Electoral systems discussion

corkie

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0924/1471762-electronic-vote-counting/

• The electronic counting of votes could be considered for future elections if the trend of large numbers of candidates on ballot papers continues.
• He said he did not believe there was an appetite for electronic voting, but that electronic counting is something that could be considered.
• It is not something for today or tomorrow, but perhaps down the line if this persists as a problem and there isn't any viable solution from a ballot-paper design perspective, it is something that we might have a look at," he said.

So is it something in consideration for the future. Hardly be implemented for the next GE anyway.

EnPassant

The votes cast in the 3 constituencies of Dublin North, Dublin West and Meath in 2002 (the 3 constituencies that used electronic voting) were published as spreadsheets.

There is a link here showing the number of preferences cast in Meath - several thousand (about 3 or 4%) voted for all 14 candidates:- https://www.researchgate.net/figure/In-the-2002-Irish-election-for-meath-constituency-most-of-the-voters-rank-only-3-to-5_fig1_359687608
I looked at them at the time - as far as I can remember they were almost entirely unique.

It would certainly be possible to send a personalised leaflet to every voter in a constituency, with a unique set of preferences on each leaflet, requesting/instructing voters to vote as per the leaflet, and pointing out that you would know whether they had complied or not.

hotmail.com

I see they're talking about our farcical electoral system and register on Prime Time now.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651134#Comment_122651134

Quote [It would certainly be possible to send a personalised leaflet to every voter in a constituency, with a unique set of preferences on each leaflet, requesting/instructing voters to vote as per the leaflet, and pointing out that you would know whether they had complied or not.]

For what purpose would anyone bother with that? The release of raw data would be anonymised, and probably delayed by a year or more. Who would try this out, and who would pay the required bribes? And how would they escape detection?

Not even 1984 suggested that. If fixing the vote, why not just stuff the ballots into the boxes like all good tyrants do?

Nonsense.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651134#Comment_122651134

Yes, but you're not explaining why anyone would do this. There are much, much easier and cheaper ways to get yourself sent to prison.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651172#Comment_122651172

The electoral system is excellent, the electoral register is farcical.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122650881#Comment_122650881

No need for any of that nonsense. Dail elections are not a problem. Just raise the ludicriously low bar to enter the EP elections slightly.

I am really not a fan of the idea of votes disappearing into an electronic "black box" and then as if by magic a result appears.

If we don't count all the votes manually we can't trust it. If we do count all the votes manually, we're just wasting money on the electronic count.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652671#Comment_122652671

I wouldn't say excellent. The counting of votes is imprecise.

hotmail.com

The Electoral Commission is called An Comisiun Toghcháin.

What sort of name is that?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652712#Comment_122652712

Irish? We're in Ireland?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653768#Comment_122653768

It's not a comment on Irish.

It's just a ridiculous name that no one will use.

EnPassant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651235#Comment_122651235

The vote data would obviously be released immediately as happened in 2002.

And though the data is anonymized, the large number of possible combinations mean that it is possible
a) for a voter to prove that they voted in a particular way
b) for someone to ask a voter to vote in a particular way, and to know if the voter complied
Neither of the above is possible using a paper system.

I had a quick google and I found the Dublin North vote data at

https://web.archive.org/web/20060103234059/http%3A//www.dublincountyreturningofficer.com/Results/Votes_Dublin_North.zip

There were 12 candidates - 3662 of the 43942 voters voted for all 12 candidates . Only 12 of these votes were not unique.
All 597 votes with 11 preferences were unique.
All 676 votes with 10 preferences were unique.

Below are the first 10 votes as an example of the format of the file:-

Mixed Vote No.	Boland,Cathal,F.G.	Daly,Clare,S.P.	Davis,Mick,S.F.	Glennon,Jim,F.F.	Goulding,Ciaran,Non-P	Kennedy,Michael,F.F.	Owen,Nora,F.G.	Quinn,Eamonn,Non-P	Ryan,Seán,Lab	Sargent,Trevor,G.P.	Walshe,David Henry,C.C. CSP	Wright,G.V.,F.F.
1				2								1
2				1			3					2
3				1		2			4			3
4				3		2		4		5		1
5	3								2	1
6	5	2			4		3			1
7						1	3					2
8	2	7	12	1	6	8	3	11	5	4	10	9
9	4			5			2		3	1
10	4					5	2	6		1		3

Sam Russell

@EnPassant

What are you on about?

1. It is unlikely anyone would be bothered with buying votes, and if they were not buying votes, why would they be concerned how votes were cast?
2. How would the vote buyer be sure that the authorities would not sus what was going on and prosecute the organisers?
3. And just why????

This looks like a scheme dreamt up by a very young child looking for a scam to infect the underworld, probably with the assistance of Spiderman.

The fact that a possible flaw might exist in a system does not make it likely to be used, or if used, to be undetected, and even if undetected, would be worth doing at all.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651134#Comment_122651134

We used to do that a long time ago, like when Enda Kenny was a young fella….. it did not work! We though of all those tricks a long time ago and most failed. The Irish voting system is long established, very much favoured by the voters - they have rejected proposals to change it twice and people have great confidence in the integrity of the process. So the chances of getting to chance it are pretty well zero.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122654174#Comment_122654174

One of the reasons why the Irish people think the system is great is because Irish people tell themselves it's great.

They ignore the numerous issues and problems with the system, beginning with the electoral register and the process/ difficulty in voting. The farcical counting process where the electoral officer picks a bundle to count for the surplus etc etc.

Btw the machines would have dealt with this surplus issue.

They should have experimented with the machines for a local election first. It scared too many people doing at a general election. Irish people often not open to change.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653904#Comment_122653904

Why is it any more ridiculous than "the Electoral Commission"?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122654871#Comment_122654871

The electoral register is a separate issue to the voting system and needs to be sorted regardless of how we vote.

What is the difficulty in voting?

What are the other numerous problems with the current system?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655094#Comment_122655094

100% of the population understand the words "The Electoral Commission", care to hazard a guess how many know what "Toghcháin" means?

This forced linguistical rebranding nonsense is an increasing trend across the public sector. Imagine what things will be like if/when SF get in… we're already wasting lots of taxpayers' money on advertising the vast majority of them can't understand. On TG4 / RnaG / Irish language publications, fine, but the audience for English language media is… surprise surprise.. English speaking.

Who exactly does this benefit and who decided this was a good use of resources?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655341#Comment_122655341

Comisiun na Mean is another one for the Media Regulator. Ridiculous.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655341#Comment_122655341

There is no rebranding. The body in question was only established in 2023 and has been known by this name since its establishment.

It seems to me, though, that you are calling for a rebranding now, in which case the onus is really on you to say how much you think should be spent on the exercise, who will benefit from it, and why this would be a good use of resources.

And I do not think the Irish people are as stupid as you suppose. Over the years they have managed perfectly well with Bord na Móna, Bord Bia, RTÉ, CIÉ, Aer Rianta, Aer Lingus, etc without any outbreaks of mass incomprehension. If you have evidence that people struggle with the name of this particular body, now would be a good time to produce it.

Hotblack Desiato

Pedantic in the extreme.

There's a lot more than a bikeshed being wasted on this rubbish every week.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655413#Comment_122655413

So is Screen Ireland … oh wait … !

I am sure there are many that never heard of the IRTC, BCI or the BAI.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653904#Comment_122653904

Bord Na Mona called to disagree with you.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122654123#Comment_122654123

.Tell me that you don't work in security without telling me that you don't work in security.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651235#Comment_122651235

Because we have lots of controls that prevent ballot stuffing.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655635#Comment_122655635

You're so-called rebranding is totally fictional; it exists only in your own head; and pointing this out is "pedantic"?

I don't think that word means what you think it means, Hottie.

Hotblack Desiato

It's taking the place of the Referendum Commission. Nobody felt the need to brand that in Irish.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657799#Comment_122657799

It's a completely different body with a much broader set of functions. Its functions do include the functions previously carried on by the Refernedum Commission, but the constitutional principle that a body which inherits the functions of a body that was named in English must itself be named in English was abandoned as long ago as 1945, when Córas Iompair Éireann took over the functions previously discharged by Great Southern Railways and the Dublin United Tramways Company. Mass confusion did not result. Keep up, Hotblack!

[For the record, An Chomisiún Toghcháin has (and has always had) two names and it uses both, as a visit to its website (with the telling address of electoralcommission.ie) will verify.]

Hotblack Desiato

Good example of why we should never have e-voting / e-counting:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr75mpkm7nro

A former Colorado county election official has been sentenced to nine years in prison for tampering with voting machines after the 2020 presidential election.

Tina Peters, a Republican, was convicted last August on most counts against her in the election interference case.

Peters helped breach Mesa County's election computer systems and allowed an unauthorised individual to access voting equipment and election records.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655451#Comment_122655451

How many people know what CIE stands for, or what Mona, Rianta, or Lingus mean?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682194#Comment_122682194

At least as many as need to for the entities concerned to be able to discharge their function without mass public confusion.