Finally some justice metted out

seamus

I've moved this Humanites. Try and maintain your civility.

Cianos

Sleepy wrote:

Not for any parent in Benejúzar she hasn't. There's now one less psycho on the streets to harm their children. Even the killer's mother is better off knowing that something so evil that she gave birth to is no longer walking the streets.


In your opinion. Many of us would feel that raping a 13 year old girl would mean you deserve a horrific death like that.


What burden? Knowing that the thing she's most afraid of can never hurt her again?


Because the rapist left her perfectly mentally balanced. I think if anything, the poor girl finally has closure on that aspect of her life.


I can't imagine any parent ever feeling that it wasn't the right thing to do tbh. More than likely this woman will be placed in a mental hospital for a time but I'd be very surprised if she ever sees a day's jail time (unless for wanton damage of the restaraunt?) because quite frankly, she doesn't deserve to.

Your whole post reads like a cheesy American TV film....ehh, I think life is slightly more complicated than that. "Closure"...jaysus.

Garibaldi

The facilities are there to punish, not to rehabilitate. This being the case, the punishment should be adjusted to take factors such as this no rehabilitation, nature of offence(s), danger to society on release/likelihood of re-offending (obviously high, given the lack of rehabilitation, and their attendance at "college" - what was this offence? A field trip??!). These sick, evil fúcks should be impaled on 10 metre, rough-cut wooden poles and left to die slowly, for all those thinking of following their example to see. God help the victims, because the facilities to rehabilitate them after such a horrible event aren't exactly shít-hot either, despite the best efforts of rape crisis centres etc. The only people who will welcome these pigs back, are in their own criminal sub-culture. They should be .... ah, screw it. You know what should happen to them.
Who cares about the complex issues that have led to their current situation? Their actions speak for themselves. If the amount of time and resources (not just in Ireland) devoted to aiding the criminal was, instead, diverted to the victims, life wouldn't be half as cushy as it currently is for these scum. I find it hard to believe that many of them find a prison sentence here a deterrent. 36 previous and still around? That's just insane. Three strikes and you're out really could make a difference to potential criminals of the future (http://www.threestrikes.org/ap_15.html). It's a different story for the current crop, though.
Bravo, indeed, to that woman from Alicante. She did the job the law should have done. Forcing the victim or their family to seek real justice is not the way.

Sleepy

MorningStar wrote:

I have already commented on that so maybe you could re-read the thread. Bascially just because you are a victim doesn't make you have the ability to give a fair and balanced view, quite the opposite. There are people out ther who think somebody should be killed for robbing for example.

I agree, being a victim doesn't give anyone a fair and balanced view. Your attitude, however is one of such sympathy for the criminals and their backgrounds that it is insulting to the victims. I'm also curious as to how you can be so demeaning towards those that want justice levelled against those that have wronged them and if that attitude would change were you (or someone close to you) the victim.

Tell me what age you think people understand right and wrong? What about the various children (4-9) who have killed ? Did some of they know what they were doing?

Well, given that these things are always fairly arbitrary (e.g. not all 18 year olds are responsible enough to be alowed drink), I'd say that a child could be fully expected to know right and wrong from the age of 12. Diminished capacity can be argued if that child is mentally retarded but I don't think there's an excuse for such behaviour and regardless of excuses or motivations, I don't want someone who's capable of such unprovoked agression and horror walking the streets.

Sleepy

Cianos wrote:

Your whole post reads like a cheesy American TV film....ehh, I think life is slightly more complicated than that. "Closure"...jaysus.

It takes more than insulting what someone has said to counter it.

Make a point or don't bother wasting boards.ie's disk space.

zachler

One of the teenagers convicted, Darragh Ryan, was badly beaten in Wheatfield prison in October last year. He spent a night in Tallaght Hospital and was transferred back ot St. Pats where he and the other's were isolated for their own safety.

Hobart

Every 14yo understands the difference between right and wrong, unless they have some mental dificiency. These guys obviuosly knew that what they were doing was wrong. They may not fully grasp the implications of their crime, but I'm sure prison will teach them a valuable lesson.

MorningStar

Sleepy wrote:

Not for any parent in Benejúzar she hasn't. There's now one less psycho on the streets to harm their children. Even the killer's mother is better off knowing that something so evil that she gave birth to is no longer walking the streets.

Actually there is a different psycho on the streets. The woman could have easily caused the death of other people in the bar. I very much doubt any parents would like to think there child was burnt to death.

Sleepy wrote:

In your opinion. Many of us would feel that raping a 13 year old girl would mean you deserve a horrific death like that.

How do you know his question wasn't a genuine concern about his victim. He could have been remorsefull and the mother felt incensed and decided to kill him.

Sleepy wrote:

What burden? Knowing that the thing she's most afraid of can never hurt her again?

The burden of having her mother in prison for something that happeneed to her. Maybe she is afraid of her mother becsue she set a man on fire. Pluse the statement says she regrets what happened to him.

Sleepy wrote:

Because the rapist left her perfectly mentally balanced. I think if anything, the poor girl finally has closure on that aspect of her life.

Of course not but the mother killing him brings back the memories and now has to fear her mother going to prison. The financial and emotional damage will effect her probablyt making things worse.

Sleepy wrote:

I can't imagine any parent ever feeling that it wasn't the right thing to do tbh. More than likely this woman will be placed in a mental hospital for a time but I'd be very surprised if she ever sees a day's jail time (unless for wanton damage of the restaraunt?) because quite frankly, she doesn't deserve to.

She will probably serve time because the spanish authorities can't have people doing this stuff. She put everybody at the bar at risk if she and killed a man in a horrific way. She will plead diminished responsibity but it will be hard to prove as she had to go off and get petrol go through the bar pour it on him light him, watch him and then go on the run. Not an instance of rage from a casual look at the facts given.

For all wanting them dead would you want your 14 child sentenced to death or life behind bars if the did that. Before people say my child wouldn't do that I doubt anybody thinks their child would either and it happens at all levels of life.

Ph3n0m wrote:

That is without question one of the most singularly retarded things I have ever read.

Insulting people with mental disabilities, OK I am seeing where you come from .

Ph3n0m wrote:

MorningStar - where do you buy your rose tinted glasses - as it seems that your perspective of the world is a lot more clouded then most people

I would be what is consider more educated on the situation and it would be you that has the limited view on life. I see that poverty trap and the situations children are brought up in and how it effects there decision making abilities and chances in life. You see scumbags and corpral punishment. It must be nice to see the world as black and white where nobody you ever know makes mistakes and have no responsibilty for the society around you.

Hobart

MorningStar wrote:

Actually there is a different psycho on the streets. The woman could have easily caused the death of other people in the bar.

How do you know that? It seemed she was quite deliberate in her actions and she has not been charged with endangering anybody else?

How do you know his question wasn't a genuine concern about his victim. He could have been remorsefull and the mother felt incensed and decided to kill him.

Now your just been a troll.

ixoy

MorningStar wrote:

How do you know his question wasn't a genuine concern about his victim. He could have been remorsefull and the mother felt incensed and decided to kill him.

You know when I talked about liberals defending them, I had you in mind... Now whilst in HappyFluffyCloudLand, the rapist has reformed and asked a sincere question in a thoughtless fashion, in reality do you really think his thought process went: "Ohh I wonder how that girl I viciously raped is? Hmm, how I do find out - oh diddums. Oh wait! Yay! Her mum is here - let's ask her. I'm sure she won't mind."...

I would be what is consider more educated on the situation and it would be you that has the limited view on life. I see that poverty trap and the situations children are brought up in and how it effects there decision making abilities and chances in life. You see scumbags and corpral punishment. It must be nice to see the world as black and white where nobody you ever know makes mistakes and have no responsibilty for the society around you.

Right then MorningStar - what are your views on the more disciplinarian model of boot camps that have been employed to considerable success in the US and which Britain is thinking about re-introducing? Attendess (we couldn't call them prisoners!) follow a strict, tolling, regime of exercise and education, where they're strictly regimented but get to learn. From what I recall it also has lessons in civics and what not, so the young offenders get the chance to try and see their crime. Apparently the subsequent re-offence rate is very low.

.. Do you favour that model then or is still too cruel?

Ph3n0m

MorningStar wrote:

Insulting people with mental disabilities, OK I am seeing where you come from .

Oh ffs - if thats your first part in replying to my opinion, then you are taking what I say too literally. If I had said moronic, imbecillic, idiotic or even stupid - would I still be insulting people with mental disabilities. And for you to infere you see where I am coming from, you have absolutely no clue where I am coming from - I just dont feel the need to mince my words.

MorningStar wrote:

I would be what is consider more educated on the situation and it would be you that has the limited view on life. I see that poverty trap and the situations children are brought up in and how it effects there decision making abilities and chances in life. You see scumbags and corpral punishment. It must be nice to see the world as black and white where nobody you ever know makes mistakes and have no responsibilty for the society around you.

I would seriously love to hear your qualifications and your seemingly exceptional education on these matters?

What happened has nothing to do with a poverty trap - these 4 people went out, in a stolen car, with weapons, intent on doing something malicious to someone.

If poverty trap is your excuse for every nasty thing done in today's society, then you are just as bad as the people that commit these heinous acts - they commit them, and people like you excuse them.

This has everything to do with people being evil minded bastards, as the world does have them, irrespective of where, how and when they were brought up.

I dont see the world as black and white - I do however have a more reaslitic view on it, then you do MorningStar, so you could say I see things in varying shades of gray. But I am not so befuddled as to be blind to the fact that not everyones crimes can be excused by "the poverty trap"

MorningStar

ixoy wrote:

Right then MorningStar - what are your views on the more disciplinarian model of boot camps that have been employed to considerable success in the US and which Britain is thinking about re-introducing?

.. Do you favour that model then or is still too cruel?

Very limited in it's application and effectiveness on many types of crimminals is not great. It is also relatively expensive and has resulted in a number of legal cases for prisoner abuse. I can also assure you I am not a libreal who thinks of fluffy clouds etc...
If it worked I would go with it but it is a limited model that can only be applied to certain cases.
I have never said anything excuses the behaviour. Not once go look. Effective remedies are what I am looking for. So far the solutions suggested here are death or other corpral punishment and prison tuime. I do take the moral high ground by saying violence is not the solution (as it currently doesn't happen it's not a liberal view) and the other costs too much. I want a cheap solution it's easy to rant about punishment but there is obviously a lack of thought on the subject here. The breeding grounds for these type of people needs to be eliminated to stop them appearing and the prisons have got to put out citizens not harder criminals. If that is liberal I'll take the title.
As for the three strikes model in the US it wouldn't work here. Prisons make money in the states due to cheap labour from the prisons. The governor can claim the votes of all prisoners so to have a smaller prison population does him no good. The streets may appear safer but people are living of the backs of others not far off slavery.

WizZard

Those 4 guys should have a lump hammer taken to their genitalia. In public. This would be a the most humane way of dealing with them and serve to put off future offenders.

WizZard

MorningStar wrote:

The breeding grounds for these type of people needs to be eliminated to stop them appearing and the prisons have got to put out citizens not harder criminals. If that is liberal I'll take the title.
People who commit these type of crimes should not be allowed to breed. I advocate neutering/castration.See here
As for the three strikes model in the US it wouldn't work here. Prisons make money in the states due to cheap labour from the prisons.
What's wtrong with that. Why shouldn't scum like these be put to work for their jail term. Instead of sitting pretty in a cushy cell.
The streets may appear safer but people are living of the backs of others not far off slavery.
The streets are safer. Period.

Have you even tried to put yourself in that young woman or young man's position? Who knows what either of them are going through?
I know if that had happened to me I would not want to continue with life - but by God I would see proper justice done to those criminals before I was finished on this Earth.

MorningStar

WizZard wrote:

Have you even tried to put yourself in that young woman or young man's position?

Now how bright is that? If peolpe run around calling me a liberal because of my soft views do you think I haven't considered the the victims. You obviously haven't read the whole thread where i explained violent punishment can make it worse on the victim. Illistrated more so with the spanish case posted.
Your Castration argument is a little limited. Only certain types of rapists are treated with chemical castration and it has side effects that I am sure the articles don't point out. It has a limited success and good for some but people are suggesting surgical removal here. I would advocate chemical castration in some cases but certainly not on a 14.
Making money off the prison population would require huge law changes and it wouldn't surprise me if it would require a change in the constition. It also puts many companies out of business due to cheap labour. I have no problem with them working but we are effectively talking slavery.
Forgetting that the three strikes rule has huge social issues. Combine that with asbos that means somebody can end up in prison for singing in your bath three times. :eek:

Garibaldi

"I want a cheap solution it's easy to rant about punishment but there is lack of thought on the subject here. The breeding grounds for these type of people needs to be eliminated to stop them appearing and the prisons have got to put out citizens not harder criminals."

Indeed there is. I don't recall seeing any proposals being put forward regarding how these "liberal" solutions would be implemented, or even any precision about what form they would take. So far, it all seems to consist of volumes of vague wish lists. If anyone came up with something workable and effective, I'd love to hear it. It's all very well to shoot down anyone advocating capital punishment, but would it not, for the moment at least, be more effective than the current system of doing virtually nothing other than churning out these harder criminals?

MorningStar

Garibaldi wrote:

If anyone came up with something workable and effective, I'd love to hear it. It's all very well to shoot down anyone advocating capital punishment, but would it not, for the moment at least, be more effective than the current system of doing virtually nothing other than churning out these harder criminals?

Give me a couple of million and aboput 5 years and I might be able to come up with a working model. Of course it will require a lot a law changes etc. :rolleyes:
The suggestion that the system is so borken so we make it more broken and unaffordable as this will solve the problem is somewhat limited. Irish prison and child services do try and rehabilitate people but they need funding. Due to popular views such as kill them and beat them it is next to impossible to secure funding for prsion services to provide rehabilitation. So effectively the people who think corpral punishment would work are actually the reason it won't change.

Girl.1

It's sick to think that 14 to 18 year olds can do this and ruin someones life.
If this 14 year old is so easly lead at this age imagine what he'll be doing at 20 probaly misleading other 14 year old's, cos he can advise them it's OK
cos your too young to understand what your doing.

Reading about this is disturbing can't imagine whay life would be like if it happened,

These boy's all have mothers and sisters , so how could they not realise what they were doin??

Sleepy

MorningStar wrote:

Actually there is a different psycho on the streets. The woman could have easily caused the death of other people in the bar. I very much doubt any parents would like to think there child was burnt to death.

If any child I reared turned out to be a vicious rapist I honestly wouldn't deny another parent the right to kill them.

How do you know his question wasn't a genuine concern about his victim. He could have been remorsefull and the mother felt incensed and decided to kill him.

Are you trolling? Seriously?

The burden of having her mother in prison for something that happeneed to her.

The woman will never see a day in prison. See the infamous Bernhard Goetz case (which was the tipping point in lowering crime in New York's underground) for an idea of what happens these cases in court.

Maybe she is afraid of her mother becsue she set a man on fire.

That's absurd. I can just as easily say that she feels more loved and protected by her parents because her mother's prepared to kill for her. I can't prove it but my hypothesis sounds more plausible than yours.

Pluse the statement says she regrets what happened to him.

Never heard of a lawyer lying in public to build credibility for a 'temporary insanity' diminished responsibility case?

Of course not but the mother killing him brings back the memories and now has to fear her mother going to prison. The financial and emotional damage will effect her probablyt making things worse.

Because I'm sure she'd forgotten all about her traumatic ordeal :rolleyes: And what financial damage? You're in no way qualified to say that this has caused the family financial problems.

She will probably serve time because the spanish authorities can't have people doing this stuff. She put everybody at the bar at risk if she and killed a man in a horrific way. She will plead diminished responsibity but it will be hard to prove as she had to go off and get petrol go through the bar pour it on him light him, watch him and then go on the run. Not an instance of rage from a casual look at the facts given.

Again, look at the Goetz case or any of millions like it. Society sides with those that defend it's children or themselves, not with the criminals.

For all wanting them dead would you want your 14 child sentenced to death or life behind bars if the did that. Before people say my child wouldn't do that I doubt anybody thinks their child would either and it happens at all levels of life.

Yes, I would. If I or any of my offspring were a danger to society I would prefer that we be removed from it.

I would be what is consider more educated on the situation and it would be you that has the limited view on life. I see that poverty trap and the situations children are brought up in and how it effects there decision making abilities and chances in life. You see scumbags and corpral punishment. It must be nice to see the world as black and white where nobody you ever know makes mistakes and have no responsibilty for the society around you.

An intellectual view? Certainly. An educated one? Maybe. An ideollogical view? sure. A realistic view? not a chance.

Poverty is no excuse for crime (outside of the classic example of stealing food to feed yourself or your children but we live in the western world and have welfare programs to invalidate that argument).

Where you see all people as equal, I see naieveté. Well-meaning naieveté, but naieveté nonetheless. Some people are of no use to society. Some people are cancerous, evil beings (regardless of their upbringing). These people need to be kept away from the rest of society. If they could be reformed that'd be great but the fact is, it's just too damn expensive in terms of money, lives and repeat crime levels to be bothered.

The difference between us is that I'm prepared to place more emphasis on the rights of the law-abiding to their lives than on the criminals to theirs. A criminal's life is worth less than an innocent persons. It's a proveable economic fact. From a moral perspective, the survival of the majority outweigh's the survival of the few that want to damage the survival of the rest.

zachler

Getting back to the original case in Limerick, there's an interesting overview and some background here: http://aliveinlimerick.blogspot.com/2005/06/what-kind-of-people.html

ionapaul

Interesting indeed. Rehabilitation is impossible for at least 3 of the rapists (the ones with the multiple convictions). Two committed the awful crim while out on temporarily release / bail! Forget 3 strikes and you're out, maybe Ivana and the bleeding hearts could accept 30 strikes and you're out...or are their crimes really society's failings, and therefore our fault and not the individuals!

The 3 oldest should never be allowed out of prison again for law-abiding society's sake. But they'll be back on the streets in a few years, no doubt spawning a few sprogs of their own, neglecting them and perhaps starting the cycle again!

MorningStar

Sleepy wrote:

If any child I reared turned out to be a vicious rapist I honestly wouldn't deny another parent the right to kill them.

I don't have kids but if you do I pity them and your inability to forgive your own flesh and blood

Sleepy wrote:

Are you trolling? Seriously? .

No But you seem to have made up your mind from one article printed on this forum. Anychnace there are other details you are unaware of. I am open to possibilities and not a close minded person who thinks mutalation and death are the cure for social problems.

Sleepy wrote:

The woman will never see a day in prison. See the infamous Bernhard Goetz case (which was the tipping point in lowering crime in New York's underground) for an idea of what happens these cases in court.

The American judicial system is based on the british system as are many other countries. The Spanish system as far as I know is pretty unique so you might just get a different result. You can't see the future and don't have a lot of facts

Sleepy wrote:

That's absurd. I can just as easily say that she feels more loved and protected by her parents because her mother's prepared to kill for her. I can't prove it but my hypothesis sounds more plausible than yours.

I have not once dismissed you comments in this manner so treat me and my comments with more respect than that. My view is based on the pyschology I studied what is your view based on?

Sleepy wrote:

Never heard of a lawyer lying in public to build credibility for a 'temporary insanity' diminished responsibility case?

Your assumptions are very picky and don't appears to be balanced and reasonable. THe statement was from the girl and father not the mother so I fail to see how that will help the mother in a temporary insanity plea.

Sleepy wrote:

Because I'm sure she'd forgotten all about her traumatic ordeal :rolleyes: And what financial damage? You're in no way qualified to say that this has caused the family financial problems.

Have you any idea what legal fees are like? It's a financial nightmare for practically everyone, it is extremely unlikely that any family wouldn't suffer financially. If you don't think this will make things worse for the girl I really think you lack a fundamental understanding of people. I never suggested she had gotten over it but any noraml person would suffer more if there mother was later responsible

Sleepy wrote:

Again, look at the Goetz case or any of millions like it. Society sides with those that defend it's children or themselves, not with the criminals.

You will find that some of these people do go to jail. THere is certainly a risk she goes to prison.


Yes, I would. If I or any of my offspring were a danger to society I would prefer that we be removed from it.


An intellectual view? Certainly. An educated one? Maybe. An ideollogical view? sure. A realistic view? not a chance.

Sleepy wrote:

Poverty is no excuse for crime

Listen closely I never said it was not once. You are assuming that is my view and not paying attention to what I actually say.

Sleepy wrote:

Where you see all people as equal,

Listen again, that is the exact opposite of my view it doesn't even match what you have already said about my view. I believe that a bad back ground puts you at a disadvantage (not equal). If some people are just evil do you think they naturally fall in to poorer areas? Is it good people can just afford to get out of bad areas? Explain your view of evil, every criminal evil? My views aren't based on some mythical creation of evil.

Sleepy wrote:

The difference between us is that I'm prepared to place more emphasis on the rights of the law-abiding to their lives than on the criminals to theirs. A criminal's life is worth less than an innocent persons. It's a proveable economic fact. From a moral perspective, the survival of the majority outweigh's the survival of the few that want to damage the survival of the rest.

I have not intentionally decided what somebody elses views are without knowing them very very well. You appear to be a very ill informed and uneducted on the subjects you are talking about. This especilly comes true when talking about my views. My emphasis is on society and what is just and fair to all. Your last line is a really weird statement it's like a really bad mangling of survival of the fittist mixed with the needs of the one out weights the needs of the many. Society is a chain that is as strong as it's weakest link .

Ph3n0m

My view is based on the pyschology I studied

sorry I just noticed you posted this earlier

I studied some psychology and read reports on experiments carried out in the 50's in the US

If that is the extent of your knowledge, then you are in a no better position to comment on this then I am.

MorningStar

Ph3n0m wrote:

And yet I am still waiting to hear about your qualifications and education that allegedly sees you in a better position to comment on such acts then myself

I am sticking to with known psychology and studies done on prison populations. My qualifications would probably mean nothing to you unless it said psychology while it was only part of my studies. I also educated myself on criminolgy to an extent for personal reasons. I'll bow to a great view it is based on anything other than any wild opinion.
I am waiting for you to explain what your views are based on and how much thought have you really put into the subject.

Ph3n0m

MorningStar wrote:

I am sticking to with known psychology and studies done on prison populations. My qualifications would probably mean nothing to you unless it said psychology while it was only part of my studies. I also educated myself on criminolgy to an extent for personal reasons. I'll bow to a great view it is based on anything other than any wild opinion.
I am waiting for you to explain what your views are based on and how much thought have you really put into the subject.

Jesus, MorningStar for someone who has liberal views, you are a downright arrogant person - "your qualifications would mean nothing to me" - ouch, why not come right out and call me an ill-educated troll?

Hmmm my views/opinions are based primarily on the following

1) My own sense of morality, and the wonderful "what if" clause
2) My own personal study of criminal psychology by reading books and papers written by the following people: Paul Britton, Robert K. Ressler, Colin Wilson, Brian Masters, John Douglas to name but a few
3) My continuing study of psychology and criminal psychology

If you care to notice, while being the OP of the article, I have to give an indication on what I think of the scentences and what should be done with the convicted

MorningStar

Ph3n0m wrote:

Jesus, MorningStar for someone who has liberal views, you are a downright arrogant person - "your qualifications would mean nothing to me" - ouch, why not come right out and call me an ill-educated troll?

Hmmm my views/opinions are based primarily on the following

1) My own sense of morality, and the wonderful "what if" clause
2) My own personal study of criminal psychology by reading books and papers written by the following people: Paul Britton, Robert K. Ressler, Colin Wilson, Brian Masters, John Douglas to name but a few
3) My continuing study of psychology and criminal psychology

If you care to notice, while being the OP of the article, I have to give an indication on what I think of the scentences and what should be done with the convicted

Sorry it wasn't meant that way. People never believe me when I explain why and where I studied pyschology. It would mean nothing to you for that reason not because you wouldn't understand.
It's a bit hard for me to believe somebody who has studied this stuff actually uses the term retarded as an insult and suggests a 14 boy is fully accountable for their actions. Where as my precieved insult to you was not meant that way yours to me calling me "retard" was. The more I think about it I doubt you really did study these issues but maybe you disagreed with everything you studied.
I am also not a liberal. If beating them stopped the crime I would go with it but as you know from yor studies it makes things worse when brought into contact with a liberal environment that we live in.

Ph3n0m

MorningStar wrote:

Sorry it wasn't meant that way. People never believe me when I explain why and where I studied pyschology. It would mean nothing to you for that reason not because you wouldn't understand.
It's a bit hard for me to believe somebody who has studied this stuff actually uses the term retarded as an insult and suggests a 14 boy is fully accountable for their actions. Where as my precieved insult to you was not meant that way yours to me calling me "retard" was. The more I think about it I doubt you really did study these issues but maybe you disagreed with everything you studied.
I am also not a liberal. If beating them stopped the crime I would go with it but as you know from yor studies it makes things worse when brought into contact with a liberal environment that we live in.

a) As previously said I dont mince my words - I have a tendency to speak from the heart and not from PC dictionary

b) the term retarded was not a knock on your intelligence at all, it was my feeling towards the statement in general. Again as previously mentioned, I could have used any number of terms, each one would have led you back to attacking me for using words that "belittle" those with learning difficulties - which I wasnt

c)You can choose to believe or not believe if I have read works by any of the people I have mentioned - that is your choice - I know what I have done, studied and read and I answered your previous question thusly.

d) I never said "14 boy is fully accountable for their actions." - I said or atleast implied they are full aware of their actions and do know right from wrong - simple as that

zenith

Cool it in here, please. Warning duly given.

Personal abuse will not be tolerated. Moderate your language.

zachler

Well, to be a little less abstract about it, I think the crucial thing is to get at the young offenders when they're still breaking windows or shop-lifting. By the time they've graduated to gang-raping someone, the chances of getting them back on the straight and narrow must be pretty marginal.

I read that the Probation Service has a budget that's just a fraction of Prison Officers' overtime bill. This is madness. Increasing their budget so they can deal early and comprehensively with young offenders would not only have real social cost benfits but actual monetary rewards too - its bloody expensive keeping someone locked up for years and years.

Sorry I can't be more intellectual than that guys. ;-)

Sleepy

MorningStar wrote:

I don't have kids but if you do I pity them and your inability to forgive your own flesh and blood

Not all actions are forgiveable. I can forgive things that don't stem from malice e.g. a manslaughter through drunk driving, joyriding etc. Gang rape doesn't really fall into this classification imho.

No But you seem to have made up your mind from one article printed on this forum. Anychnace there are other details you are unaware of. I am open to possibilities and not a close minded person who thinks mutalation and death are the cure for social problems.

I'm not of the opinion that mutilation is a cure for anything. Death as a punishment, I lean towards because of sheer frustration. Some people simply cannot be rehabilitated, it costs society a fortune to imprison them for life and in that situation, I believe a bullet to be an extremely efficient solution.

The American judicial system is based on the british system as are many other countries. The Spanish system as far as I know is pretty unique so you might just get a different result. You can't see the future and don't have a lot of facts

A fair point, I am assuming trial by jury. A quick Google hasn't returned much on their legal system, nor has wikipedia and given that I'm in work, I haven't time to check into it further but given the assumption of trial by jury I'd see a conviction to be very unlikely.

I have not once dismissed you comments in this manner so treat me and my comments with more respect than that. My view is based on the pyschology I studied what is your view based on?

Economics, My own Moral Compass and Common Sense.

Your assumptions are very picky and don't appears to be balanced and reasonable. THe statement was from the girl and father not the mother so I fail to see how that will help the mother in a temporary insanity plea.

Have you any idea what legal fees are like? It's a financial nightmare for practically everyone, it is extremely unlikely that any family wouldn't suffer financially. If you don't think this will make things worse for the girl I really think you lack a fundamental understanding of people. I never suggested she had gotten over it but any noraml person would suffer more if there mother was later responsible

Kettle, you're black. My point was that your analysis of the article was just as picky.

You will find that some of these people do go to jail. THere is certainly a risk she goes to prison.

And in my opinion, an unjust one.

Listen closely I never said it was not once. You are assuming that is my view and not paying attention to what I actually say.

Listen again, that is the exact opposite of my view it doesn't even match what you have already said about my view. I believe that a bad back ground puts you at a disadvantage (not equal). If some people are just evil do you think they naturally fall in to poorer areas? Is it good people can just afford to get out of bad areas? Explain your view of evil, every criminal evil? My views aren't based on some mythical creation of evil.

The difference is, you seem to espouse that such a "bad background" almost excuses this behaviour. See earlier in my post for the closest I can come to describing evil. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes we all hurt others. To me, it's repeated, intentional cause of this hurt that makes someone a "bad person".

I have not intentionally decided what somebody elses views are without knowing them very very well. You appear to be a very ill informed and uneducted on the subjects you are talking about. This especilly comes true when talking about my views. My emphasis is on society and what is just and fair to all. Your last line is a really weird statement it's like a really bad mangling of survival of the fittist mixed with the needs of the one out weights the needs of the many. Society is a chain that is as strong as it's weakest link.

Let me clarify my last point for you then. Society's duty is to maximise it's benefits for all. However, when someone continuously acts in a damaging manner towards the rest of that society they lose the right to it's protection. They are dangerous to that society and, as such, it is that society's duty to eliminate the threat they pose towards it's members. Whether that be through imprisonment, killing them or some wonder-drug that can miraculously turn them into upstanding members of the community. Unfortunately, psychology is an inexact science (at best) and has light-years to go before it can claim to be able to rehabilitate the truly criminal element of society (i.e. the re-offenders).

I'm not suggesting we instantly lock people away for life or kill them because they've broken the law. We do, however, have to stop letting the unreformed criminals to leave prison in anything other than a coffin.