Why dont more people use mopeds/scooters?

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140486#Comment_122140486

Very rarely I see the "fully legal" ebikes which cut out at 25… Have the GPS speed on my Garmin watch and there's plenty of times I've been doing over 30kph only to see escooters spin off into the distance, at that speed i'd want to wear a full face helmet and knee/elbow pads…

Also thought i'd outpace one guy on a small wheeled fat tyre bike going downhill at 45kph only to see him cruising along at a steady 50kph…

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140248#Comment_122140248

25km/h is an EU ruling so won't be changed, that's where you need to get an AM Licence.

As I said before the big question is will this be another ignored law or will the Gardai be stopping and issuing summons for no insurance on Monday morning.

z80CPU

Office workers because mopeds are not a status symbol rather quite the opposite. In fact someone in a pin stripe suite looks a bit silly on moped

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141494#Comment_122141494

That hasn't really been my experience, I'd say the majority are legal ebikes. There is a significant minority, in particular amongst the food delivery types, I think they just stand out more as they are going so fast and some of those ebikes look more like a moped. Regular ebikes more blend in as they aren't going all that much faster then most fit cyclists and they look more like normal bikes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141835#Comment_122141835

Yep. Interestingly the UK is considering changing their law to allow ebikes to have a throttle and higher power (but same 25km/h speed limit). I know it isn't part of the EU, but it is starting a conversation across the EU about what should and shouldn't be allowed.

After all EU regulations can be changed, they aren't set in stone.

BTW the extra power isn't really about speed, but is more needed by the likes of cargo bikes, the current limit is a bit too low for them if you are carrying a signficant load.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141841#Comment_122141841

Errr… Few office workers wear pinstripe suits these days! It is jeans and t-shirts for many these days.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142044#Comment_122142044

Next time I'll bring the GoPro…

Well aware of what the legal ebikes look like, as well as the ones Deliveroo bikers use and what an electric moped looks like.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142044#Comment_122142044

That hasn't really been my experience, I'd say the majority are legal ebikes. There is a significant minority, in particular amongst the food delivery types, I think they just stand out more as they are going so fast and some of those ebikes look more like a moped. Regular ebikes more blend in as they aren't going all that much faster then most fit cyclists and they look more like normal bikes.

I've seen plenty where the riders aren't pedalling from small folding ebikes to ebikes with number plate holders, so they are illegal, and I've also seen escooters doing >60km/h.

Feck all food delivery people use bikes in my area, though plenty of deliveries are done with illegal ebikes.

Anaki r2d2

It would be great to see more scooters on the streets, just like Milan:

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141212#Comment_122141212

Reminds me Billy Connolly's wire brush and Dettol treatment of a particular condition.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142137#Comment_122142137

I most get a GoPro myself (actually have one, most dig it out and get a bike mount), to catch all the motoroists illegally parking in bus and cycle lanes in front of schools (again this morning!) and running red lights. Frankly I'm much more worried about them then some mods to an ebike!

To be honest, I've little concern to folks using throttled ebikes going 25 to 30km/h. It is the big heavy ones going 45km/h possibly in a cycle lane that I do think are taking the piss.

Ubbquittious

Anti-moped laws. Since 2006 no free license with your car license

Insurance isnt straightforward

traco

I reckon the biggest issue is barrier to entry and our culture. In thhe 70/80's mopeds, scooters and small motorbikes were a common stepping stone into private transportation but that path has declined significantly over the decades which IMO is a shame.

The auto license for the 50cc stuff is gone so you need to do the full test and to be honest I'd prefer a bicycle than a 50cc that is under pressure when out in traffic. Getting all legal is expensive so relaitistially its cheaper for a yound person now to just go straight to the car and even if they don't own a car they can use the gocar hourly options when needed. Then throw in the weather and safety arguements and the become a hard sell.

I think they are great though andI've been considering a scooter and keep looking at the maxi scooters. There isn't a huge selection used and they are expensive so then you wonder why not go full bike (have a full bike licence) and round and round it goes.

As for the small little stand on ones - any amount of them from China all doing 45kph with large motors available for sub 1k. Not legal but no enforcement and I see many on my morning commute on my electric Brompton which oddly enough is well cpapable of 30kph on pedal power alone. 100psi small tyres have a very low rolling resitance and its not that heavy. Yes its cheating away from the lights but I love it even if I look like an elephant on a toy bike.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141212#Comment_122141212

Australia has a desperate record towards vulnerable road users. Some of the fines for not wearing a helmet (they actually made it illegal to cycle without a helmet) on a bike are stiffer than those for speeding motorists.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144341#Comment_122144341

Irrelevant, the subject at hand here is the Scooter. The difference is also that someone could be pedalling along a bicycle lane at an average speed of say 20kph only to have eBikers with those illegal bolt on hub kits flying past at double the speed.

This morning I drove behind a guy I see most mornings driving his eScooter along some backroads whilst sitting down and I was travelling at 45kph behind him, I'm sure it would be capable of 50kph..

Will the Gards stop him? Doubt it..

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144480#Comment_122144480

They were a stepping stone before car buying back then, though there was a core of Honda 50 users (usually older men) who never bought a car.

But yes, lessons and tests, insurance, weather, real and perceived safety fears largely killed them off. I'd like a scooter or a motorbike but the way people drive here, I'd rather be in my steel cage thanks.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144555#Comment_122144555

I'm not sure why you are saying irrelevant! I'm mostly agreeing with you!

I definitely don't like the big heavy ebikes going 40 to 45km/h and I'd like to see enforcement of them.

I'm just saying I'm much less concerned with more regular size and weight ebikes that cut out at 25km/h and I don't think these sort matter much if they are pedal types or throttle types. It is the speed, size and weight which is really the main concern, not the throttle type.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144899#Comment_122144899

Throttle bikes definitely need to be treated the same as fossil fuel bikes, they're as much of a menace as I've seen them being used on public mountain bike trails..but that's another story again.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144518#Comment_122144518

Would you have a link for this desperate record?

Let's see, road deaths in 2020: Ireland vs murderous Australia:

pedestrians; 22% vs 12%

cyclists; 7% vs 4%

motorcyclists; 12% vs 17%

I don't see why you would be calling out Australia on this when Ireland could be argued to fare worse.

Studies have shown a reduction in head trauma and deaths in cyclists where cumpolsory helmet wearing for cyclists has been introduced. Australia may been first, but multiple other countries have followed suit.

magicbastarder

Studies have shown a reduction in head trauma and deaths in cyclists where cumpolsory helmet wearing for cyclists has been introduced. Australia may been first, but multiple other countries have followed suit.

this is actually true; injuries did reduce. but so did the number of cyclists; and it seems the rate of injury fell by less than the rate of fall of cyclists, leading one australian researcher (dorothy robinson is/was based in the university of new england) to this comment:

"suggesting that, far from protecting cyclists, the risk per cyclist of dying on the roads may have increased compared to what it would have been without the law."

https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1245.html

which goes back to one thing which AFAIK also shows a relationship - the more cyclists there are on the roads, the safer each cyclist becomes. so reducing the number of cyclists on the road actually exposes the remaining cyclists to greater danger.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145509#Comment_122145509

She was commenting on data relating to the 1990's.

Some people didn't agree with her approach or conclusions:

Robinson's arguments against helmet legislation are flawed, argue four professors of epidemiology from Canada and the US.

They challenge her interpretation of the data she presents and
point to several independent studies showing a protective association
between wearing bicycle helmets and head injuries. They also refer to
studies showing a reduction in head injuries after helmet legislation
was enacted.

Their analyses of the data from New South Wales show that, as the
proportion of helmeted cyclists increases, the proportion of bicycle
related head injuries decreases.

They also question Robinson's preference for time series studies
which address populations, as opposed to case-control studies, which
involve individuals, arguing that the latter provide much stronger
evidence. The North American experts dismiss her argument for risk
compensation as "pure speculation."

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145727#Comment_122145727

A weak rebuttal to her research. The idea that case studies are better than population level studies is total nonsense in this case.

A case study tells you that wearing a helmet protects against head injuries (well duh!), what it doesn't tell you is that overall cycling population decreases due to over regulation, that cycling behaviour actually becomes more risky with helmet wearing due to the perception of greater safety than they actually give, as well as other population level psychology findings. None of which will be picked up on by limited case studies. Case studies are what researchers use to come to a predetermined outcome

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145266#Comment_122145266

I honestly don't understand the difference?

Someone peddling (with electric assist) at 25km/h versus pressing a button and going 25km/h, on exactly the same bike!

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145800#Comment_122145800

i've just been looking up the figures, and it seems the percentage of people who cycle to work in ireland stayed steady at 3% between the 2016 and 2022 census; but in australia it went from 1.0% in 2016 to 0.7% in 2021. australia is near last worldwide in cycling popularity in any table i've seen.

worth a mention; the population in australia is signifcantly more urban than in ireland (86% vs 64%)

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp7/census2022profile7-employmentoccupationsandcommuting/commutingtowork/

https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/australias-journey-work

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146115#Comment_122146115

Pedal assist bikes are legal on cycle lanes, off-road cycling paths, if you're on a throttle bike which requires no pedal action then it's a moped/electrically propelled vehicle.

Henry Ford III

The weather is the main reason we don't have more mopeds on our roads.

magicbastarder

Lisbon gets more rain than Dublin.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147868#Comment_122147868

Didn't notice heaps of two wheeled transport in Lisbon though.

magicbastarder

it's very hilly!

was more a comment that dublin is not some weird outlier of european cities, in terms of weather, that people think it is. we're as close to paris as makes no odds (according to wikipedia, 641mm in paris annually vs 681mm in dublin. amsterdam gets 850mm).

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147802#Comment_122147802

Like others have said, rain is just as prevalent in other Northern European countries.

The actual reason is theft, theft and theft!

eBike/Moped/petrol motorbike theft is rampant in Dublin and other parts of the country and it's out of control in that there's not enough Garda presence to catch thieves and even so the punishment is usually a rap on the knuckles.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145315#Comment_122145315

I see this has been answered for you numerous times while I was away… but yes, if you take cyclists off the road there'll be less injuries and deaths as there's none around for cars to run over. Google "Australia hates cyclists" and you'll learn even more than what you're being taught here.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147220#Comment_122147220

I know perfectly well!

I'm saying I'd see no reason they couldn't change that law, while keeping the 25km/h cut out of the motor. Having a throttle option would be great for persons with disabilities, elderly, limited motion, etc. while making no difference in terms of safety.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147890#Comment_122147890

Really! The public rental escooters are all over Lisbon, you nearly trip over them! Specially around the redeveloped docklands area, Santos, etc.

Cascais in particular is jam packed with both escooters and bikes both traditional and ebike. Of course that is partly due to the fantastic sceneic coastal cycle lane.