Could Fine Gael be pushed to the right?

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796415#Comment_123796415

So are you really saying that every single asylum seeker was getting luxury hotel rooms on arrival before we ran out of them?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796400#Comment_123796400

No, because a move to the right for FG would just collapse their vote.

Fianna Fail, fine gael and sinn fein will exist in a space that moves and shifts based on the public and what they want. They aren't wedded to specific idealogies (apart from the Republicanism/United Ireland bit of SF).

If the country shifts right, they will too. Shifting the party if the country hasn't gone first would be a failed exercise.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796438#Comment_123796438

Ah yes, the old "oh you mean every single person blah blah blah, prove it show us the links" line of attack.

Before they ended up sleeping in tents, asylum seekers were accommodated in hotels or whatever accommodation was available. Some of those hotels were no doubt fairly luxurious. Others were probably more basic. So no, not EVERY SINGLE PERSON was put in the Shelbourne Hotel or similar. Happy now? The important point is that this country is spending billions - literally - on trying to accommodate these people due to the staggering incompetence and/or ideological desire of the main parties to import cheap labour. Nit picking over my every word isn't going to achieve anything except obscure the point.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796458#Comment_123796458

The parties are always far behind the mood of the public though. As things get worse - and they will - on the crime and immigration fronts you'll see more and more people looking for a party which takes a tough line on both issues. The fact that FG have already started making noises about cracking down on unlimited immigration is proof that they're already worried about the public backlash. Personally I think there's a silent majority out there who want to see centre right policies enacted but have no viable party to vote for, so they keep voting FFG on the basis of "the devil you know".

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796464#Comment_123796464

So asking for proof of to back up your statement is now an attack? I don't think you've every debated before.

Maybe next time try not to make your statements so hyperbolic as you lose all credibility in doing so.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796479#Comment_123796479

Ah yes. The silent majority who are right wing. But you wouldn't know them. They go to a different school.

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796479#Comment_123796479

More right wing candidates ran in the last election than I can ever remember, how many of them were elected again from this silent majority?

W123-80's

I don't think FG or FF will move in the direction of what I understand the OP is suggesting a Right Wing party should look like.

I do think there is a rapidly growing vacuum in Ireland that a UK Reform type political party could potentially fill. I also think there is an appetite for a Farage type character in Irish Politics.

Whilst most people scoffed at the notion of Conor McGregor going for the Presidential Election, I think we need to accept that there is a significant portion of the population who are willing to look past the baggage guys like Farage, McGregor, Trump etc bring to the political arena and vote for them because they say stuff that they can relate to.

Ireland is not immune to what has happened in the UK and America and I think its more likely than not we will see this type of politics in Ireland in the near future.

When it does happen I don't think it will solve the perceived concerns the OP has around crime and immigration.

mazdamiatamx5

Fine Gael is historically a centre right party and indeed still is - pro-capitalist, pro-free market. It is also strongly pro-EU, and has been for many decades.

In theory, yes, it could be brought further to the right by embracing a full-on far right agenda, but while I am not an FG voter and probably never will be, that, I hope will not occur.

Irish people aren't stupid. They have seen what happens elsewhere when shady far right agendas get control of the agenda.

I respect, though I don't agree with on some issues, Fine Gael voters.

In summary, it's unlikely that Fine Gael will fall victim to an entryist campaign by foreigners with shady agendas.

If there was a significant space in the market for a party to the right of FG but not far right, in our country, Michael McDowell would already have started it (if his wife let him, lol).

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796522#Comment_123796522

It's disappointing the number of people on this thread who can't seem to tell the difference between "far right" and "centre right". As I made clear in my post, far right parties didn't succeed at the last election because the majority of them are overt racist knuckle draggers whom no decent individual would vote for.

I thought I'd made it clear in my OP that what I'm proposing is a MODERATE form of common sense politics on crime, immigration and welfare. Nowhere in any of my posts will you find anything which could be construed as far right. Unless you're a snowflake who simply decides that anyone who isn't 100% hard left is a Nazi by definition.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796938#Comment_123796938

Or you could argue that in the sense of Irish politics what you are describing is far right?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796972#Comment_123796972

And you'd be wrong.

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796938#Comment_123796938

You were doing well before throwing out the "unless you're a snowflake" trope.

Can you actually not make points without hyperbole or personal insults?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123794631#Comment_123794631

You complain that the incumbents manage to retain power so as a result you have decided not to vote in the forthcoming election?
Really? 🙄

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798099#Comment_123798099

When all of the options are a joke. Yes, that's myposition ... fg no longer any interest in prudence or rewarding workers, contrary to their lies and propaganda...

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798159#Comment_123798159

So I assume at the next GE you'll vote for a different party to show your disdain for FG/FF or will you vote for them again?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798159#Comment_123798159

So is your frustration with FG or all parties because your post makes you seem unsure?

I also note how you blame FG for the country's ills and yet you fail to mention either FF or the few independents holding them in place.

edit: typo

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123797135#Comment_123797135

Do you recognise though that what can be considered left or right changes based on the time or the location you are talking about? Simple example - the Democrats in America are considered left-wing there but are more to the right on an awful lot of things than FF or FG are here. Our left wing parties here would be considered communist in America.

So the point remains - if the political landscape in Ireland swings from somewhere in the left to somewhere in the right and you are advocating for things that are further to the right than almost anybody is advocating for - is that not far right?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798436#Comment_123798436

You know as well as I do that the term "far right" is understood to mean racist and neo - Fascist politics. How is it fascist to advocate that violent thugs serve proper prison sentences instead of being allowed to stroll out of court with another suspended sentence to add to the 150 they've already racked up? How is it racist to ask why we're allowing hundreds of thousands of economic migrants to settle in the country when we can't meet the basic infrastructure needs - in housing, health and education - of the indigenous population? What's particularly "far right" about suggesting that people should be expected to work for a living if they're capable of doing so, rather than dropping out and living on welfare their whole lives because they think that certain jobs are beneath them? Only the hard left would consider any of those ideas "far right" and there's no debating with them anyway.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798511#Comment_123798511

Okay, but if the majority of the country's voters are to the left of you then you can't describe your politics as in the centre, can you?

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798527#Comment_123798527

Of course they can as we're all just hard left snowflakes in their eyes if we don't agree with their view.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798527#Comment_123798527

I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. Irish voters aren't ideological when it comes to elections as for example French or Italian voters who have a history of clearly defined left and right wing parties. There's never been that kind of ideological debate in Ireland. Paddy votes for whoever he thinks can get the job done and doesn't care whether they're left, right or centre.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798535#Comment_123798535

"Paddy votes for whoever he thinks can get the job done"

And this has resulted in all parties adopting various levels of "left wing" approaches such as progressive taxes, increasing social welfare, a larger government. The parties of the left (SF, Labour, Soc Dems & PBP-S) would prefer they went further (wealth taxes, more progressive taxation, etc etc) but the policies can still be viewed as broadly towards the centre/centre-left. We as a society have voted for progressive moves too such as legalising same-sex marriage and repealing the 8th.

Where Ireland is different to European countries is that our parties never fell into the idealistic split - they have been more broad tents who adapted as the winds changed. We never had a conservative party or a socialist/labour party (apart from Labour themselves, but they're too small).

What you can do I guess is look at how the parties align themselves in Europe. FG are with the centre-right EPP, FF with the centrist liberals, Labour with the centre-left socialists and Sinn Fein with the further left "The Left". Independent Ireland went with the liberals too, but I think that's more of a reflection of Ciaran Mullooly's personal politics rather than the party as a whole.

Based on this, the parties in Ireland identify between centre-right and left/far-left. You are advocating a position to the right of all of these, so that's not a centrist position in Ireland at all.

Ozymandius2011

Ireland is already fairly rightwing on non interventionism in the private sector, which in the US would be called "Small Government".

On the other hand, the Irish welfare system is generous, and would be frowned upon by the likes of DOGE and much of the American Right. MAGA views on welfare are more idiosyncratic than Reagan, with his speech criticising the "Welfare Queen".

Ireland is unquestionably on the Left on social issues. Ireland has resisted the trends seen in the US, France, Poland, Hungary and Italy towards Populist Right politics.

Looking at why, I'm very convinced its partly the decline of organised religion. Religion and rightwing nationalism have long been bedfellows since at least the late 19th century. However before that they were sometimes opponents, such as the French Revolution because of Catholicisms support for monarchies.

I also think the Catholic Church has started moving a little leftwards on issues like climate change, no longer condemning homosexuality as vocally. The Church has also become more pro-welfare. A few days ago a delegation of LGBTQ Catholics was received by Pope Leo XIV.

In contrast, the Irish Catholic Church of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid was closer to DOGE's scepticism of welfare. He blocked Noel Browne 's "Mother and Child Scheme" to introduce free maternity care including for unmarried mothers in 1951. US style language warning about "socialised medicine" and calling it "Communism" helped sink it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123746178#Comment_123746178

Renua were a right wing version of FG (isn't that exactly what the OP is looking for?) They had sitting TDs, some of whom were quite personally popular, and a good bit of funding. Crashed and burned at their first election.

In the policy sense the PDs didn't fail, they succeeded. The socially-liberal, pro-business, lower-taxation policies were gradually taken up by FF and FG to the extent that there was little space left for the PDs to occupy. They were always a niche party and with individual TDs vulnerable to vote swings. McDowell was a divisive leader and never held a secure seat. Letting Tom Parlon in and supporting the decentralisation fiasco, the ultimate FF stroke, was disastrous as it totally disregarded the principles they'd been founded on of fiscal prudence and opposition to stroke politics.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123801536#Comment_123801536

The public perception of Renua is that they were a one policy party i.e. anti -abortion. I don't recall them having any particularly strong policies on crime, immigration or welfare reform or if they did, they weren't publicised. Crime and immigration hadn't really hit the headlines in Renua's lifetime either. They were ticking time bombs but hadn't gone off yet so in the grand tradition of irtish politics they were ignored.

I think the early success of the PD's is proof of what I'm saying - that if you put a credible alternative to people they'll vote for it.

Ozymandius2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123801536#Comment_123801536

They did crash and burn but thats partly because the places they were focusing on, like Dublin, are not exactly fertile ground for social conservatism.

I am a staunch secularist and I did the anti abortion views of some candidates like Creighton hurt them with liberals. On the other hand, the pro-choice views of other candidates hurt them with social conservatives. I would say about 70-80% of the Irish are social liberals, but that means there is a potential market for a social-conservative party too.

Also unlike the Christian Right in the US, Irish social conservatives are not necessarily conservative on issues like welfare or immigration. Some are liberal on immigration and pro welfare. I think this reflects a change in the Catholic Church since Francis.

Hotblack Desiato

So people keep saying, but we never see one succeed. Renua was not focused on Dublin, so maybe it's that Ireland as a whole is not exactly fertile ground for social conservatism?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123802536#Comment_123802536

If, by "social conservatism", you mean LGBTQ issues, abortion etc. then this is a futile direction to be taking the conversation in. My concerns, which I think are shared by many in the country (despite constant attempts by poster here to claim otherwise) as I made clear in my OP, are crime, immigration and welfare. I have no issue with LGBT rights or abortion, both of which the electorate have made their opinions on clearly and unambiguously in two referenda.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123803264#Comment_123803264

If you create a party that focuses on your targets, you'll find that the bulk of those who want to become members are going to have Renua like views on social issues.