Electoral systems discussion

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122893618#Comment_122893618

Well, as a voter you can attempt to game the system, but you are putting the candidates in the order of your choice - even if it is a game to you to get your vote to travel as far as you can.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122893689#Comment_122893689

If I remember correctly in Australia they have this thing of voting "above" or "below" the line, where (i think) above means de-facto just voting for a party who submitted a pre-determined voting sequence.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122894817#Comment_122894817

In elections for the House of Representatives there are single-seat constituencies, so each party nominates just one candidate. Voters rank the candidates in the order of their preference, as in Ireland. The lowest-polling candidates are successively eliminated, and their votes distributed, until one candidate has more than 50% of the vote, at which point that candidate is elected.

(Note that voting is compulsory in Australia, which is generally understood to mean that you have to express a preference as between all the candidates; otherwise your vote is incomplete. This is a bizarre notion, to my mind, but that's how it is.)

It's more complicated in the Senate. Each State is a single constituency electing usually six, but sometimes twelve, senators. (Each state has 12 senators; normally half stand down at each election; but in some circumstances all 12 seats are vacated and must be filled at the same election). Each party therefore nominates up to 12 candidates and all nominate a minimum of 2, since vacancies arising during the parliamentary term are not filled by by-election but by installing the party's highest-ranked unelected candidate from the last election, so every party needs to have a runner-up candidate available to fill any vacancy that may arise. As there are many minor and single-issue parties, that results in an enormous number of candidates and a commensurately large ballot paper. For example, at the 2016 election, which was one where all senate seats were to be filled, in my state of Western Australia there were 79 candidates on the ballot.

There's a feeling that voters can't be expected to form and express individual preferences among that number of candidates, and most voters are choosing candidates by party anyway. So there is an option on the ballot paper to vote "above the line"; you ignore the list of 79 candidates and instead just vote by party. (There's a thick black line across the ballot paper with the individual candidates named below and the parties named above; hence the expression "vote above the line" for voting by party rather than by candidate.) If you give a preference to a party, that's treated as if you had given six successive preferences to the candidates of that party, in an order determined by the party when the candidates are nominated. This allows the party, rather than the voters, to determine which of the party's candidates are most likely to be elected and which are almost certain not to be.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122892773#Comment_122892773

Having worked as a poll clerk in the recent local & European elections, I can assure you that there were a small but significant number of voters who didn’t understand how to vote in our PR-STV system and asked for instruction on what to do and were anxious about how far down the ballot they had to number their preferences.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122893689#Comment_122893689

It's far from a game. it's maximising the benefits arising from my vote.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122898047#Comment_122898047

But there are only 3 outcomes with your vote:

1. It's used to elect somebody.
2. It's goes to the last non-elected candidate.
3. It becomes non transferable and dies.

I don't know how you can maximise the benefits of your vote?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122898626#Comment_122898626

There are edge cases where your transfer pattern could save someones expenses on the way to electing someone.

Also, giving a "no hoper" a 1st preference may show them that, actually, there's x00 or x000 voters in the area for them may keep them going rather than have them give up.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122898837#Comment_122898837

Yep, your second paragraph - I'm 99% certain that my 1, 2, 3 won't get elected, so they'll get the vote from me, and then it will continue on to the next beneficiary.

4 might get elected, but if not, 5 probably will. Having said that, I'll continue voting preferences for all but the Nazi candidate, just in case.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122893618#Comment_122893618

But it's only rational to preference no-hoper A over in-with-a-chance B if would rather A was elected than B was.

In other words, you're numbering the candidates in the order of your preference, which is not complicated. You've voting in the same way that you would vote if you completely disregarded the candidates' chances of being elected.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122899187#Comment_122899187

Actually no, I wouldn't rather that any of my 1, 2, 3 were elected. If this was a FPTP system, I'd be giving the X to my number 4. But with STV, I can give support to 1, 2 and 3 knowing that my vote will travel to 4 in the end.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122899344#Comment_122899344

It's irrational to give support to 1, 2 and 3 ahead of 4 if, in fact, you would prefer 4 to be elected.

Remember, you have only one vote, and it can only be effective for one candidate. The only way to have a prospect of your vote being effective for 1, 2 or 3 is to accept a risk that it will not be effective for 4. And, if 4 is in fact your preference, why would you do this?

This is similar to putting medicine in Trinity as your first choice on the CAO form because there is very little chance that you will get the points likely to be required, and putting the course you actually want to do, agricultural science in Tralee, in second place.

(Plus, by giving your first preference to candidate 1 when he is not your preferred candidate, you remove any incentive for him to do whatever he has to do to become your preferred candidate. You're sending the wrong signal here, letting him think that he is already your preferred candidate.)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122899344#Comment_122899344

I think that your voting pattern is the very essence of gaming the system - to no value to anyone - and in fact going against the very essence of the purpose of the PR-STV system. The voter is required to put their preferences in the order of their choice which you admit that you are not doing that.

You are giving your No. 1 choice to some candidate you do not agree with and do not want to get elected, but you just want to get the counting staff to do a bit of worthless effort. Some would see that as a joke, while others would consider it reprehensible.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122899505#Comment_122899505

My vote IS my choice. Who are you to tell me or anyone else how to vote? The only reprehensible thing around here is your idea that you get to tell others how to vote.

People vote for all kinds of reasons, gender, looks, geography, family history. They're all valid and you don't get to tell others how to vote.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122899355#Comment_122899355

That's the point though. With this tactic, my vote CAN be effective for more than one candidate, though in slightly different ways. For my 1, 2 and 3 candidates, it's a little pat on the shoulder, a sign of support, a 'keep up all the good work' signal. I'd suggest it has exactly the reverse motivation that you suggested - encouraging them to stay in the game and do what it takes to get closer to the line next time.

You're right to say there is a risk of unintended consequences, though it would generally take a VERY large swing of support to a party or candidate for this risk to actually occur.

Brussels Sprout

I'll often give my first preference vote to some no-hoper candidate. I did it in the Euros with an independent candidate and I'm going to do it today for the Greens. Their candidate hasn't a hope of getting elected in Cork South Central but I'd like to do my part in ensuring that they'll hit the 2% mark nationally that is required to get their government funding for the next 5 years. I see my #2 preference as my effective vote and that will go to a candidate who will be fighting it out for the final seat.

If we were using FPTV I would not be voting Green. Such is the beauty of our system.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900318#Comment_122900318

I wonder if the Greens in CSC don't have an ouside shot? They got 2 candidates elected in the local elections in the city council southside. Although I do think she'll be 3rd of the soft left candidates, behind Soc Dem and Labour.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900413#Comment_122900413

No I don't believe so. They couldn't get a seat last time even when they had the tide nationally. Their candidate is based in Carrigaline which Seamus McGrath absolutely dominates (plus FG have a candidate there too). And yeah as you say the soft-left lane already has a couple of viable candidates (3 if you count Mick Finn although I'm not too up on his politics).

Inforapenny

A couple of questions if someone would be so kind to answer:

1. Do you have to put in second, third choices & so on on the ballot paper or can you just put in your first choice if you don’t want anything for the other candidates?
2. I changed a number of months back the electorate that I was registered for as I moved house. Yet I received an election card to both my old and new house. I presume I can only vote once? How did they not update their records after I made the change on check the register.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900607#Comment_122900607

On first point - you can go down as far as you want. If you really don't care about order after a certain point (even if that's after your first preference) then you can stop.

On second point - vote once. The registers are currently still maintained by the local authorities, but there is a plan (I think) to consolodate them all into 1 which should improve this.

Brussels Sprout

Deleted - Wrong thread

Enter Username Here

Hi, I have a couple of questions hopefully somebody could answer.

Are candidates allowed near a polling station on the day?

If not, how do they vote, or are they allowed near to vote and that is all?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122901980#Comment_122901980

Yes, they're allowed in to vote. But they can't canvass or otherwise attempt to influence things within 100 metres of the polling station. Relevant section of the Electoral Act is here:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/section/147/enacted/en/html

Enter Username Here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902001#Comment_122902001

Thanks.

Would bringing in a tray of confectionery for the workers in the polling station be considered breaking those rules?

Hugging all of the women workers, and shaking hands with all of the men while announcing that they have brought cakes and buns for all of the workers. While people are trying to get in and out to vote, they were standing at tables delaying people.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902121#Comment_122902121

That would be up to a judge to decide if it counted as influence, but theres zero chance of it being prosecuted anyway

corkie

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41527286.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky

Source: - https://bsky.app/profile/irishexaminer.bsky.social/post/3lc4ih32dzs2o

Interesting, was also reported in the live feed on RTENews.

I'm pick up on this because of the errors, I found in the 'whichcandidate' tool and the mock ballots they gave.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902618#Comment_122902618

If its challenged and they win, then it really says we need to randomise the order of the papers.

awec

lol pretty much a 3 way tie for first preference.

19 FF, 21 FG, 21.1 SF

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902870#Comment_122902870

Others: -

It indicates Green Party first preference support stands at 4%; Labour at 5%; the Social Democrats at 5.8%; People Before Profit-Solidarity at 3.1%; and Independents at 12.7%, Independent Ireland 2.2% with others on 1.9%. ~~ https://www.rte.ie/news/post/104570530

Glad the Social Democrats got a good result in that!

Source: -

https://bsky.app/profile/news.rte.ie/post/3lc4mvq6xf22w

Other than the top 3, a wide spread of support across the others?

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902683#Comment_122902683

Randomising might make it harder to distinguish the Eoin Ó Broin's

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122909468#Comment_122909468

The big party logo will help.