Electoral systems discussion

Brussels Sprout

For those that are interested in Electoral Systems in other countries, there are several ballot initiatives on how elections are to be run in the future, in different American states in the upcoming election. Full details in the article below. The common trend seems to be a willingness to move away from partisan party primaries and also in some cases a consideration of ranked choice voting.

I think it's very telling that it's the Republican party that is vehemently opposing ranked choice voting in many cases. Their party in Alaska, enraged by a Democrat winning the House seat there, is bucking the trend with a ballot initiative to reverse open primaries and ranked choice voting.

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/24/nx-s1-5091048/election-ballot-measures-nonpartisan-primaries-ranked-choice-voting

Hotblack Desiato

They know what the organisation does but not what the words mean.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683168#Comment_122683168

Same for most companies TBH, KLM, Lufthansa, BMW, Volkswagon.

Not sure if this is Electoral system related, but is 5 years 2 long for a term?

Should we reduce it to 4 years, I feel 3 years would be too short, I think that is the term in New Zealand.

Hotblack Desiato

Let's reduce the attention span of our politicians even further? Eh, no.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683122#Comment_122683122

They need to return to a paper based same day counting system first , they are never even sure of their vote count, total clown world, get that right and let whatever preference system they want bubble up.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683930#Comment_122683930

Well, the USA uses two years for Congress, 4 years for President, 6 years for senators with two senators per State, and lifetime for Supreme Court judges.

And their system if full of gerrymandering, corruption and blatant partisan interference.

So which would you choose - ours of a 5 year maximum providing the Gov maintains confidence of the Dail - or the USA system?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686660#Comment_122686660

No. The narrative that there are issues with the counting of votes is a myth peddled by Trump cultists trying to push The Big Lie.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687261#Comment_122687261

Interesting bit of whataboutary, I didn't mention anything other than a 4 year term. Also the 4 year term would only be if the Dail had confidence in the Gov.

4 years for TDs (if Gov has confidence)

4 years for Senators (not sure if I would decouple them from the Dail confidence, allow 4 year elections for Senators)

4 years for MEPs

4 years for Local Councilors

5 years seems too much for MEPs and Local Councilors that don't have that extra bit of no confidence built in, same for our soon to be elected Mayors.

Certainly a reduction in the Presidential term to at most 5, 7 years is far too long.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687341#Comment_122687341

point is its an argument that wouldnt make sense in Ireland , there they have all kinds of weird practices like ballot harvesting, the Dems used to complain about electronic voting being hackable (them Russian hackers lol) , will be great craic to see which side complains this time.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687341#Comment_122687341

There's just been an official in the US jailed for 9 years for attempting to do precisely that. She was a Republican as it turns out.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687376#Comment_122687376

4 years for MEPs is impossible. Has to be a full term elected at the same time as everywhere else.

Senate has to coincide with the Dáil elections while the Taoiseach retains nomination powers.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689232#Comment_122689232

We should talk to our EU partners about the 5 year term and get them to move to 4 years.

Senate needs to be formed, such nominees no longer existing, but… maybe … Taoiseach nominees could exit on the appointment of a new Taoiseach and that if they are reappointed that they can only sit for the remainder of their 4 year term at which point they must either retire or be reappointed.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687376#Comment_122687376

You can make an argument for 4 years in the Dáil as the last year is usually spent preparing for the next election (as we are right now). However, if you make it a shorter term then the same will happen, just earlier.

I feel 5 years for the Dáil makes sense. It's long enough to get some work done. It's also long enough for people to consider running for election. If you have to give up a job for a term of 2 or 3 years you might be less likely to run, and we don't want the Dáil to only be filled with people who can afford to run (this is why the pay for TDs needs to be high too).

The seanad is, unless there is a bit of work done to the constitution, tied to the Dáil. I could see a scenario where the Seanad and Dáil terms are separated but only if the Seanad is given it's own power that is distinct to the Dáil (and not just simply approving Dáil bills).

I don't mind the council running for 5 years but don't have any real problem if this was shortened.

European seats are 5 years and that won't change, and I don't think it should anyway. It is a big job, needs a chunk of time to get into the role properly and, as per Dáil elections, we want people to not be put off in giving up their current jobs to run.

Presidential elections I don't really know about. I did a quick check of a few ceremonial presidents and the terms are 6 years for Austria, 5 years for Germany, 5 years for Greece, 5 years for India, 7 years for Israel, 7 years for Italy, 5 years for Malta, 5 years for Trinidad & Tobago. So 7 years isn't an outlier, but it is long. I think in the days of Dev or O'Kelly when the presidency was a quiet role it made sense for it to be as long as it was, but there is an argument now that the presidency is much more visible that a shorter term is a good idea.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692579#Comment_122692579

Seanad is a waste of space and it doesn't matter who is in there.

Changing them more often would just lead to further pension entitlements. It's a bit of a joke of an institution (not even having the pomp and ceremony part of our powerless president).

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692579#Comment_122692579

The Commission takes so long to get going that the chances of the EU reducing the term is nil

RoTelly

European seats are 5 years and that won't change, and I don't think it should anyway. It is a big job, needs a chunk of time to get into the role properly and, as per Dáil elections, we want people to not be put off in giving up their current jobs to run.

The problem is that they are also tied to the President of the European Commission who will now be in her for for 10 years, I think 2 terms of 4 would be better for a largely non-elected political role.

rock22

@RoTelly "President of the European Commission …. I think 2 terms of 4 would be better for a largely non-elected political role."

Why?

Considering that ~ 4 months are spent getting the new commissioners in place and working then shortening the term is simple reducing further the amount of time for any useful work.

4 yrs is way too short for any governmental role. 7 yrs is too long. 5 seems about right to me.

What needs reform is the Seanad and local authorities in Ireland. There should be universal suffrage for the Seanad, otherwise is it simple a totally undemocratic institution at the heart of out government. It would take little to organise that everyone had a vote in an educational constituency and that everyone has a vote on a vocational panel. Seanad elections could happen on a more regular cycle than the Dáil elections.

We have way too many local authorities, all with little power and even less effectiveness. If we need local government, and there is a good argument that a nation of 5 million people really doesn't, then it should be organised on reasonable size population. Get rid of counties and set up five or six reasonable size local bodies. At the moment the councils serve little use except to train Political Party candidates for their elevation to the Dáil at some future time.

Personally, i would not want health, policing or education to be in any way, subject to local authority control as it exists now.

RoTelly

@rock22

We have way too many local authorities, all with little power and even less effectiveness. If we need local government, and there is a good argument that a nation of 5 million people really doesn't, then it should be organised on reasonable size population. Get rid of counties and set up five or six reasonable size local bodies. At the moment the councils serve little use except to train Political Party candidates for their elevation to the Dáil at some future time.

How many small nations do not have local government? Iceland has 62! down from 229 since 1953. Denmark has 92!

This idea of getting setup before the role starts, is there not a point where the incumbent stays in position until the new person is elected to the role and the official able to take the position?

Must we give everyone a "honeymoon" period?

Podge_irl

There is zero chance of the EU Parliament and Commission term changing. The timeline for their legislative efforts is already measured in years at the best of times. Cutting a year off the term is a complete non-runner.

I also, frankly, don't see the point or what it is supposed to accomplish.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692725#Comment_122692725

Changing Seanad terms would have zero impact on pension entitlements.

It's still a stupid suggestion though, a solution looking for a problem.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693665#Comment_122693665

Do they still get termination payments or was that stopped as well post 2004? (which would happen more often with shorter terms).

Senators may be laughing but the taxpayers are not | Irish Independent

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693665#Comment_122693665

I am not sure why it is a stupid suggestion and I don't see why it would cause problems, who would it cause problems for?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708045#Comment_122708045

What's the benefit of changing the seanad term is the point…

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708051#Comment_122708051

what is the benefit of not doing it? My question was is a definite 5 year term too long for Local Government / MEPs and is a potential 5 year term too long for government, and should Seanad elections be decoupled from the Dail elections.

For me the benefit on locals and MEPs is that the vote is held more regularly allowing for a change of public opinion and for the seanad a potential for a mid-term election, though fuller reform is required.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708840#Comment_122708840

Then why 4 years? Why not every four months?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708840#Comment_122708840

Why is that better though?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708840#Comment_122708840

So you want more fickle political leaders and less strategic thinking. Why don't we go the hole hog and have all political decisions done by online vote on social media. What could possibly go wrong?

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708875#Comment_122708875

Why 5 years why not every 5 months?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709153#Comment_122709153

Outlined I think it might be better for democracy particularly in terms that are set, rather than where you might have a vote of no confidence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709282#Comment_122709282

Why do you think we will get more fickle political leaders than we already have? Do any think strategically in reality?

I am only reducing the term by 1 year, why not increase to 6 years?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709318#Comment_122709318

Because making any legislation change takes considerable time and effort,and takes time away from serious priorities. You need good reasons to make changes. Do you have any?

Hotblack Desiato

What is wrong with votes of confidence?

The idea of fixed term parliaments was tried in the UK and it was a bad idea - since revoked.

Remember late 2010 when the FF-Green government was hanging on for grim death, and was clearly detested by the electorate who wanted them gone asap?

They managed to hang on for a few months into early 2011 but imagine if they'd had to hang on for more than a year until the next fixed election date.

How would preventing an election in that scenario be good for democracy?