(Site is a graveyard - How can boards save itself?) Any update?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499236#Comment_122499236

Maybe it’s best to leave mods and site admins to determine what constitutes hate speech rather than arguing that some peoples are deserving of hate.
Surely intelligent and eloquent posters such as yourself can articulate your outrage at clearly vile acts without resorting to hateful, dehumanising terms that only serve to reflect poorly on the user of such terms.
If hate speech is to be allowed against all those who perpetuate vile acts, as you seem to suggest, then this site would become a very hateful place indeed.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499236#Comment_122499236

It’s derogatory language and should therefore be banned in all cases. There is no justification for letting posters celebrate casualties as long as they are on Russian side either. That thread is probably the most toxic one on the site and it’s amazing what is allowed to be posted there.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499281#Comment_122499281

Yes the dichotomy on display here is staggering. Posters using harsher language and expressing more concern about Russians carrying out vile acts in Ukraine being called orcs than they ever displayed in discussing the vile acts themselves.

You agreed that personal insults falls under being a dick.

You were completely unable to offer any coherent explanation as to why thanking such an insult is not "being a dick". If you recall, you tried to ignore the question multiple times as you couldn't offer any credible response. Which proves the point, it is being a dick.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499377#Comment_122499377

It is derogatory language against Russian invaders. It is not derogatory language against posters on this site. There is not and never has been a general rule against using derogatory language to express your opinions against those responsible for vile acts.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499361#Comment_122499361

Ah you were the one implying there was hate speech in your opening post. And then when your claims were challenged, you fall back to, the mods should decide. Read your first post back to yourself then in light of that. Strange that you allow yourself to express such opinions but when others express contrary opinions you try to delegitimize it.

You were asked to support your claims and you were unable to. The posts you cited proved no such thing as your originally claimed. You had to shift the goalposts and water down your claim to the vague 'dehumanising language', a definition you could drive a bus through.

So your premise falls at the first fence.

What I actually said was:

People are reacting with strong language to absolutely vile conduct by Russian forces.

Which you attempted to twist into me somehow supporting 'hate speech' on boards. A claim without merit and without foundation.

I think what reflects poorly on posters is when instead of unreservedly condemning and expressing their disapproval of vile acts by Russians invaders - whether in emotional language like orcs, or more 'eloquently' - is those who instead resort to weasel words and equivocations and semantic games and whataboutery to avoid doing so. That is toxic. It is not honest. It is not sincere.

It is those kind of actions which drive people away from the site when left to run amok. To re-iterate, the notion that some posters calling Russian invaders carrying out atrocities orcs is somehow a factor in the 'decline' of boards as per this thread topic strikes me as entirely without substance.

Deja Boo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497546#Comment_122497546

My apologies Legend, I hadn't read through the thread and assumed you were advocating for banning some topics entirely, which seemed a bit drastic, even with my bad experiences.

If only your examples could be honoured without posters instantaneously being labeled racist, homophobic, et al ….but experience proves differently. Black and white is all many see - when any opinion differs (even mildly) from their own (or from group-think), they dig in their heals to discredit, intimidate or humiliate…. For me, it's not worth the battle to post much, given the hostile environment.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499425#Comment_122499425

I'm not getting into another back and forth but maybe find a post with personal abuse that I've thanked before throwing the dick accusation.

I've explained why I think thanks shouldn't be moderated, that doesn't mean I condone posts with personal abuse. I've explained that I've reported them, but that's not enough. 🤷‍♀️

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499474#Comment_122499474

No problem, Deja. 🙂

All I'm suggesting is allowing discussion of all topics, whilst disallowing hate speech, but yes, there's no room for grey areas.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499499#Comment_122499499

Reread my posts. There was no implication that you personally had engaged in such conduct. I dont know where you got that idea from. I certainly did not intend to make any such claim against you.

I was speaking of a general scenario, of an example of a post which is plainly personal abuse, has not been edited. The original poster is being a dick.

Whether it is practical or not to moderate the thanks, but to me somebody who thanks that post is plainly being a dick also. It is toxic because it shows wider support for such conduct.

Irish Aris

Is there any point discussing moderating the thanks?

It won't happen, not a realistic option currently. Mods can barely keep up with the reported posts.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499436#Comment_122499436

Derogatory language and celebration of death and violence needs to be banned collectively for all groups of people, not just for the ones that you side with.

Here are examples of the last page on said thread:

”Not only were the dumb fuks marching but also digging trenches”

“Sounds like them drones need to start dropping rat poison into every stream and lake along the front”

”Just need to poison one to put the fear into them”

It would be good to have a mod or admin confirm the site’s stance on this type of posting.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499542#Comment_122499542

I made the suggestion. It has been aired for consideration, other posters have expressed their view on it.

I will not bring it up again except to challenge critical comments made about the idea.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499572#Comment_122499572

This is the definition of derogatory:

showing a critical or disrespectful attitude

Would suit certain quarters alright if derogatory language cant be used against rapists, those who abuse children, murderers etc. Or racists. And i dont mean posters on boards. Those carrying out the acts in the real world.

I can dig out the post in current affairs where you said a woman being beaten by their partner was of no real concern to you - the actual violence inflicted on her. Remarkable here the claim that you are concerned by language used on boards about Russian soldiers.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499602#Comment_122499602

You are deflecting and getting personal now. Surely you agree that comments such as the ones I quoted above should not be allowed to stand on a discussion board? These comments would be banned swiftly if made against other nations so why make an exception for one country?

“I'm feeling very upbeat about Ukraine's jaunt into Mordor”. Comments like this make it clear that criticism of Russians is not confined to their army alone.

Backstreet Moyes

Deal with the posters who gaslight everyone in a thread.

This thread is full of racism, islamophobes, transphobia, hate-mongering or whatever other buzzword.

When asked to provide examples you get told to read the thread or no response.

The intent of these posts is to purely gaslight other posters into a reaction as it serves no other purpose.

If you see racism etc report the posts or highlight the posts you are talking about instead of a blanket statement.

Cutting out that behaviour will certainly reduce the amount of arguing in threads.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499645#Comment_122499645

Im not getting 'personal'. My reply relates to the content of your public posts on boards and contradictions therein.

The comments referred to are being made not about posters on boards, not about Irish public figures... they are not being made about a race, religion, gender.

They are being made against Russian military and those supporting that war effort. An illegal war of atrocity.

Im sure there are also criticisms of Russia's regime and the Russians which defend it and rightly so. However it would be wrong to imply the criticisms and language are on the same level.

Posters should be entitled to use forceful and derogatory language towards those carrying out vile acts.

It is up to mods to determine if the language crosses the line in specific cases. If you return to the thread you will see that other posters have engaged with the wisdom of some of the remarks you have highlighted, which seems a good example of a discussion board in action.

But to re-iterate the notion such language is a factor in the 'decline' of boards doesnt stand up to scrutiny. The thread is one of the most active on CA and there is always the Politics forum for those who wish to discuss matters with less forceful language.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499542#Comment_122499542

I think its not realistic . But could it not be included in a community mission statement to try to reduce such behaviour generally .

Thanking sxxx posting and values even if you don't really fully subscribe to it just because a poster you generally agree with posts it, is bringing us all down here . That and thanking threadbans are such negative and nasty scoring and think we are all guilty at some point .

Another thing to think about ..whats the list looking like now ?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498869#Comment_122498869

Feedback? It's simple - as far as the ordinary poster is concerned little or nothing has changed since the original thread that begat this one. One moderator in CA retired and otherwise it's been 'service' as normal.

As regards threads that deal with current affairs, culture, economy and politics etc., the site needs a root & branch examination of the parameters that posters should stay in. These should be made clear with examples. If they are too regressive, people will choose to leave. Too lax and it may cause problems. There's a balance to be struck that should generally air on the side of free speech, without endangering the site.

The present moderators and admins of these forums should be moved out to other parts of the site. New moderators/ admins should be set up that are knowledgeable on the matters raised and who apply warnings & sanctions in an impartial way to all sides of a debate, where posters clearly infringe the above parameters. There should be clear explanation of why a certain post contravened the parameters.

Thread bans should have some threshold where they expire for longer standing and valuable posters.

Some of above will increase workload on moderators. This is why light touch and clear impartial moderation is important, to reduce the level of interactions.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499729#Comment_122499729

You are trying to deflect. I am not in a habit of name calling and prefer to discuss topics and cases on a factual basis.

“Posters should be entitled to use forceful and derogatory language towards those carrying out vile acts.”

And this is where I disagree. Everyone has a different opinion on what constitutes a “vile act” and it is impossible to reinforce if boundaries are not clear. Many complaints and feedback suggestions on this thread stem from people feeling that rules are not clear and enforced inconsistently. This is something that can be clarified via an updated forum charter as suggested earlier.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499665#Comment_122499665

Indeed .

Should deal with those who make claims they cannot back up with hateful language and who erupt when somebody asks them to explain why they think that stance is ok

Sure may as well just let people say whatever they want and don't reply on thread , just report ?

Would cut out a lot of arguing alright .Probably divide a thread by half, some by three quarters ..great idea /p

Then the whinging about posters' reporting begins and the long repeated DRP about how they were unfairly threadbanned and mod bias etc . But thats ok because those threads are becoming such a major feature and an entertaining facet of the site now, nearly should have their own forum .

Any suggestions for a name for that new disappointed railing posters forum , folks ?

Seriously , do you really think people should be allowed say whatever they like unchallenged ? Whats the point of that ?

Sephiroth_dude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499542#Comment_122499542

It's not nice when people thank an abusive post, I've been there in the past and it's not nice to see a list of posters who thanked it but I don't think it's a realistic idea either to sanction everyone that thanked it.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499833#Comment_122499833

I really have no idea what you are trying to say here.

My point was clear and I have no idea what this is to do with my post.

If you want to suggest other scenarios where people should be sanctioned feel free to do so, their is no need to quote my post.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499881#Comment_122499881

I added in the relevant bit there after you had read it , sorry about that .

"Seriously , do you really think people should be allowed say whatever they like unchallenged ? Whats the point of that ?"

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499878#Comment_122499878

It makes no sense. If 40 people thank an abusive post, how would this even work when you can only see a small fraction of those that thanked it?

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499896#Comment_122499896

No I said they should be reported to a mod or the poster called out by whoever is making the accusation.

Saying a thread is full of something and not backing it up is nothing but gaslighting the whole thread.

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I want people to say what they want unchallenged.

I want people doing such things called out for it or reported and sanctioned by a mod.

Making a blanket statement and not backing it up is not challenging anyone, it just annoys everyone.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499924#Comment_122499924

Just removing the post, as early as possible, is the best course of action available.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499934#Comment_122499934

I thought you were arguing for people not to be called out on their statements and just reported ?

That would be a strange suggestion on a discussion forum

So what are you reporting.. hateful language , racist statements or what ? If its not worth discussing, eg you have tried and poster just repeats the statement , well yes . But I don't get your point here .

Edit . Just reread your first post there .

Are you saying the person who makes the statement calling out racist speech etc should be reported ? Because they don't back it up ?

What are you getting at here ?

They are as entitled to their opinion as anyone else and should if credible be able to back it up . Sometimes people do back statements up but their explanations or proof etc do not align with their statements .

But is that not what posting in a forum is about ...discussing these points ?

If they can't or won't explain , why report them ? Just scroll on by .

No I don't think its "gaslighting the whole thread " . Annoying though , yes .

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499457#Comment_122499457

I claimed there was hate speech on Boards.ie

You responded with

“This is completely untrue and total misrepresentation”

I then quoted a post which referenced the term we are discussing, Orcs, as Ordinary Russian Civilians.
It is neither untrue or a misrepresentation. It is a hate term against a nationality based on the actions of the political leadership.
You can defend the use of any term you wish but you are not the arbiter of what terms are hateful or not.

PmMeUrDogs

Feedback of things that could be helpful (previously 20k posts between a few accounts, 2 yellows, so I'm not a total newbie);

More mods in CA.

Separate US Politics forum or at least one dedicated thread.

Update charters and ensure there actually ARE charters.

Make baiting an offence in more contentious fora.

Pay attention to context in issuing bans, at least at DRP level. This shite of banning a poster who's been goaded for days or hours til they snap is ridiculous - yes they broke a rule, but had the baiting been an offence, or had there been enough mods available to see the thread, the snapping wouldn't have happened.

Agree with others that some mods seem heavily skewed towards siding with posters aligning with their own political leanings (I'm left leaning so would be of similar beliefs to all the mods I see, for the record). But 99% of the time, it's someone on the "other side" of a debate just breaking a rule.

Get rid of vanilla, it's bloody appalling.

I understand appointing mods and making charters takes time, but i have to agree that it's natural people are asking what's going on when they were told three months ago there'd be updates and seemingly nothing has happened except poor BBOC trying to sort mod lists on fora.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499981#Comment_122499981

Good try, Tovarisch:-)