Parliamentary Questions

Sparks

Wednesday, 4 October 2017

Sean Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
122. To ask the Tiste and Minister for Justice and Equality the number and type of firearms, ammunition and related items reported stolen or lost in each of the years 2014 to 2016; and the reason these figures were excluded from the 2015 and 2016 annual reviews of the operation of the Firearms Acts. [42114/17]

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I have asked the Garda Commissioner for report on this matter and I will write to the Deputy as soon as it becomes available.

Chiparus

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Was there not a story floating around that a number of NPWS firearms had gone AWOL (along with some from Garda and Army stores)?

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-03-07a.298&s=rifle#g303

Sparks

Thursday, 16 November 2017

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
129. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality the membership of the firearms consultative panel; the reason that a representative organisation (details supplied) is not a member; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48513/17]

Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)

The re-establishment of the Firearms Consultative Panel (FCP) was part of a package of measures which the previous Minister announced in September 2015 to address both immediate and long term issues in relation to firearms licensing. It is important to have the views of a broad range of interests represented on the panel. At the same time, it is necessary to strike a balance and not allow this panel to expand to the point where the numbers hamper progress being made. The membership of this panel is made up of the following organisations:
- Sports Coalition
- National Association of Regional Game Councils
- Target Shooting Ireland
- National Rifle Association of Ireland
- Irish Sports Council
- National Parks & Wildlife Service
- Wild Deer Association
- Irish Deer Society
- Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association
- Countryside Alliance
- Irish Farmers' Association
- National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs
- An Garda Síochána

Officials from my Department met with the organisation in question in July of this year to discuss matters of concern to them, including matters relevant to firearms dealers. The Department advised that membership of the FCP was at maximum capacity and that there was little benefit to be gained from duplicating representatives of firearms dealers on the group. In addition, other sectors might well respond by also seeking increased representation, making the whole process unmanageable. In this regard it should be noted there are currently 4 firearms dealers on the group.

ezra_

We seem to have missed this one:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-09-11a.1878&s=HCAP#g1879.q

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
692. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht her plans to introduce a hunter competence assessment programme, HCAP; the details regarding same; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [37525/17]

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

My Department grants some 4,600 licences annually to hunt deer during the Open Season which is the period during which deer can be legally shot under licence. The Open Season for deer operates generally from 1 September to 28 February, depending on the species and gender of deer.
In March 2015 myDepartment along with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine published the report Deer Management in Ireland – A Framework for Action which includespolicy recommendations relating to deer conservation and management that could be pursued by both Departments and stakeholders. An Irish Deer Management Forum was established to implement the various actions listed in the Report. The Forum itself comprises representatives from the main stakeholder areas such as landowners, forestry, hunting and conservation organisations as well as representatives from both Departments.
The Forum has issued a number of recommendations since its establishment including a recommendation that mandatory certification of deer hunters should be introduced on a phased basis over a five year period from 1stJanuary 2018 for existing licensed deer hunters. In order to gauge the extent of current accreditation amongst hunters, my Department amended the current deer hunting application form to obtain this information which is currently being examined by my Department. In this year’s deer hunting application form guidance notes, deer hunters were informed of the Deer Management Forum’s proposal in relation to certification.

wirehairmax

Sparks wrote: »

Thursday, 16 November 2017

They could drop the sports Coalition to make room for somebody else as they don’t represent anybody except their own interests

Grizzly 45

WADI and IDS is basically one and the same and repersenting one aspect.So one could go there too.

Sparks

Tuesday, 16 January 2018

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
1937. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht when section 36 of the Wildlife (Amendment) Act 2000 will be commenced; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [1646/18]

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)

Section 36 provides for licensing of certain hunting activities on the part of commercial shoot operators. There are no immediate plans to commence this section but the matter is kept under on-going review.

Cass

Possibly a stupid question but if that section has not been commenced then does that mean that no licenses/authorisations have been granted for people to run commercial shoots? (i assume that includes driven shoots, deer stalking holidays, etc.)

Sparks

Well, not under that section anyway; I don't know the wildlife acts well enough to know if there are other sections that could be used for that.

Grizzly 45

At the moment, it looks like another "free house aisey money!" situation with commercial shoots going by that.

berettaman

wirehairmax wrote: »

They could drop the sports Coalition to make room for somebody else as they don’t represent anybody except their own interests

Now you are talking. When you look back at previously parlimentary questions along the lines of "How many S.C. members will form part of the FCP?"

As if they had any kind of mandate..the cheek. like asking how many members of Ballybeag united will be on the next irish team.

How long does it take for the PDB to cop on to this fac when it has been pointed out to them that the emperor has no clothes?

It was even pointed out at the FCP meetings itself. :rolleyes:

cavan shooter

If as I have been told that even the ICTSA have walked away and the fisherman dudes are aaying nothing to do with me and only one dealer in the so called dealer group of the SC. If the Politicians are still giving then credence. ...it's going to be very embarrassing when the (SC) discover that they represent no one.

gunny123

cavan shooter wrote: »

only one dealer in the so called dealer group of the SC.

If that dealer is the one i am thinking of, eg the Wexford guy who caused all this in the first place, i have been told he is no longer dealing. So we have a dealer who is not a dealer, representing no dealers apart from himself, but he is not a dealer............

It like something out of Monty Python or Hancocks half-hour :rolleyes:

Nekarsulm

Is Sean Gilliland still on the SC panel?

He was back in 2015, but listed as a Range Operator at the time, rather than a Firearms Dealer.

Sparks

Thursday, 1 February 2018

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
351. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht the reason for the delay in processing applications for shooting deer; the reason they are issued for a short length of time (details supplied); and if she will make a statement on the matter. [5224/18]

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)

Wild deer in the State are protected under the Wildlife Acts. There is an annual open season during which deer can be legally shot under licence. The open season for deer operates generally from 1 September to the last day of February, depending on the species and gender of deer. My Department has granted over 5,000 deer hunting licences for the current deer hunting season. Licences are issued for an annual period with all licences expiring on 31 July, 2018.

Control of deer on private property is the responsibility of landowners who may apply to my Department for a permission under section 42 of the Wildlife Acts to cull deer where this is necessary outside the annual open seasons. These permissions offer a facility whereby a person can obtain a permit, on a case by case basis, to prevent serious damage caused by individual deer on specific lands. Permissions are only issued where there is evidence of such damage.

My Department has granted a number of Section 42 permits in recent years to the facility in question in the area in question to control deer. I am not aware of undue delay in the processing of these applications and there is no application outstanding at present from the facility referenced by the Deputy.

Cass

I assume he is looking for deer to b shot year round? I wouldn't call the season short at 6 months, and while last season there seemed to be a delay, this year they were on the ball.

To me it seems redundant, but you have to wonder his motives.

Nekarsulm

Possibly someone in his constituency was bending his ear about a licencing issue, and HR went with a question, perhaps without researching the original "story" properly.

Sparks

Tuesday, 27 February 2018

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)

320. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to amend legislation to allow for persons to hold pepper spray or an electroshock weapon in their own homes for the purposes of self defence in view of recent reports that members of An Garda Síochána have used pepper spray more than 500 times in 2017; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9442/18]

Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)

Pepper sprays and electroshock weapons are considered to be prohibited weapons under the Firearms Act 1925, as amended. A prohibited weapon is defined as a firearm under the same Act, and accordingly the restrictions that apply to firearms in the Firearms Acts apply to pepper sprays and electroshock weapons. I have no plans to amend these provisions.

In considering whether or not to grant licences for the possession, use or carriage of firearms, An Garda Síochána take into account a number of factors provided for in the relevant legislation. In this context, in September 2009, the Garda Commissioner issued revised guidelines in relation to the operation of the firearms legislation which are designed to be of benefit to both members of the Gardaí and members of the public.

These guidelines state that: “The protection of life and property is a function of the Garda Síochána and civilians are only entitled to use reasonable force to protect themselves and their property. The combined effect of this means that there is no justification for seeking to possess a firearm for purposes of personal protection or protection of property. When assessing an application for a firearm certificate, a superintendent or chief superintendent should not take into account as part of a ‘Good Reason’ a reference to personal protection."

Sparks

Somewhat interestingly, the Minister appears to be saying that you can get a licence for a prohibited weapon.

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Somewhat interestingly, the Minister appears to be saying that you can get a licence for a prohibited weapon.

Where does it say that? If something is prohibited under the act, it remains prohibited. Probably just poor use of language.

gunny123

This is what happens when you close garda stations all over the place and people, especially rural people, feel exposed and unsafe.
I was reading about a crowd of burgulars being chased around a town, somewhere in the west of the country, by the towns people, some of them armed with legally held firearms, a few weeks back, not a copper for miles, what were they to do ?

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

Where does it say that? If something is prohibited under the act, it remains prohibited. Probably just poor use of language.

The problem is that the Act doesn't actually prohibit prohibited weapons; it just defines them. The intent is obvious to you and me, but then the intent of the ban on target shooting outside a range wasn't intended to catch zeroing and the short restricted firearm ban wasn't intended to catch crossbows and paintball markers, but...

By convention, they're not licenced; and since the main ones that would be sought for licencing are things like pepper spray and tasers which are intended for self-defence which is explicitly listed as unacceptable in the Commissioner's Guidelines, even without the convention you'd expect them to not be licenced. But then the minister says"

A prohibited weapon is defined as a firearm under the same Act, and accordingly the restrictions that apply to firearms in the Firearms Acts apply to pepper sprays and electroshock weapons.

And if the restrictions apply, so arguably does the rest; it could be clearer, but if they were just prohibited outright you'd think he'd just say that and be done with it instead of walking through a chain of causal links like he did.

One for the list of "funny things you wouldn't expect to find in a firearms act" I think...

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

The problem is that the Act doesn't actually prohibit prohibited weapons; it just defines them. The intent is obvious to you and me, but then the intent of the ban on target shooting outside a range wasn't intended to catch zeroing and the short restricted firearm ban wasn't intended to catch crossbows and paintball markers, but...

By convention, they're not licenced; and since the main ones that would be sought for licencing are things like pepper spray and tasers which are intended for self-defence which is explicitly listed as unacceptable in the Commissioner's Guidelines, even without the convention you'd expect them to not be licenced. But then the minister says"

And if the restrictions apply, so arguably does the rest; it could be clearer, but if they were just prohibited outright you'd think he'd just say that and be done with it instead of walking through a chain of causal links like he did.

One for the list of "funny things you wouldn't expect to find in a firearms act" I think...

So if we have pepper spray target competitions, could we licence them then? Of course I'm messing but my question remains.

Nekarsulm

gunny123 wrote: »

This is what happens when you close garda stations all over the place and people, especially rural people, feel exposed and unsafe.
I was reading about a crowd of burgulars being chased around a town, somewhere in the west of the country, by the towns people, some of them armed with legally held firearms, a few weeks back, not a copper for miles, what were they to do ?

Ballinamore in Leitrim. The publican stepped out of the bar to get something from his house, and saw 3 guys ransacking the kitchen, through the window.
Banged on the window to frighten them, then ran into the bar and shouted "the house is being robbed".
The crowd ran out onto the street, and the thieves took off in a Saab they had waiting.
People give chase, and the Saab crashed into a ditch. Thieves took off over the fields.
Some locals who do a bit of foxing arrived with lamps, and probably guns (although nobody is now admitting that part of the story) and tracked them into local forestry.
Searches continued for 24 hours but they had obviously been picked up by another car.

A stolen cash box was recovered from a hedge, where they threw it out the car window, and given to the Gardai.
The cctv hard drive from the publicians house security system has not been recovered.

Edit. If they'd caught them, they'd have got some hammering.....

gunny123

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Ballinamore in Leitrim. The publican stepped out of the bar to get something from his house, and saw 3 guys ransacking the kitchen, through the window.
Banged on the window to frighten them, then ran into the bar and shouted "the house is being robbed".
The crowd ran out onto the street, and the thieves took off in a Saab they had waiting.
People give chase, and the Saab crashed into a ditch. Thieves took off over the fields.
Some locals who do a bit of foxing arrived with lamps, and probably guns (although nobody is now admitting that part of the story) and tracked them into local forestry.
Searches continued for 24 hours but they had obviously been picked up by another car.

A stolen cash box was recovered from a hedge, where they threw it out the car window, and given to the Gardai.
The cctv hard drive from the publicians house security system has not been recovered.

I hope the sc and paul walsh doesn't hear that or we are boned .

Nekarsulm

gunny123 wrote: »

I hope the sc and paul walsh doesn't hear that or we are boned .

I'm sure they know, he told his story on TV!
Actually, I should clarify that they had robbed a few places in Ballinamore that evening, and then moved on 7 miles to the tiny village of Newtowngore where the above happened.
I live about 8 miles away and was getting the "text alerts" from our local scheme as things developed, and on a local Facebook page.

cavan shooter

It's shocking that it's come to that. But to be honest if by chance the lads had if got a good beating.....in this country the lads giving the beating would be in trouble.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if we have pepper spray target competitions, could we licence them then? Of course I'm messing but my question remains.

So I think you could actually licence them now, technically, but we don't do it by convention. The Commissioner's Guidelines are (a) Guidelines (think the Pirate's Code ) and (b) nonbinding by law, and (c) the gardai no longer have persona designata status anyway, All of which taken together means that it is at least hypothetically possible to licence them. You just need to find a sympathetic licencing officer and state you want it for self-defence. So long as the licencing officer is not of the opinion that you would be a danger to the public or the peace (ie. that you would only use it in extremis), you could legally issue a licence for it.

Now, that's hypothetical. A natter-over-a-pint sort of a thought experiment, if you will. In the "real world", I seriously doubt this would ever happen, barring something like the family members of a district court judge getting preferential treatment or the like.

It's something which interestingly our Firearms Act really just doesn't cover; the actual licencing of firearms for self-defence purposes is just something that for historical reasons doesn't see much consideration in legislation. (And for the record, I rather like that. It implies a society where your fellow man is not so much of a threat that you need a firearm for this kind of thing, because I've yet to meet a sensible person who had to carry a firearm for self-defence who preferred that state over not having to).

.243

gunny123 wrote: »

I hope the sc and paul walsh doesn't hear that or we are boned .

and on our next course "how to be proficient in chasing sumbags out of your town"

Sparks

cavan shooter wrote: »

But to be honest if by chance the lads had if got a good beating.....in this country the lads giving the beating would be in trouble.

To be more honest, you want that to be the case.


If you want to see what it's like when it's not the case, google for some accounts of lynchings in Alabama. If you can stomach them. That line between self-defence in extremis and "learning him good" is one that a society really wants to pay attention to...