Strange issue with register of electors

magicbastarder

My wife has not lived at her parents house for over 20 years, but has just learned that she's been placed back on the register of electors there, and does not know who would have done that.

The address used is not one the family have ever used, so it definitely is not an old, valid, record that's somehow been resurrected. It's been suggested that a local councillor may have done it (something I've heard happening before).

She's waiting for her mother to get back to her as to whether a polling card arrived there for her at the recent referendums, which might help narrow down when this was done.

Anyway, is this common? Has it happened many other people?

(Not 100% sure if politics is the correct forum for this, it's not specifically a political discussion!)

L1011

Local councillors have not had the ability to add people to the register sans signature for decades.

If you correct your registration via the online portal it asks you for old records to remove; was that done and someone in the council made a major error and reactivated something that was already gone I wonder?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087401#Comment_122087401

Similar happened to me and my siblings.local councillor who my late father often canvassed for.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087440#Comment_122087440

How long ago, though?

Pre-online (which needs PPSN), all applications have needed a signature, and a verified one in the case of supplementary registrations, for ages and ages.

magicbastarder

She had to correct the register about fifteen years ago, same deal, she was readded without her knowledge. We've been living at this address for twelve years which is when she'd have last made any change herself.

Danzy

About a decade ago.

magicbastarder

Yeah, it happened a friend's entire family that a local councillor removed them all, but that was twenty five years ago at a rough guess.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349924/strange-issue-with-register-of-electors

Likely explanation is that the change was requested by an existing councillor. Would be interesting to know if the system has been provided with PPSN and DOB ( which would mean councillor had that info) or was the system overridden to ignore these fields ?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349924/strange-issue-with-register-of-electors

A Subject Access Request under GDPR might show what records were used by the Council to add her back in.

Madd002

My daughter (23) ended up with 2 polling cards & was named on list twice for same address at the recent referendum election. They were shocked nobody noticed.

I'd say there's no checking going on and it's up to your wife to fix it by contacting them and asking for it to be removed, on the other hand, if you say live in another county she goes by married name it wouldn't make a difference to election count whether she was registered or not as she wouldn't be voting from home and no one else could as you have to show ID.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088005#Comment_122088005

Having to show id is the exception. Most people aren't asked to show id.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087903#Comment_122087903

Unlikely.

Officials were probably just asked to put on OPs wife . No record created.

magicbastarder

Which would raise the question; who asked?

GNWoodd

There is very little checking going on as the resources simply aren’t there. Each council has thousands upon thousands of entries on the register.

The new system introduced in 2022 makes it even more laborious .Every entry made by the individual elector or potential elector has to be manually keyed onto the register. A online portal was a great idea in someone’s head but nobody thought of the work involved.

ID at the polling station is only checked in 25 per cent of electors , at a max .

They really need to put some money and resource into an electoral register project to bring the whole thing up to date. It's complicated, but it's only a simple database in reality.

If there was a proper IT system in place, the registrars in the local authorities would be able to manage it much more effectively.

It needs a reasonable budget to build a secure system and to maintain it - it's a big treasure trove of data for some hacker, so it needs adequate resourcing to make sure it's both user-friendly for citizens and for the registrars, but also to ensure the data is kept safe.

magicbastarder

it's another example of something that should be centralised; what other role do the local authorities have in the voting process? do they manage the hiring of staff to man the polling centres too, for example?

having several dozen different databases surely increases the chances of personation?

delboythedub

My voting address where I have lived for most of my life has been changed very recently to the house next door???

magicbastarder

FWIW the local authority which has 'recreated' my wife's record is Fingal CC.

Brussels Sprout

The electoral register is famously not consistent. That's because there isn't one central register- each local authority has its own register. That's why you sometimes end up with some people getting multiple polling cards to different addresses.

One of the jobs of the new electoral commission is to centralise this data into a single database. That should eliminate duplicates and generally make our turnout % numbers more accurate. I'm not sure when exactly that work is going to be undertaken but I'd imagine they're still using the old system for this upcoming election.

Sam Russell

I think it might be time to introduce a national ID system.

The Pubic Service Card was an attempt to introduce one by stealth that blew up in the Gov's face due to GDPR issues.

For citizens, there is already a credit card sized passport, so that would be a start, but does not include an address. Driving licence is another possible document that could form a basis. Non-citizens would need to be catered for as well.

magicbastarder

for tracking voting, surely the already existing PPSN would be enough? were it not for the totally fractured databases.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088227#Comment_122088227

You may be right, but if so, that raises a whole load of other questions about whether a verbal instruction is sufficient.

AndrewJRenko

What problem would this solve?

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088234#Comment_122088234

Your wife’s friendly local politician , probably a sitting one, familiar with the area. Expecting another vote in their favour.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089377#Comment_122089377

A verbal instruction shouldn’t be sufficient and should never have been accepted by the county council if that was how it came in to them. With the online portal the only instruction should have been the input of the data by the elector or potential elector .
This issue illustrates the need for politicians to be reined in but that will only happen if you have strong officials who aren’t afraid to do the right thing.

magicbastarder

not familiar enough with the area if she hasn't lived there in two decades!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088622#Comment_122088622

What problem would this solve?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090213#Comment_122090213

Certainly the type of issue raised by the OP.

The Gov certainly saw an issue that the Public Service Card was intended to address, but was ruled out because of GDPR issues. The intention was to have a secure verifiable identity, as secure as a passport.

Such ID is considered essential in most EU states.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090457#Comment_122090457

Of course they could have passed a proper law to regulate this, but couldn't be bothered and just proceeded without any legal basis, hence the GDPR problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088005#Comment_122088005

Same happened here ending up with 2 cards, I suspect the register is a complete mess.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090526#Comment_122090526

It was not a question of not being bothered.

I think they did not want to raise the opposition to the idea of a national ID system, wherever they thought that might come from. The PSC was not thought out properly, and it grew legs as different Gov departments tried to hitch themselves on to use it.

It became a horse designed by a committee - a camel.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089398#Comment_122089398

Maybe, though no mention of this on the Fingal website, which is why it might be worth doing a bit of digging to understand what happened.

https://www.fingal.ie/voting-and-elections

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090457#Comment_122090457

It absolutely wouldn't solve the issue raised by the OP. The most likely explanation is that either an official or a politician decided to add back an old name or a few old names to the register, for whatever reason. The elector being in possession of an ID card would have zero impact on this.

GDPR wasn't the barrier to a national ID card. The absence of any policy imperative, engagement or discussion, public consultation and relevant legislation was the barrier to a national ID card.

To me, it's a solution looking for a problem. Public bodies can share data today without a national ID card. More and more public bodies are using mygov.ie platform for authentication.

How would an ID card help?

Sam Russell

Most public bodies are not using Eircode. Even the Property price register does not use which is one area where its use is vital, given the number of properties not having a unique address, plus the given address might be wrong, or given in a way to obfuscate the address. The Eircode is unique to the property - so why is t not used?

The PPS number is unique and should be the foundation to an ID system. Mygov.ie is an online system that is difficult to use - particularly for those who use it infrequently, or who are internet challenged. A credit card sized card is a useful addition to any wallet for an ID system.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091688#Comment_122091688

Property Price Register has the Eircode for most properties.

PPSN isn't quite unique. There are still some women that have their husband's PPS number followed by W. It was never designed to be a unique national ID number.

The 'useful addition' logic is how we ended up pi$$ing away €70 million on buying and then disposing of electronic voting machines.

Unless we have a clear benefit and business case, we shouldn't go near a national ID card. Most people don't carry a wallet these days, with everything on their phone - so what are they going to do with an ID card?

beachhead

Nothing is strange about the register of electors in this country.One of my family went to vote,they came home and told me that I had been crossed off the clerk's list as having voted already.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091976#Comment_122091976

The PPS number is unique. Adding a W makes it unique.

The voting machine was a disgrace where the Gov made a whole succession of mistakes in trying to answer the wrong problem. They tried to get electronic voting instead of electronic counting. They bought obsolete hardware instead of using common reusable screens like iPads. They had no acceptable system of verification or audit trail. They owned the obsolete hardware but not the unique software. All in all, a disaster. If they scanned the ballots and then processed the scans, it would have worked (and saved money). The EU Parliament election ballots will have over 25 candidates and the count will go on for weeks.

The business case would be based on the increase in the public service efficiency.

Your example of the PPR in Stillorgan has 25% no Eircode in an area where there are no non-unique addresses. It should be 0% without Eircode, Imagine how difficult it would be for addresses that are just Townland, Barony, County, with perhaps 20 or more such non-unique addresses.

An ID card would sit next to the driving licence that drivers are required to carry while they drive, and produce to a Gardai on demand.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092541#Comment_122092541

The voting machine was a disgrace where the Gov made a whole succession of mistakes in trying to answer the wrong problem. They tried to get electronic voting instead of electronic counting. They bought obsolete hardware instead of using common reusable screens like iPads. They had no acceptable system of verification or audit trail. They owned the obsolete hardware but not the unique software. All in all, a disaster. If they scanned the ballots and then processed the scans, it would have worked (and saved money). The EU Parliament election ballots will have over 25 candidates and the count will go on for weeks.

It was an absolute disgrace. Given that iPads didn't appear for about eight years after we bought the eVoting machines, they wouldn't have been a realistic option. Running 'common hardware' raises a whole raft of security issues. If the voting machine is going to run on a standard operating system, which gets updated regularly, how can we ensure security of the voting environment when these goalposts keep moving.

Vote counting would indeed have been a better option, given that the paper would be available for audit purposes. There's still a huge question as to whether this WOULD actually save money. It is extremely rare for election counts to go on for more than a few days. Let's revisit this post four or five days after the European elections and see how many counts are still going on.

Your example of the PPR in Stillorgan has 25% no Eircode in an area where there are no non-unique addresses. It should be 0% without Eircode, Imagine how difficult it would be for addresses that are just Townland, Barony, County, with perhaps 20 or more such non-unique addresses.

If you're going to make assessments about the property price register, maybe try looking at a full page, rather than a tiny extract.

Or maybe look at their full data set. But again, what's the problem here? What problem would having 100% Eircodes solve for you?

The business case would be based on the increase in the public service efficiency.

What efficiency improvements would arise from people having to carry a card.

An ID card would sit next to the driving licence that drivers are required to carry while they drive, and produce to a Gardai on demand.

The reality is that lots of drivers don't carry their driving licence. The even more important reality is that not everyone drives.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092541#Comment_122092541

iPads and similar devices all but did not exist at the time of the voting machines.

There were a handful of astoundingly expensive tablets running WinCE or BeIA available at the time.

Sam Russell

Any generic PC Laptop or notebook would have worked for electronic voting, but the very fact of having electronic voting was the wrong solution to a problem we did not have. It was the choice to use unique custom but obsolete hardware with no audit trail or security was also a stupid mistake.

As for the Property Price Register, still a high number of no Eircode shown in 5 out of 25 entries in an area with unique addresses. In areas with addresses being basically a townland, with many properties within that townland, how can anyone identify a particular property of interest?

The DL should be carried by all drivers as it is a legal requirement. Most of Europe carries an ID card always.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093802#Comment_122093802

The problem that you're missing with generic laptops or notebooks is that you then have to security audits of the operating system, and every device driver, and every software component that runs, as well as the voting application. The O/S and drivers will be updating all the time, probably daily, so you're then trying to run security audits on constantly moving targets. If you don't take the software updates, your devices are exposed to known software bugs.

If you're looking at a house in a townland, you're probably going to know that townland well. How many houses in a small townland will have sold in the last six months? Seriously, who really needs Eircodes here.

What problem would carrying an ID card solve?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094304#Comment_122094304

The electronic voting idea was nuts and was dropped from a height because of its lack of any real audit trail and security. It was a solution to a problem that did not exist. Let us leave that parked as a massive waste of money that we did not have.

Eircodes were introduced, at great cost, as a unique address for every residential property in the state. So why is it not used be default in the residential property price register? If I am interested in buying a property that I have the Eircode for, I can identify it on Landdirect.ie and see quite a bit about it. If I then look on the residential price register, I can see a number of properties that have sold over the last decade or so in that townland, but have no idea which price relates the which property so cannot get the information I could get if all were identified by Eircode. It defeats the idea of the register.

An ID card solves how you identify yourself to officialdom, just as a passport does. It allows officialdom an avenue for more efficiency in dealing with individuals as they provide services.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094338#Comment_122094338

Eircodes were introduced with a specific scope, to achieve specific purposes. They have been more than successful. The property price register seems to have Eircodes for most properties. In most other cases, the relevant information will be available from other sources with a little bit of digging. If you do a bit of digging, you'll probably find underlying reason(s) as to why they don't get Eircodes for 100% of properties - possibly because it's not a legislative requirement. The idea that this is some kind of fundamental flaw in public services is a fairly gross exaggeration.

Public service efficiency is doing fairly well without imposing the need for people to carry ID cards, just as physical card usage is going down the toilet. People are able to identify themselves to public bodies without huge issues arising. Can you be in any way specific about what efficiency improvements would result from an ID card scheme, and how these would outweigh the costs of developing and implementing such a scheme?

csirl

There's no political will to clean up the register. Plenty of rural TDs have many supporters who live/work in Dublin, but go "home" to vote.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099648#Comment_122099648

What was the specific purpose of Eircodes if it was not to give every property a unique identifying address?

The Property Price Register works from information provided by Revenue from sales of properties. Revenue use Eircode in much of their work, so why not universally? It would appear to be natural for all Gov departments to use Eircodes by default.

I know of two false addresses used in the PPR (I assume unintentional) that the use of Eircodes would have prevented.

We have lots of people go missing in Ireland that an ID would help correct. An American fugitive was jailed last week for applying for two false Irish passports. At least security on passports has increased in the last decade or so.

Larbre34

This has happened precisely because there was a big clean up done of the register. In some cases, where there is conflicting information, the incorrect entry was optioned by either the system, or the staff.

I know from checking the register myself before the referendums, my name didn't appear and there was no obvious reason for its removal. I applied to be added to the supplementary register and as it turned out I received polling cards for both the main register and the supplementary. Messy, yes, but better to have belt and braces, than no vote at all.

At the end of the day, its the responsibility of each voter to check the register well in advance of a poll, to ensure they are included, and if not, to ensure inclusion on the supplement, so that their vote is provided for.

Too many people leave things to chance and then blame other factors when they cannot vote. You can never assume your name will be unchanged for all time, not when there are so many deaths, moves and maturities in the population going on all the time.

Ensuring your vote is YOUR responsibility.

magicbastarder

You are taking about an issue of being removed from the register; if you're referring to my opening post, this is not what has happened.

Needless to say, it should not be up to my wife to check she's not registered at an address four or five addresses back.

Larbre34

Yes, it should. Thats the whole point.

She checks if she's registered at her current address. If she isn't, she contacts the local Council franchise office and sorts it out with them, irrespective of what the actual error might be. Then she can vote, end of issue.

magicbastarder

I just stated she's not been taken off the register? She's registered at her correct address, and is now registered to vote at a second, old address with no input from her.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100208#Comment_122100208

So the bloody input from her IS to delete it now! The elections aren't for a month yet, so she's got loads of time. Thats the whole point of checking in the first place!

You're asking a question here to which the answer is obvious! The register has 3 million or so records, we know many thousands of them are wrong at any given moment because of the constant change of people's circumstances and because of it being under-resourced for years.

If you are vigilant about your own registration, there won't be a problem!

magicbastarder

Uh, OK.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100560#Comment_122100560

The answer isn’t obvious. No one has explained how a name was added to the Register at an address at which the voter hasn’t lived for 20 years .
Yes voter can request deletion due to duplication, but that is resolution of a problem that has only been created recently and shouldn’t have occurred in the first instance.