Electoral systems discussion

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043568#Comment_123043568

The current situation in the USA with Trump behaving as if he is already President, selling or seeming to sell favours to the various billionaires who had yet to align with him. Putting wack-jobs into positions that allow them to lay waste large areas of the federal government. Any idiot can be put into almost any position in the Gov with few requiring approval by the Senate. Trump manage in his last sojourn in the White House to pack the judiciary at all levels with Republican candidates. So now the Repubicans control all levels of the USA political and judicial centres of power.

Is that a system we could live with?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044044#Comment_123044044

That's not really an electoral system distinction, it is a governmental system distinction. The US is not a parliamentary democracy.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044044#Comment_123044044

…yup, our system is pretty amazing when compared to the alternatives, pr-stv is pretty damn good at preventing wack jobs from getting into government, so long may it live, and with the addition of the citizens assembly, we re looking pretty good for a while to, while we sit back and watch other countries fall apart….

…we should be proud of ourselves due to this, again, our system has shown to be one of the better, helping to produce a far more stable outcome compared to….

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044093#Comment_123044093

Well, we do have a serious weakness.

There is frequent bandwagon issue phenomenon where a particular issue suddenly, from nowhere, becomes super important and political parties begin to auction solutions to that issue.

We have seen this with the retirement age issue that had to remain at 66 despite the forecast of its inevitable very high cost due the increase in life expectancy and ageing population. Again with the 100% redress for faulty blocks and crumbling houses. There are many more examples.

This is a serious problem as it gives rise instability in the political structures to form a government. Small ginger groups can dictate significant deviation of funds to a small group.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044459#Comment_123044459

there will always been shortfalls in whatever system is implemented, including pr-stv, but again, we see what happens with alternatives such as fptp, which commonly results in far more extremes and the instabilities produced, we can clearly see america is completely unable to reverse out of its black hole, with every new admin becoming progressively worse than the last, is that what we truly want!

im very proud our system defaults to far more stable, more centrist outcomes, than alternatives extremes, its a sign of political and social maturity.

the issues mentioned are valid, but would probably be much worse if an alternative such as fptp was in place.

id have to agree with maintaining current retirement ages, there are actual alternatives to raising this age, by simply taxing wealth and wealthier entities more, appropriately redistributing this wealth, including increasing investments in critical needs, housing, health care, infrastructure etc etc, probably wont happen to an appropriate level though, but again, all of those issues would probably be much worse with alternatives, as can be seen in other countries, america etc…

pr smooths out issues compared to fptp, although theres still issues, but….

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044459#Comment_123044459

Not sure if that is cultural or systemic. Can understand the argument of lowest-common-denominator oppose-everything independents hoovering up 4th and below preferences on parish-pump policies, but trying to get rid of "gridlock" soon becomes an argument against democracy itself.

Think the major reason why STV survived in Ireland is because the alternative presented in 1958 and 1968 was FPTP.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123043568#Comment_123043568

Well given that we might be having an Independant Healy-Rae as a junior minister, isn't it obvious?

First of all, the party manifestos published before an election are nonsense. Because no one party will get a majority, so you will never get what they promised.

Secondly, the election is half the act, but the real act are the discussions behind closed doors between parties and TD's on how a new goverment will be formed, what the programe will look like, and who gets what jobs. Again, all without the input of the electorate.

I get that every system is a comprimise. While our sytem is very consensus based and affords people to vote for many differnent parties and candiates, that does have its drawbacks. We will be lucky to get a government on the 22nd of January, almost 2 months after the election itself. One wonders, what is the purpose of government so?

Lastly, I think the poltical system and the way to do things, is indicative of a wider issue we have in Ireland, where it takes an age to do anything meaningful, build anything, plan something, fund it, and so on.
You say speed isnt a virtue, but unfortunately, it is or should be. But sure, when it takes 20 years to design, plan and build a road why are you so sure of yourself?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044093#Comment_123044093

Our electoral system has little to do with Ireland being politically stable.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044459#Comment_123044459

We have an extremely high number of non-party or independents elected for a EU state.
Does anyone else in Europe have this many in their national parliament?

Maybe a list system would be better.

Other weakness is our Senate. It doesn't really matter, and most people dont even get a vote. But that is a topic for another day.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044502#Comment_123044502

id have to agree with maintaining current retirement ages, there are actual alternatives to raising this age, by simply taxing wealth and wealthier entities more, appropriately redistributing this wealth, including increasing investments in critical needs, housing, health care, infrastructure etc etc, probably wont happen to an appropriate level though, but again, all of those issues would probably be much worse with alternatives, as can be seen in other countries, america etc…

The pension age issue was a fiasco last time out. Everyone knows that we have to raise it, but we pretend its not a problem. Peter Pan stuff.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044937#Comment_123044937

seriously!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123044956#Comment_123044956

…and again, increasing taxes on wealth and wealth accumulation, and better redistribution of said, could very well prevent this from happening, probably wont happen though, so we ll just go with making sure we further screwing over younger generations, as they ll be the ones working into their 70's!

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123045081#Comment_123045081

'Better' redistrubution… even though we have THE most progressive income taxation regime in the OECD. Ireland is quite a hard country to build wealth in, unless you are of the super-rich, and they can just leave and go elsewhere.

Such chat is like transubstantiation, we can turn water into wine if we just…try…hard..enough.. or pray!

Again Peter Pan stuff, or perhaps more biblical miracle stuff.

As to the young, they are already paying higher PRSI as we did not raise the pension age, so its already beginning. Better to raise the age to 70 and keep income taxes and PRSI lower.