Parliamentary Questions

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

To be more honest, you want that to be the case.


If you want to see what it's like when it's not the case, google for some accounts of lynchings in Alabama. If you can stomach them. That line between self-defence in extremis and "learning him good" is one that a society really wants to pay attention to...

Yeah, but not quite as bad as seeing an 80 year old oap tied to a chair, battered and having their dog kicked to death in front of them so they reveal where they have the money hidden.

The usual ethnic minority at work.

1349

Sparks wrote: »

. (And for the record, I rather like that. It implies a society where your fellow man is not so much of a threat that you need a firearm for this kind of thing, because I've yet to meet a sensible person who had to carry a firearm for self-defence who preferred that state over not having to).

You wouldn't happen to live in a leafy suburb, with a decent police response time, would you?

1349

gunny123 wrote: »

Yeah, but not quite as bad as seeing an 80 year old oap tied to a chair, battered and having their dog kicked to death in front of them so they reveal where they have the money hidden.

There are many people who would disagree with you. They think that the OAP in your case should take the pain and wait for the Guards to arrive (protecting people is their 'function'!), and that the scumbags who beat him should be rehabilitated, not punished.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

Yeah, but not quite as bad as seeing an 80 year old oap tied to a chair, battered and having their dog kicked to death in front of them so they reveal where they have the money hidden.

The usual ethnic minority at work.

Gunny, you honestly could not have posted a more ironic post there if you had actually tried.

Sparks

1349 wrote: »

You wouldn't happen to live in a leafy suburb, with a decent police response time, would you?

Nope. They closed down my local station a while ago.

gunny123

Whatever. If a system isn't working, people get tired of it, and then things get out of control. The courts here are a sick joke, handing out suspended sentences for quite often violent crimes.
Ask any garda, moral on the floor.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

Whatever.

It's a bloody long way from forever.

Ask any garda, moral on the floor.

Would they cite the courts or the management team?

gunny123

Whats forever ?

The courts i would think. You catch a suspect, interview witnesses, make a case, go to court, get a conviction and the judge hands down a suspended sentence. That has to be disheartening.

Sparks

Funny how I've heard the opposite - the whole McCabe thing apparently not being well received, at least by the few I know.

Grizzly 45

.243 wrote: »

and on our next course "how to be proficient in chasing sumbags out of your town"

Better title."Hunting the most dangerous game on the planet.In your own country.

RE arms for self-defence,I would point out that certain of our "elites" and officialdom such as in CAB, when they were first founded as well as others in certain circumstances, have been offered and have been issued handguns for self-protection by ranks from Cheif Super upwards in this state since its foundation.So there is a precedent there, and it could be argued, why are some politicians or bureaucrats life more important than yours or your families lives being threatened by local gurriers?

So we do have castle doctrine here in Ireland, but are denied the swords, shields, polearms and boiling oil to repel invaders and must use whatever farm implements is to hand to fight the enemy??

Also, with our large amount of emigrants from the Continent these days, who do bring with them interesting things like pepper spray, flick knives, airguns and Xbows.Where they are perfectly legal, depending on the country, as non-firearms or not prohibited weaponry.Has there been anyone of them jailed for possession of a prohibited weapon in Ireland?

Grizzly 45

1349 wrote: »

There are many people who would disagree with you. They think that the OAP in your case should take the pain and wait for the Guards to arrive (protecting people is their 'function'!), and that the scumbags who beat him should be rehabilitated, not punished.

Imagine their shock when they are told ,usually by lawyers, [and even some senior Gardai have to be reminded of the minor fact] that "to protect and serve" does NOT apply to civilians! A police forces job is to uphold the law and preserve the peace of a society.
This has been proven ad nauseum all over the Western world in courts.Plus as any copper worth his pay will tell you ,they are a reactive force,IOW they arrive when it is all over in 95%of the time.To mark off the crime scene and chalk out the bodies and keep the crowds back.The adage when seconds count....

Sparks

The adage when seconds count....

Grizzly, could you stop pretending than an 80-year-old OAP is going to go all Jason Bourne on a burglar?
Buy them a better door and burglar alarm. The less-than-five-percent of burglars that aren't opportunistic and going for a forgotten open door or window are generally going to target people with more valuable stuff than an OAP anyway.

Walter Mittys Brother

Sparks wrote: »

...........The less-than-five-percent of burglars that aren't opportunistic and going for a forgotten open door or window are generally going to target people with more valuable stuff than an OAP anyway.

Meanwhile, out here in the real world ................

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Grizzly, could you stop pretending than an 80-year-old OAP is going to go all Jason Bourne on a burglar?

I'll leave this.just.here.;)
https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/238183/criminals-flee-as-limerick-man-93-fires-shotgun.html

Sparks

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Meanwhile, out here in the real world ................

...where the rest of us live with our closed-down garda stations and our uptick in burglaries, you mean?

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks wrote: »

Grizzly, could you stop pretending than an 80-year-old OAP is going to go all Jason Bourne on a burglar?

I'll leave this.just.here.;)
https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/238183/criminals-flee-as-limerick-man-93-fires-shotgun.html

we are always on the wrong end of this debate and I cant help thinking all our security requirements are there to trip us up. The problem of anyone god forbid being put into a situation where they even contemplate using a firearm is shocking and I for one would not like to bet who would come out the better.

The law is stacked against us, the gun is meant to be in a safe, if its not in the safe your in trouble, the shells are meant to be stored separately to the gun, again if there is easy access then we are in trouble. The fact the criminal (Lets pretend) gives you warning and you go and get the said gun and the said cartridges, there is intent and a mens rea. Is it proportionate using a gun when the **** head opposite you has a crowbar.....the other thing is remember for ****s sake dont reload again the fact you reloaded shows intent.

I know an ex garda and a farmer he always says be careful that the day you take a gun out to defend your house/property you dont find it taken off you and stuck up your arse. He has his gun locked away but has a nice big pickaxe handle hand to the door.

Cass

Folks, we're gonna stick a pin in it right there.

We have wandered way off the beaten path. We have gone from "what if" to "how to" and are now firmly in RTKBA discussion which is prohibited on the forum.

Sparks

Tuesday, 6 March 2018

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)

100. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to introduce amendments to SI 646/2017 in view of the concerns of members of an association (details supplied) with the time lock aspect of this law and the effects on its members; if the association will be provided representation at the firearms consultative panel; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10749/18]

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I wish to advise the Deputy that Statutory Instrument 646 of 2017, entitled Firearms (Storage of Firearms and Ammunition by Firearms Dealers) Regulations 2017, was recently signed into law by me and has recently been circulated to firearms dealers.

These Regulations give effect to minimum standards for the safe and secure storage of firearms and ammunition in the premises of firearms dealers. They recognise that firearms dealers are entitled to be in possession of large quantities of firearms but require them to conduct business from a premises that has been constructed to a high standard. The Regulations also recognise the different categories of firearms dealers and scales the requirements depending on the quantities of ammunition and firearms being stored. For example, the time lock requirement does not apply to those dealers who deal only in small quantities of ammunition.

The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers. The inclusion of the requirement for time locks was originally suggested by this sub-group to act as a significant deterrent and discouragement to criminal attack. The Commissioner of An Garda Síochána has endorsed the security measures contained in this Regulation and has advised that the inclusion of a requirement for a time-lock on the strong room door will deter criminal activity and require the use of greater resources by any person attempting to access firearms or ammunition illegally. Similar security measures have been applied successfully elsewhere, e.g. in banks, pharmacies and the jewellery sector.

In order to minimise the financial impact, a lead-in time of twelve months for compliance has been included in the Regulation in order to permit dealers sufficient time to comply with the legislation.

I wish to advise the Deputy that I have no plans to amend these regulations which have been introduced as a public safety measure.

Finally, I am currently reviewing membership of the Firearms Consultative Panel and contact will be made in the near future with groups who have previously communicated with the Department on this matter.

Sparks

Thursday, 8 March 2018

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
230. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality the level of consultation undertaken to satisfy himself regarding the effectiveness of SI 646 regarding the storage of firearms; if his attention has been drawn to concerns expressed by responsible dealers in relation to unintended consequences from this measure and if he is willing to postpone implementation pending meeting the groups concerned; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11680/18]

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I wish to advise the Deputy that Statutory Instrument 646 of 2017, entitled Firearms (Storage of Firearms and Ammunition by Firearms Dealers) Regulations 2017, was recently signed into law by me and has recently been circulated to firearms dealers.

These Regulations give effect to minimum standards for the safe and secure storage of firearms and ammunition in the premises of firearms dealers. They recognise that firearms dealers are entitled to be in possession of large quantities of firearms but require them to conduct business from a premises that has been constructed to a high standard. The Regulations also recognise the different categories of firearms dealers and scales the requirements depending on the quantities of ammunition and firearms being stored. For example, a time lock requirement does not apply to those dealers who deal only in small quantities of ammunition.

The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers as well as An Garda Síochána.

Concerns have been raised by some firearms dealers, particularly in relation to the time lock requirement. The inclusion of the requirement for time locks was originally suggested by the above mentioned sub-group to act as a significant deterrent and discouragement to criminal attack. The Commissioner of An Garda Síochána has endorsed the security measures contained in this Regulation and has advised that the inclusion of a requirement for a time-lock on the strong room door will deter criminal activity and require the use of greater resources by any person attempting to access firearms or ammunition illegally. Similar security measures have been applied successfully elsewhere, e.g. in banks, pharmacies and the jewellery sector.

In order to minimise the financial impact, a lead-in time of twelve months for compliance has been included in the Regulation in order to permit dealers sufficient time to comply with the legislation.

I have no plans to amend or postpone these regulations which have been introduced as a public safety measure.

gunny123

"The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers as well as An Garda Síochána".


I wonder who that could have been :rolleyes:

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

"The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers as well as An Garda Síochána".


I wonder who that could have been :rolleyes:

And according to that statement, the time locks were actually proposed by the FCP sub-group.

Nekarsulm

gunny123 wrote: »

"The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers as well as An Garda Síochána".


I wonder who that could have been :rolleyes:

The list of possible suspects is short ......

gunny123

Why is that complete communist Daly asking that question in the first place ?

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

Why is that complete communist Daly asking that question in the first place ?

Obviously some dealer(s) in her constituency has 'wore' the ear off her giving out about the new regulations.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

Why is that complete communist Daly asking that question in the first place ?

Because it's a TD's job to ask PQs if a constituent asks them to...

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

Because it's a TD's job to ask PQs if a constituent asks them to...

Yeah, i know that, but i doubt she would be very supportive of people owning firearms.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

Yeah, i know that, but i doubt she would be very supportive of people owning firearms.

Not sure why. If anything, I'd expect her to find common ground given that there have been areas where we feel that the Gardai have reported inaccurate statistics and conclusions about us to the media...

ayagerard

gunny123 wrote: »

"The Regulations were developed following consultation with a sub-group of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) consisting of registered firearms dealers as well as An Garda Síochána".


I wonder who that could have been :rolleyes:

i wonder if the minister was asked how many members were in the subgroup how many fingers would he rise and why the whole groupe hasn't the same say or wasn't asked or allowed make their input says all we need to know about democracy and politix ,who you know and how well you know them , all the safety with the storage is gone to their heads , what other country are insisting on these penalising regulations ,have we more gun & ammo theft, in our little country than say the uk or france ???
do they honestly think the common criminal has interest in a 12 lb bull barrel or trying to flog a slab of 12g cats to make a living or will a timelock will keep out a man that wants in i think not , will the guards attend immediately if the alarm goes off or wait for the rapid response some 70 miles away ???? my question is who does this crap benefit financially as this is putting smaller dealers out of business

gunny123

ayagerard wrote: »

i wonder if the minister was asked how many members were in the subgroup how many fingers would he rise and why the whole groupe hasn't the same say or wasn't asked or allowed make their input says all we need to know about democracy and politix ,who you know and how well you know them , all the safety with the storage is gone to their heads , what other country are insisting on these penalising regulations ,have we more gun & ammo theft, in our little country than say the uk or france ???
do they honestly think the common criminal has interest in a 12 lb bull barrel or trying to flog a slab of 12g cats to make a living or will a timelock will keep out a man that wants in i think not , will the guards attend immediately if the alarm goes off or wait for the rapid response some 70 miles away ???? my question is who does this crap benefit financially as this is putting smaller dealers out of business

You answered your own question there, it gets rid of the lads dealing from garages and spare rooms. But i wonder how many of the larger dealers support this or even knew it had been put to the minister ?

Cass

I've spoken to a number of dealers and none of them were asked or consulted on this. So far the prevailing answer i'm getting is only the "dealers" on the so called coalition were consulted, but of course i have not spoken to all RFDs and i cannot say if more RFDs were consulted or not. However if they were the only ones consulted that means the two that are member of the so called coalition were the only ones consulted and they [the so called coalition] are the ones that brought other gems such as:

• Banning semi auto rifles
• Banning 22lr pistols
• Time lock safes for everyone
• Ballistic testing
• Ban on night time shooting
• Graduated licenses

And most recently the diabolical attempt to destroy the FCP with baseless accusations of imagined wrong doings by the NARGC.