Welcome to dreamland population you. If the war on drugs has taught us anything it is impossible to cut off supply. A recent article in the guardian explained how it was an effective method of smuggling drugs into prison was to get send down for a short sentence and bring them in either by body cavity or swallowing.

A fairly straightforward means of doing it would be to have, for want of a better word, a quarantine area for new prisoners entering the prison where there's more attention payed to them (this could also be argued for on the grounds that new detainees are the one's at highest suicide risk and require the most attention) so that they can't smuggle drugs in through body cavity or swallowing.

To prevent visitors from bringing in drugs to loved ones? Simple: don't allow physical contact during visits. The glass wall we're so used to seeing in movies would work perfectly.

Sure, you can probably never prevent ALL drugs from entering the prison, but you can make sure that the situation isn't like it currently is in Ireland where Class A drugs are easier to get hold of inside Mountjoy than on the street.

Oh and how are we stopping the drugs getting in, ah yes because you've slashed wages and crippled the union we've got cheap indifferent guards working for minimum wages.

Where did I say guards would be working for minimum wage? Where did I say to even hire cheap guards? I said that if the overtime bill was reduced/removed we could afford more guards. Stop twisting words and making points for yourself to argue with.

And the suggestion that once the guys go cold turkey they'll magicall stay off drink/drugs when they leave prison? All you've done is cut off supply theres no support structure for them while they are in prison or when they leave.

I've never stated that prisoners shouldn't receive any counselling, my point was related to treatments such as methodone which any junkie will tell you is a harder drug to get off than heroin itself.

Prisoners who have recieved counselling and education in prison are statistically less likely to offend. Angry management, basic literacy, drugs councilling. You've got their attention for 12 months the extra few quid to arrange counselling while they're there.

Again, I haven't said that we shouldn't try to rehabilitate prisoners. 12 months of edducation and therapy sounds like a half-measure to me if you're dealing with the kind of kids that can go on crime rampages like these lads did. Give them five to ten years of treatment, however, and you might manage to turn them into worthwhile members of society.

Tell me did you hear the sonic boom when the point flew over your head?

The reason is story worked is because of the last few years of his sentence he was in an open prison, trained given responsibility and skills, and got work. He came out of prison with a job and an apartment, and life skills and counselling to help him make the adjustment.

Heres the part you missed.

Most people don't get that.

I think the duration of his sentence and *amount* of education & counselling would be the key determinants to his successful rehabilitation. Do you honestly think that people would reform if you treated them like that from the outset? I think most of them would walk out the door to be honest.

No you've made massive sweaping generalisations about the prison population and the concept of counselling. You've yet to explain who decides who doesn't get parole or remand or anything, or how it would work. You've yet to demostrate how people who've never been given a first chance don't deserve a 2nd chance

My generalisations have been no more sweeping than yours. If you'd read my posts I suggested that a psychiatrist would have to be part of any decision making body determining who should be eligible for release. What do you want me to do? Hand you a plan for new prison system? Sure, hire me for 12 months and fund the research and I'll do that, it sounds like interesting work tbh.

again, pot kettle?

hello pot.

And again in your ideal situation the prison who have rent a cop guards no facilities no training and they're just coming out of prison a worse human being than you sent it. Congradulations you've just continued the cycle.

Congratulations you've managed to completely misinterpret my posts.

You've yet to bother to demostration that it's a proven fact that one of your criminals is a provable less worthy human being than anyone else.

You quoted the logical demonstration below this statement.

By this rational a pensioner or a child, or permentantly disabled human being is less worthy than I. Blimey I wonder what you'd be like on the titantic. "Men who's income exceeds 50,000 on the rafts first!"

The difference is that the permanently disabled person who can't work (many disabled people can provide for themselves you know) have had no part in their reliance on society. They haven't chosen to be born disabled. You may try and argue that the thugs in question didn't choose to be born on the wrong side of the tracks but as we've all agreed, people born into poverty don't necesssarily become criminals so some degree of choice *is* there.

The pensioner should also have prepared for their retirement with a pension plan while they were part of the workforce (and if they haven't been able to provide for themselves adequately, these are the people who have paved the way to our current economic success and are entitle to share in it), the child's parents accepted the responsibility to provide for that child when conceiving it and if the child has no parents it is society's duty to provide for that child.

I don't see it as society's duty to provide for someone that wants to destroy or harm that society. We can try to reform them because that could ultimately benefit society and it's simply the right thing to do but I see this as society's choice, not society's duty.

Yes but labelling, by deciding with the brush of the pen without allowing circumstance and background to play a factor you've decided who's a better human being. You make a nice sweeping accusation.

This is an abstract conversation and as such generalisations will have to be made. Laws cannot be legislated for on an individual basis and that's why we have a court system designed to apply them fairly (even though it may not always work that way).

If you're one of those people who believe that no human life is worth more than another for moral or religious reasons that's your perogative just as it's mine to believe that human lives have varying degrees of worth based on my morality and understanding of economics.

See I don't doubt those two kids who commited the rape aren't the most pleasant and decent human beings on the planet. Just as I don't doubt that they're going to be less pleasant and less decent after ten years in your prison.

I own a prison? Cool! I wonder how much I can sell it to the government for since theirs are so over-crowded

But seriously, how much less pleasant can they get? I agree that our current system needs reform and I'm suggesting some of the ways that I feel it could be done: longer sentences, more spending on reform and education and even suggesting a number of ways in which this could be financed.

The cost of incarceration means that a prisoner costs the state more than a college student every year. Rehabilitation isn't necessarily a long process, and in the end of the day what do you want to emerge from prison.

Here we get to the crux of our disagreement. I believe that rehabilitation IS a long process. I don't believe you can undo years of social conditioning in a matter of months. That, to me, sounds like the type of claptrap that Tony Quinn sells to the gullible. Your own example of a perfectly reformed individual spent 20 years at "Her Majesty's Exense".

And to paraphrase me;

"I don't think much of anyone who draws their life philosophy from a summer blockbuster."

I didn't say it was my life philosophy and I admitted it was a strange place to quote from but then again, interesting concepts can come from strange places at times. Can you honestly contradict it? Is Hannibal Lecter a nice guy if deep, deep down he's a lovely guy but he just has a problem with cannabilism?

mycroft

Sleepy wrote:

Removing a union does not necessarily mean making the staff weaker. Reducing their working hours to a regular working week would, if anything, give you a staff with better levels of concentration and energy because they're not exhausted from working 60 or 70 hours a week. . You're living in the past if you believe unions are beneficial or even necessary in modern day Ireland.

Er new to the planet are we? Can you point out one example where privatisation has given better service, and better working conditions on these isles in the past few decades?

I've heard your ignorant anti union rants on this site before and I've no time for them. Unions can be damaging for workers rights, but I've worked on unionised and non unionised jobs, hell I've even worked on jobs were I was not protected by my part of the union and others were by theirs, and they were far better treated and paid than I.

A fairly straightforward means of doing it would be to have, for want of a better word, a quarantine area for new prisoners entering the prison where there's more attention payed to them (this could also be argued for on the grounds that new detainees are the one's at highest suicide risk and require the most attention) so that they can't smuggle drugs in through body cavity or swallowing.

To prevent visitors from bringing in drugs to loved ones? Simple: don't allow physical contact during visits. The glass wall we're so used to seeing in movies would work perfectly.

1. Your second idea is a breach of human rights.

2. Last year, and I think this guy needs a job involving lateral thinking, was arrested outside limerick prison. What was he doing. He was chucking tomatoes at the fencing surrounding the prison. The tomatoes had been slit with a razor, and drugs had been inserted, the tomatoes would stick to the fencing, pigeons would peck at the fruit, and the drugs would fall out.

Lesson. You cannot underestimate or account for every method of drugs entering a prison and the creativity and intelligence of a drug dealer.

Sure, you can probably never prevent ALL drugs from entering the prison, but you can make sure that the situation isn't like it currently is in Ireland where Class A drugs are easier to get hold of inside Mountjoy than on the street.

The suggest we can make our prisons drug free is laughable considering that on this island, in the past decade, the IRA were able to smuggle guns into the most secure prison in europe, to carry out a hit.

And as you mentioned if there is any drugs entering prison it's impossible to go for your "tough love" cold turkey approach.

Where did I say guards would be working for minimum wage? Where did I say to even hire cheap guards? I said that if the overtime bill was reduced/removed we could afford more guards. Stop twisting words and making points for yourself to argue with.

Nope, it's the logical conclusion of your argument, it's whats happened in other industries when the "bad" unions have been broken. The suggestion that you'll get "more" guards if the unions are broken can't be proven by you.

I've never stated that prisoners shouldn't receive any counselling, my point was related to treatments such as methodone which any junkie will tell you is a harder drug to get off than heroin itself.

And who said anything about methodone. It's laughable you keep telling me to "stop" putting words into your mouth, and then you go and do the same. There are alternative treatments.

Again, I haven't said that we shouldn't try to rehabilitate prisoners. 12 months of edducation and therapy sounds like a half-measure to me if you're dealing with the kind of kids that can go on crime rampages like these lads did. Give them five to ten years of treatment, however, and you might manage to turn them into worthwhile members of society.

And again in your stripped down tough like it or lump it "prison works" stripped of resources prison, what sort of counselling do you get.

Whats more, how do you know counselling doesn't work in a 12 month cycle. 12 months can be a hell of a long time, if intensive counselling is used.

I think the duration of his sentence and *amount* of education & counselling would be the key determinants to his successful rehabilitation. Do you honestly think that people would reform if you treated them like that from the outset? I think most of them would walk out the door to be honest.

And your evidence of the above is what? I think it needs to be progressive, for example with the two children who commited this crime, do you think this was their first brush with the law? Shouldn't the intervention have been more dramatic and earlier?

My generalisations have been no more sweeping than yours. If you'd read my posts I suggested that a psychiatrist would have to be part of any decision making body determining who should be eligible for release. What do you want me to do? Hand you a plan for new prison system? Sure, hire me for 12 months and fund the research and I'll do that, it sounds like interesting work tbh.

You already claim to have the right idea, I think you and mikey mc dowell could come up with a working model of a gulag in 12 minutes never mind 12 months.

As for the psychiatrist, it may have escaped your attention but right now a doctor in england is on trial for his "shaken baby" syndrome, which by now is been exposed as a shame. A psychiatrist is going to give you their opinion, a subjective view, what happens if they get it wrong. Which is worse keeping someone who is rehabilated in prison, or releasing someone who's not?

Congratulations you've managed to completely misinterpret my posts.

Now I'm extrapoliating from your stance.

The difference is that the permanently disabled person who can't work (many disabled people can provide for themselves you know) have had no part in their reliance on society. They haven't chosen to be born disabled. You may try and argue that the thugs in question didn't choose to be born on the wrong side of the tracks but as we've all agreed, people born into poverty don't necesssarily become criminals so some degree of choice *is* there.

Yes there is some degree of choice, however there is some degree of "pre destiny" isn't there?

The pensioner should also have prepared for their retirement with a pension plan while they were part of the workforce (and if they haven't been able to provide for themselves adequately, these are the people who have paved the way to our current economic success and are entitle to share in it), the child's parents accepted the responsibility to provide for that child when conceiving it and if the child has no parents it is society's duty to provide for that child.

Of course the pensioner only has a pension thanks to the unions you don't think are any good.

This is an abstract conversation and as such generalisations will have to be made. Laws cannot be legislated for on an individual basis and that's why we have a court system designed to apply them fairly (even though it may not always work that way).

No it's not an abstract conversation, we're now discussing an abstract concept and how it applies to a real situation.

I find it hilarious that you defend the court system to apply them fairly but earlier you suggest that a psycharist would use their opinion of individuals to decide whether the are rehabiliated, so you are legislating on an individual basis.

it's mine to believe that human lives have varying degrees of worth based on my morality and understanding of economics.

Won't be seeing you watching live aid then. Because economically a african isn't worth as much as an american.

I own a prison? Cool! I wonder how much I can sell it to the government for since theirs are so over-crowded

Your jokes are really really flat.

I agree that our current system needs reform and I'm suggesting some of the ways that I feel it could be done: longer sentences, more spending on reform and education and even suggesting a number of ways in which this could be financed.

Yeah by slashing unions, you've yet to demostrate that the unions economially weaken the prison. You've claimed that the counselling during shorter sentences isn't worthwhile, a really basic paradox, the likelyhood of someone serving a longer sentence having been in prison for a minor offence for a shorter sentence is likely, and a better chance for earlier intervention is more likely.

Here we get to the crux of our disagreement. I believe that rehabilitation IS a long process. Your own example of a perfectly reformed individual spent 20 years at "Her Majesty's Exense".

Weary sigh.

And my example (if you'd bothered to read it) only was exposed to the open prison in the last few years of sentence, before then he was an institutilsed hard man, it was the scant few years he spent at the end of the sentence that changed him.

I didn't say it was my life philosophy and I admitted it was a strange place to quote from but then again, interesting concepts can come from strange places at times.

I'm not going to bother with this popcorn philosophy.

StupidLikeAFox

You take this site waaaayyy to seriously mycroft

OLDYELLAR

I see some farmers were put in jail for refusing to let Shell put pipes through their land or something .I think that really says it all about the justice system in Ireland , where murderers and rapists walk the streets and people standing up for what they believe in and are completely within their rights to do so end up in jail.

Also was reading about an old case in england where a guy shot a burglar in his home and ended up in jail himself then , I think that really says it all.

StupidLikeAFox

Its all well and good to be sitting here and giving out, everyone seems to think the politicians are gangsters and do more harm than good. But whats going to happen? Whats anyone going to do about it? Will anyone who actually wants to do good actually run for office or will it just be like this forever? This is why i dont give out about politicians, it is actually pointless.

OLDYELLAR

I was actually thinking about getting into it myself , Was talking to a woman who canvasses with fine gael every year the other day , she was on about how to get into it , say itd be a couple of years before I have the time to get into anything like that though, definately when my accountancy training is done its something id like to get into.I think whats needed is some fresh blood , a change of thought or something , its been the same people in power for too long and people are loosing all faith in the government as it is.

nlgbbbblth

OLDYELLAR wrote:

IAlso was reading about an old case in england where a guy shot a burglar in his home and ended up in jail himself then , I think that really says it all.

Tony Martin.
There were two burglars, one had 116 convictions. He shot one of them dead.

The Daily Mail supported his actions, The Guardian didn't.

Now if the burglars had killed him what would The Guardian have said?

I read The Guardian every day and think it's a great paper but sometimes it can be sickeningly right-on.

OLDYELLAR

Personally speaking I support the guys actions.I know people will say that makes you as bad as murderers bla bla but like they shouldnt of been on his property in the 1st place.They tried to rob the guy an 1 of em winded up dead , good enough for em , only thing id have a problem with is he didnt kill the 2nd lad too.

iguana

MorningStar wrote:

I haven't defended their actions. Society is judged on how it treats the weakest memebers.

From inside the boot he heard the gang shout "my turn next" and "we’re riding your bird" as the woman was repeatedly raped.

She was pushed onto the bonnet facing forward and an attempt to anally rape her was made. One of the gang sat in front of her, laughing in her face and asking her for a kiss.

She was dragged into the car and the gang took turns raping her while they threatened to burn the car with her boyfriend in the boot if she resisted. She was able to identify the accused man as the third to have raped her. She was also forced to perform oral sex on her attackers.

Det Sgt said the ordeal lasted for around 45 minutes.

Who was the weakest member of society in that instance? And how was she treated.

I can understand your reluctantance to scream for vengance on people who are legally children. Children who there is no denying haven't had the best start in life.

But what about that woman. She will never, ever be free of that. It won't go away, it will always be with her no matter what she does. She could be an incredibly strong woman and she could get her life back on track, be happy, seem to get over it. But there will be nights that she dreams about it, or thinks about it before she falls asleep and she will go over it, again and again. Reliving it, sometimes as it happened, sometimes doing things differently and wishing that was how it had gone.

Every single day, for the rest of her life it will be in her background. Damaging her relationships, her ability to trust people, even her ability to leave the house or to stay home alone at night.

It will be in her partner's mind, in her parents' minds (because who could bear to know that happened to their baby). Her friends and siblings will treat her differently, not always - but sometimes - enough for it to hurt when she realises it is happening. If she has children it will alter the way she raises them, she will be more afraid for them than she ever would have been before this happened to her. Perhaps it will change her mind to ever even have children.

No matter how well she recovers it will not be complete and what did she do to deserve that? What did our society do to protect her? Apparently in our society 1 out of every 3 adult women has suffered some form of violent assault from a man. What is our society doing to protect these women, who are certainly, physically speaking, the weaker members of our society?

Of 477 sexual assualts reported to the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre in 2003,
143 cases were reported to the Gardaí.
27 cases were tried.
Resulting in 18 convictions.

I don't know how many convictions led to prison sentences, but if we assume they all did that would mean that less than 4% went to prison. Even if half of the women reporting attacks were making it up that is still less than 8% The reality of the situation however is that many women who've been sexually attacked have never looked for help. There are more than likely many women who were attacked that year who are not part of that 477, there are still only 18 convictions.

I think the 14 year old is smarter than you gave him credit for, he made a choice to do what he did, safe in the knowledge that we live in a society where over 90% of rapists (probably more )get away with it, and those who do get caught will more than likely get pathetic 4 year sentences.

He was 14, not 4. At 14 you can see pain in someones eyes, you can hear their screams. At 14 you don't know everything but you know enough to know that attacking and raping innocent people is wrong. And if you do it, you deserve to be punished, but you know enough to know that in all likelyhood you can do it anyway because you will probably not suffer any consequences.

Sure it would be great if he could be taken and rehabilitated and sent to happily spend the rest of his life caring for abandoned puppies - but that isn't going to happen. The society has a duty to care for it's weakest members - it's victims.

OLDYELLAR

The people involved in that rape should be taken out and shot!Sick Basta*ds , its stomach turning , I dont think I can describe in words how angry I was when i read that article and then the leaniency of the sentence those guys got , death would be too good for them but better than nothing.

shoegirl

What I want to know is what kind of a sick 25 year old hangs around with 14-16 year olds?

These guys are extremely dangerous. They should be dumped into a secure institution for a long long time.

Unfortunately our justice system doesn't see fit to withold the freedom of dangerous people who are not currently serving sentences. Perhaps such a system - though it would be deeply in contravention of the potential perpetrator's human rights - would prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Then again how do you identify a "potential rapist"?

Its all very difficult to know what exactly to do. Society tends to ignore the worst of the sprouting underclass and/or mentally unhinged until AFTER they have become a danger to society. Punishing them beforehand may be seen as inhumane.

Moriarty

OLDYELLAR wrote:

I see some farmers were put in jail for refusing to let Shell put pipes through their land or something .I think that really says it all about the justice system in Ireland , where murderers and rapists walk the streets and people standing up for what they believe in and are completely within their rights to do so end up in jail.

Yeah, you'll do well as a politican. Half read a story, then go off on a long rant that actually bears no relation to what happened. Well done.

It's easy to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

OLDYELLAR

Moriarty wrote:

Yeah, you'll do well as a politican. Half read a story, then go off on a long rant that actually bears no relation to what happened. Well done.

It's easy to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

why thank you

Moriarty

In case you're wondering, they were jailed for contempt of court, not some random stick-it-to-the-man noble action.

OLDYELLAR

Yea i know it was contempt of court because they refused to let pipelines run through their land .

mycroft

ColHol wrote:

You take this site waaaayyy to seriously mycroft

:rolleyes:

AFTER they have become a danger to society. Punishing them beforehand may be seen as inhumane.

And y'know illegal, wrong, and impossible to predict and goes aganist the moral and philosophical principles that our criminal justice system works on.

rooferPete

Hi,

Mycroft taking this too seriously ?

I think if anyone takes the time to read the post by Iguana they would see just how important this subject is.

Quote.

AFTER they have become a danger to society. Punishing them beforehand may be seen as inhumane.

Punishing them for this crime before it happened would have been reading the future, that I think we can all agree would be impossible.

What is not impossible is to have a system in place to read the signs and provide the correct institutions with the rescources to educate, punish, rehabilitate the young offenders on their first conviction.

Society, You, Me and our Judicial / Law enforcement system let these two people down, and the other cases where the numbers are supplied.

Drink, Drugs, Family Dysfunction are being used in the courts as mitigating circumstances, a proper system would have the majority of these cases prevented at Childrens Court Level.

The numbers that turn up in Smithfield without a parent or guardian should be the warning signs, yet the Judges must allow the majority of "Minors" to be remanded into their own custody ?????????

Unless we push our politicians to provide places of detention / evaluation these crimes and similar will become more the everyday occurance in our country because the Judges have nowhere to send young offenders.

What becomes the norm today, becomes the acceptable tommorrow.

Sleepy

mycroft wrote:

Er new to the planet are we? Can you point out one example where privatisation has given better service, and better working conditions on these isles in the past few decades?

I've heard your ignorant anti union rants on this site before and I've no time for them. Unions can be damaging for workers rights, but I've worked on unionised and non unionised jobs, hell I've even worked on jobs were I was not protected by my part of the union and others were by theirs, and they were far better treated and paid than I.

And can you name one example of an institution whose productivity has improved because of unionisation? We currently have criminals running the streets because of the greed of the prison-service unions.

I've worked in unionised and non-unionised positions myself mycroft. The unionised places were great to work for because you could sit on your ass and the company could do sweet fa about it.

I don't disagree with you that worker's rights are important but I can also see the importance of having a productive workforce.

1. Your second idea is a breach of human rights.

2. Last year, and I think this guy needs a job involving lateral thinking, was arrested outside limerick prison. What was he doing. He was chucking tomatoes at the fencing surrounding the prison. The tomatoes had been slit with a razor, and drugs had been inserted, the tomatoes would stick to the fencing, pigeons would peck at the fruit, and the drugs would fall out.

Lesson. You cannot underestimate or account for every method of drugs entering a prison and the creativity and intelligence of a drug dealer.

1. So are rape, theft, assault and attempted murder. I think that society's right to protection from criminals is more important than the criminal's right to have their mammy's pass them drugs during visits.
2. Maybe not, but you can certainly minnimise the number of successful attempts.

The suggest we can make our prisons drug free is laughable considering that on this island, in the past decade, the IRA were able to smuggle guns into the most secure prison in europe, to carry out a hit.

And as you mentioned if there is any drugs entering prison it's impossible to go for your "tough love" cold turkey approach.

So, should we just allow criminals to bring in their own drugs and guns with them? :rolleyes:

No system can be perfect. However, it's still important to have a system in place.

Nope, it's the logical conclusion of your argument, it's whats happened in other industries when the "bad" unions have been broken. The suggestion that you'll get "more" guards if the unions are broken can't be proven by you.

If the unions are broken the current overtime bill can be spent on hiring more full time prison wardens whilst still paying every current member of staff the wage they are contracted for. I didn't think that the logic was so difficult a concept that it needed explanation tbh.

And who said anything about methodone. It's laughable you keep telling me to "stop" putting words into your mouth, and then you go and do the same. There are alternative treatments.

Well, methadone is the current treatment of choice in Ireland and since you like the status quo so much it was a fairl logical conclusion that this was what you were referring to.

And again in your stripped down tough like it or lump it "prison works" stripped of resources prison, what sort of counselling do you get.

Whats more, how do you know counselling doesn't work in a 12 month cycle. 12 months can be a hell of a long time, if intensive counselling is used.

Where did I ever say I wanted a stripped down prison service? The only elements of the current system I want to see reduced are the freedom of access to drugs and the squandering of taxpayers money on avoidable over-time bills.

I'd like to see an example of someone with thirty-odd prior convictions, that had been arrested for gang rape and assault that was completely reformed after 12 months of counselling. It'd be a real boost to my (admittedly low) view of humanity.

And your evidence of the above is what? I think it needs to be progressive, for example with the two children who commited this crime, do you think this was their first brush with the law? Shouldn't the intervention have been more dramatic and earlier?

I couldn't agree more, they should have been taken into proper state care years ago.

You already claim to have the right idea, I think you and mikey mc dowell could come up with a working model of a gulag in 12 minutes never mind 12 months.

I won't even dignify this.

As for the psychiatrist, it may have escaped your attention but right now a doctor in england is on trial for his "shaken baby" syndrome, which by now is been exposed as a shame. A psychiatrist is going to give you their opinion, a subjective view, what happens if they get it wrong. Which is worse keeping someone who is rehabilated in prison, or releasing someone who's not?

Releasing someone who's not. They're a danger to society at large and can ruin more lives than they already have.

Yes there is some degree of choice, however there is some degree of "pre destiny" isn't there?

Yes, which is why we need to remove children from criminals in the first place. An attack on any problem has to be two-pronged. We need to deal with the problem instead of just the contributing factors. Otherwise we leave the law-abiding members of society at risk from thugs.

Of course the pensioner only has a pension thanks to the unions you don't think are any good.

*Sigh*

I find it hilarious that you defend the court system to apply them fairly but earlier you suggest that a psycharist would use their opinion of individuals to decide whether the are rehabiliated, so you are legislating on an individual basis.

Would a team of psychiatrists do you? Or are you honestly suggesting that we release prisoners based on their own word that they've reformed?

Won't be seeing you watching live aid then. Because economically a african isn't worth as much as an american.

Different concept and you know it.

Your jokes are really really flat.

Maybe, but at least I can debate this without getting so wrapped up in winning a debate that I lose my sense of humour.

Yeah by slashing unions, you've yet to demostrate that the unions economially weaken the prison.

The overtime bill does that for me.

You've claimed that the counselling during shorter sentences isn't worthwhile, a really basic paradox

Where have I claimed that? I said that I don't believe short term counselling will reform a violent criminal.

Weary sigh.

And my example (if you'd bothered to read it) only was exposed to the open prison in the last few years of sentence, before then he was an institutilsed hard man, it was the scant few years he spent at the end of the sentence that changed him.

So you want a prison which a criminal can walk out of on their first day of their sentence? Yeah, I can really see that working :rolleyes:

Sleepy

rooferPete wrote:

Hi,

Mycroft taking this too seriously ?

I think if anyone takes the time to read the post by Iguana they would see just how important this subject is.

Quote.

AFTER they have become a danger to society. Punishing them beforehand may be seen as inhumane.

Punishing them for this crime before it happened would have been reading the future, that I think we can all agree would be impossible.

What is not impossible is to have a system in place to read the signs and provide the correct institutions with the rescources to educate, punish, rehabilitate the young offenders on their first conviction.

Society, You, Me and our Judicial / Law enforcement system let these two people down, and the other cases where the numbers are supplied.

Drink, Drugs, Family Dysfunction are being used in the courts as mitigating circumstances, a proper system would have the majority of these cases prevented at Childrens Court Level.

The numbers that turn up in Smithfield without a parent or guardian should be the warning signs, yet the Judges must allow the majority of "Minors" to be remanded into their own custody ?????????

Unless we push our politicians to provide places of detention / evaluation these crimes and similar will become more the everyday occurance in our country because the Judges have nowhere to send young offenders.

What becomes the norm today, becomes the acceptable tommorrow.

Assuming the "two people" you refer to are the victims of the crime mentioned above, I have to say I agree with every word of your post.

rooferPete

Hi Sleepy,

Yes staying on topic with the above post

mycroft

want a prison which a criminal can walk out of on their first day of their sentence? Yeah, I can really see that working :rolleyes:

Y'know I was going to write a long response but then I saw this and realised there was little point in debating with someone who spends his time intentially misrepresnting what I'm saying.

What I will say is this sleepy, your ignorant anti union rants.

We're a dirth of evidence that the kind of prison service delievered by a non unionised company, is a shoddy mess. It's called group four security in the UK.

Furthermore there are again that industries compelled to disband unions underperform and create a danger to their workers and the people they serve, in the british rail industry.

But sleepy here isn't going to let basic things like facts get in the way of his rants.

For example you've not proved that unions are compelling workers to work over 60 hrs (what you're going to work an xtra 20 hrs a week, for a tenner an hour and a chance to get shiv'd) You've not bothered to check to see if there isn't a shortage of qualifed workers that necessities guards to work the xtra hours. Once again not bothering to let facts get in the way of a posionous little rant.

You haven't shown how you get qualified candiates to provide a better service.

It's really a joke and I've got better things to do with my time, to argue with someone who's made up their mind, and will just repeat themselves over and over again, without bothering to present anything to back up his assertions.