(Site is a graveyard - How can boards save itself?) Any update?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

As most decisions are upheld in DR what you're proposing is to take away any potential for decisions to be questioned at all.

What you're proposing wouldn't have been out of place in East Germany tbh.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545133#Comment_122545133

Here's your post that I quoted...

You used the term "asking for the lines to be widened" which I interpreted as wanting the rules to be changed to suit me or whoever else you're addressing. Unless you can retionalise that you meant something different with that comment I'm going to assume that "lines widened" means people asking for rules to be changed for them.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545095#Comment_122545095

You may perceive it as posters being 'abusive' to you and you only 'defending' yourself, that does not make it true or convincing to 3rd parties. Mods may deal with actions differently depending on previous conduct on a thread, an informal zero point or on thread warning may be sufficient for some posters but if similar conduct continues then a pointed warning is applied. It does not necessarily mean any bias.

And I find your claims \ perceptions unconvincing, and have pointed out reasons for this, not only with reference to ignore list but also with reference to claims made in posts in this thread.

You are making the claims here therefore if you can make such claims it should be open to other posters to comment on them in a civil manner. Or neither type should be made.

I've also discussed some of the implications of large scale use of ignore in a general sense, your comments may have prompted that but it is not all about your use of it, but general implications of wider use and and how it could be abused (that doesn't mean you are abusing it in the ways considered).

I think everybody reading this thread at this stage has read sufficient of your posts expressing your view and of mine in response to it to form their own opinions in response to it.

I do not plan to "keep bringing it up" unless to challenge further points you have made. And to respond to e.g. general comments made about ignore function.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545174#Comment_122545174

The problem there is that it isn't being discussed in a civil manner.

I have people calling my mental health into question and psychoanalysing me.

Do you support people making those types of comments?

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

You are suggesting that if someone questions the moderation by a certain mod, that the mods can choose to further punish the poster for doing so?

How very Orwellian.

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

Imo your first point would just increase the amount of reregs for those that feel they are being censored, persecuted etc as that already occurs when some are site banned and still waste mod/admin time.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545184#Comment_122545184

I don't support anyone in this thread attacking or discussing posters in an uncivil manner, whoever the poster is.
That seems a matter for mods and should be reported.

(That doesn't mean I accept the premise of your question either in regard to any specific instance)

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545136#Comment_122545136

Considering most appeals are upheld, I’d prefer to see something I suggested earlier in this thread - 24 hour ban, no appeal- do it again another 24 ban- 3rd time 1 week no appeal etc etc

Then clear the persons “record” after 6 months if no issues. There’s way too much time wasted on appeals - I’d prefer to see better and more accurate modding - the idiots posting in a trolling style are still doing just that - I don’t care if mods are saying we don’t see all interventions - the fact they’re still posting is enough for me to know nothing is being done.
Calling such posting styles out on this thread is one of the few ways I can see to keeping the trolls in line - they hate posters mentioning that trolling is going on - they much prefer being below the radar- I’ve no intention of calling them out in name but if they see such posts as this, they’ll be less likely to troll as they know they’ll be reported instantly if they try.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544641#Comment_122544641

That is a point that some posters here are pushing heavily as site feedback. It's not gospel.

It has been pointed out repeatedly at this stage that only certain views are coming regularly to the attention of moderators as you put it. There is some pretty disgraceful carryon from posters who espouse this point of view, posters whom you'd swear butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.

If CA etc is to survive credibly on boards, there needs to be a total overhaul of moderator modus operandi and a fresh start.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544788#Comment_122544788

Absolutely, as good an example as any of my previous point.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545201#Comment_122545201

Quelle surprise.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545168#Comment_122545168

If you took that comment to be directed at you then that's on you, not me. You've taken a generalised reply to another commenter and personalised it and I find that quite interesting.

Perception =!= Reality

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

I'd say a case of just increasing if it's a poster that incapable of taking feedback or using DR to just go on a rant about individual users or mods.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545268#Comment_122545268

I've been accused of the behaviour you outlined in your post repeatedly on this thread so I believe I'm entitled to respond to that type of comment. I spoke for myself and others accused of wanting bespoke rule changes which nobody, including me wants.

The central point that you made, that some people want rules tailored to them is baseless and intended to invalidate the feedback people are giving.

In essence what you've engaged in is little more than stirring the pot and when you got a response you pretend to be taken aback by it.

Every post I've read from you here appears to have been written in bad faith.

Yvonne007

I think all I want is even handed moderation.

There's no point in pretending that it happens in the Current Affairs thread. You would only need to look at the Biden/Harris or Trump threads.

Any post that even comes close to saying something less than complimentary to Kamala Harris is immediately shot down unless a caveat of "but Trump is worse" is added at the end.

The Russia thread is also one where saying anything that seems to be compassionate towards Russian citizens is seen as being a Putin sympathiser.

The immigration thread and transgender threads again are hotbeds for people being allowed to be called anti-this or anti-that if they want to discuss legitimate concerns.

Now I understand trolling is also rife and should be actioned, but even moderately dissenting views are shot down or a pile on occurs which makes contributing pointless. It would be nice to have a grown up and adult conversation in good faith.

Basically, any of the hot-button topics which should and would have opposing views which are polarising are moderated very unevenly.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545294#Comment_122545294

Ah yes, you just have to defend yourself from a comment that was neither said to you or referenced you (or any other individual commenter) in any way whatsoever.

I re-read the last few pages of this thread in case I did actually reply to you or say something about you but I haven't and I don't think we've ever interacted before. You make a big deal about posters taking pot shots at you, following you around threads, having to defend yourself etc but you've taken a generalised comment by me to someone else and turned it into a personal attack on you.

I wonder how many other times you've done that.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545249#Comment_122545249

Something being "pointed out" doesn't make it true.

I could just as easily point out that it is the commentors who refuse to learn from their mistakes and adjust their behaviour that end up being sanctioned repeatedly.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545289#Comment_122545289

Patronising much? The reality is that the alternative route is followed by many. Just let the profile slip and register again under a new profile. That some choose not to do this and to make helpful comments as to how the site can rectify these problems is generally a sign of good faith posting.

But also on the subject of site feedback - how is that the site has become like Hotel California?

"Mirrors on the ceiling, the pink champagne on ice, And she said, "We are all just prisoners here of our own device"

And in the master's chambers, they gathered for the feast, They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast

Last thing I remember, I was running for the door, I had to find the passage back to the place I was before

"Relax, " said the night man, "We are programmed to receive, You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

It used to be relatively simple to close an account through the user profile. Now it's like getting out of Colditz.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545339#Comment_122545339

So when your central point has been refuted (nobody is asking for rules to be changed to suit them in isolation and you cannot support the assertion you made stating that to be the case) you turn your attention to an ad homenim attack against the person who dismantled your assertion.

Not only are you engaging in an ad homenim attack against me, you are using my previous comments about other ad homenim attacks I've endured as a stick to beat me with.

Next time you making a sweeping statement and don't want certain people to reply to it maybe you could outline who you feel should reply and who shouldn't, just for clarification.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

It's an interesting idea but there's already space for an admin to increase the sanction if they feel it necessary. For my part, I always try and explain as clearly as possible why I've done what I've done to minimise admin time and effort. There's also the PMs on thread as well.

As for charters, that's down to forum mods. You can PM them if you think there's something that needs changing.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545435#Comment_122545435

Interesting?

Someone proposes a rule change that essentially eliminates any form of dissent and you think it's interesting?

As pointed out already by multiple posters, DR typically results in decisions being upheld. So this proposal will just result in more ill feeling on the site and reduce trust and then traffic.

The idea that DR threads are a massive drain to resources isn't based in reality either, getting any sort of response can take weeks on occasion, DR's exist but they aren't exactly top priority or taking up huge swathes of moderation time.

What Emmetspiceland is proposing is a system where moderation has no oversight, granting a sort of moderator infallibility, that's hardly a positive step for the site.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545499#Comment_122545499

Does everything you write have to be this dishonest and disingenuous? Really? What Emmet said is clear in black and white. Mods can already change charters and somehow the sky hasn't fallen in.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545499#Comment_122545499

I suppose if you were a mod, it would interest you to have a final solution to deal with people who you didn't agree with.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545334#Comment_122545334

There is even handed moderation in those threads. And I'm not "pretending".

In the threads to discuss a two horse race (Harris v Trump), or a war between two countries (Russia invaded Ukraine):

So if you pop in with a criticism of one side, if you are claiming to be concerned about point A, why are you only bringing it up in relation to X and not Y? So it is entirely reasonable to ask, but what about Y where there is ample evidence of Y being far worse on that point A. It is not whataboutery, it is about establishing standards.

If the poster is actually concerned about point A that is… because very often there is no real concern about the point, because any real concern about the point would see the vast majority of their criticism directed at the other side.
Instead we very often see feigned ignorance and disinterest in any consideration of how the point applies to the other side.

So yes, it is perfectly possible to post in those threads in a balanced way.

But if it looks like you've just popped in to "just ask a question" (and usually the loaded question is a MAGA or Russian social media talking point) … then you can expect to be challenged on that.

And it is not a pile on if you make a point and are shot down by multiple posters. Posters are free to engage or not with posts. I've seen posters cry "pile on" for making a claim that is easily discredited by a quick google search, or already discredited on the thread and then try to play the victim when multiple posters reply to discredit it. A claim they could have conducted some basic scrutiny on themselves.

The threads are not moderated unevenly. What is uneven are the objective merits of each side of the argument, therefore it is very difficult for someone to consistently argue a contrary position in good faith. Instead we get 'guerrila' tactics of overt or low level trolling, hypocritical or bad faith arguments, just asking questions, link dumps etc.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545123#Comment_122545123

How about before suggesting any changes to the DRP system, the absurdly long process is sped up and streamlined?

There is no reason an appeal process should take any longer than 48 hours from start to finish, yet some DRP submissions have taken months to even get a first reply...

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545506#Comment_122545506

The idea that having a DR upheld should result in a longer ban in all cases isn't reasonable.

There's no need to take personal jabs at me every time you respond to something I say either.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545529#Comment_122545529

Which isn't remotely what I said.

This is a waste of time, as always.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545529#Comment_122545529

Thing is @ancapailldorcha said the idea was interesting but the ability to increase sanctions based on a judgement call is already allowed. They did not argue for pursuing the idea. This more sounds like a personal grudge against a poster rather than an honest reading of their post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545373#Comment_122545373

And dispute resolutions also frequently has posters that are engaging in bad faith arguments. So think there very much are scenarios where increased sanctions are justified.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545572#Comment_122545572

If there was a misunderstanding you could have clarified your position without being so insulting towards me.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545529#Comment_122545529

It seems the majority of the posts I see that poster respond to you are uncivil.

Although your not the only one who receives it.

When a mod is doing it, no wonder others feel they can get away with doing it.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545643#Comment_122545643

They chose to be abusive towards me rather than clarify their position and I'm the one heing accused of having a personal grudge?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545673#Comment_122545673

I'm definitely not the only one receiving that type of treatment, lots of other posters are getting it too, particularly stuff about peoples mental health etc that really shouldn't be tolerated.

I'm not going to sit back and have a Cmod accuse me of being a narcissist and then being openly abusive towards me while pretending everything is rosey in the garden and his behaviour is beyond reproach.

If that's what the attitude behind moderation on this site it's no wonder there's so much abuse tolerated.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545526#Comment_122545526

I think those long delays are mainly due to lack of mods on quieter forums?

There were suggestions earlier on thread to streamline e.g. CA perhaps as a trial.

Flaneur OBrien

Does anyone else see this thread lasting any longer?

I think it's done its job. Nothing positive is coming from it anymore, just personal gripes.

Unsurprising to see who is behind dragging it completely off topic to get it locked once the conversation turned to charters being rigorously enforced.

But look, it doesn't matter. None of it matters. We've not heard from management or the owners. The owner doesn't care. I'm sure boards is nothing more than something he bought a few years ago, gathering dust somewhere. It looks after itself and doesn't cause him strife.

To answer the thread question,

(Site is a graveyard - How can boards save itself?) Any update?

Boards can only save itself if boards (aka the owner/management) wants it to be saved. Right now, it causes no trouble and runs itself. Why fix something that's not broken in their eyes?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545807#Comment_122545807

Was there anything positive? Genuine question? I think @Tell me how is engaging in good faith and started the thread with good intentions but it's not much more than a place for some people to spout lies and abuse now.

To reiterate, Odhran has not posted since September 2023, just under a year ago. He doesn't care and without more resources, the site will just continue to decline. I've no idea why he bothered to become the owner, honestly.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545572#Comment_122545572

You did say this though:

“Does everything you write have to be this dishonest and disingenuous? Really”

That is a harsh comment from anyone on the site to anyone else and goes against the whole attack the post not the poster mantra.

I’m not taking any side here just as a reader I perceive what you said as poor form and maybe I think I can now get away with saying similar to posters I broadly disagree across the site.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545572#Comment_122545572

This is an example of what I said previously.

You did say that EmmetSpiceLand's proposal was interesting. So it was remotely what you said.

But if you were talking about another part of the post, it would be good to clarify.

If I was a mod, I would infract you for breaking the 'don't be a dick' rule.

It's that rule which I think the site might need to rethink as it hands the moderators far too much leeway to define something they disagree with as being "dick-ish".

nullzero

Close the thread before the mask slips any further?

Enforcing existing rules isn't an issue. Punishing people for disputing moderation in a setting that already has questionable transparency isn't a positive move however.

All that does is reduce trust and exacerbate existing problems.

Anyone voting for the retention status quo doesn't want to lose the advantages that grants them.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545838#Comment_122545838

And we're supposed to expect impartiality from this person.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545838#Comment_122545838

I did. I wonder why you didn't highlight any of the abusive comments made about me. Harsh comments are only wrong when they come from certain people?

Any time I try to engage with that poster, they immediately resort to gaslighting, abuse, and playing the victim. Always. I won't go on about this but that's why. There's page after page after page of proof on this thread.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545856#Comment_122545856

Close the thread before the mask slips any further?

weren’t you just complaining loudly about ad hominems?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545837#Comment_122545837

Most positive thing for me was rediscovering that post about boards etiquette and having a nice reminisce about what it used to be like here and what behaviour was and wasn't tolerated before.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545856#Comment_122545856

"Anyone voting for the retention status quo doesn't want to lose the advantages that grants them."

Anyone voting against the status quo doesn't want to play by the rules, and won't play by new rules either.

See how easy it is to present an argument when you couch it in such terms?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545886#Comment_122545886

Only bad when other people do it. Same approach to rule, they're only for other people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545892#Comment_122545892

That was some blast from the past alright.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545772#Comment_122545772

I mean that's also a factor that definitely doesn't help things. Most of the time the major holdup in DRP is that one has to exhaust "discussion with the mod that issued" first before anything else. Really though, a mod team of a forum — and also the CMods of the category — should be able to speak for/defend the assumed rationale of the original issuing mod.

The process would go a lot better if it went something like this:

• DRP can be started without having to exhaust discussion with original mod, and PM conversation of the action (which is usually automated, I think?) should be able to be posted immediately without requiring any silly "permission" from the mod that issued it.
• Once started, there is a 24 hour period for any mod of the forum to respond. If DRP started without exhausting discussion with original mod, this period is extended to 72 hours.
• Failing a response, or if manually requested to go up a level, there is then another 24 hour period for a CMod to respond.
• Failing a response, of if manually requested to go up a level, there is a final 24 hour period for an Admin to respond.
• If no response from any level, the original mod action is considered null and void.

I hate reiterating Reddit, but man, if we left any mod action appeal sit untouched in our modmail for even 12 hours; then we're not doing our role correctly.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545911#Comment_122545911

You understand the nature of mods being volunteers? No volunteer should have to be kept to time scales like that.

Personally, I'd scrap the DRP.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545880#Comment_122545880

I just dropped into the thread dude, you have a big cmod badge and a cool picture of a horse.

Harsh comments are not tolerated across the site at all no matter how scummy/nice the person who fired the comment out is - is that correct?

As I said at the bottom, not taking any side at all - your comment that I quoted is harsh on its own two legs without the full context.

Please don’t take this as a personal attack or anything of the sort, it’s just the sort of thing I feel the site could use less off.

along with mods closing threads with comments like “it’s terrible Joe”. Not naming any names 😂

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122541483#Comment_122541483

I didn't quote this yesterday as I wasn't going to rise to it, however you're replying to a poster who quoted one of my posts so I'm going to assume the body of your post references me. If that's not the case I'm open to correction.

You accuse me of being a narcissist and then go on to question my mental health.

You are supposed to set an example as a moderator, yet here you are accusing me of gaslighting you and making spurious accusations about me as a person and my mental health.

I have held my hands up on this thread and admitted I haven't always behaved perfectly, I've outlined how I propose to reduce the amount of petty disagreements I end up involved in and for that you and others piled on with abuse a cod psychology.

You're telling people how awful I am but you can't even acknowledge your own poor behaviour.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545932#Comment_122545932

Yea, actually I think I do understand:

When a site is as busy or as active as here or Reddit, someone has to be able to respond promptly. Whether that's the original mod, or another member of the team at that level or above.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545937#Comment_122545937

Context matters. Feedback matters. It's why I'm trying to engage but I'm not going to have someone lie blatantly about me repeatedly without calling it out. It's a fair response if you add the context.