Strange issue with register of electors

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089398#Comment_122089398

Maybe, though no mention of this on the Fingal website, which is why it might be worth doing a bit of digging to understand what happened.

https://www.fingal.ie/voting-and-elections

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090457#Comment_122090457

It absolutely wouldn't solve the issue raised by the OP. The most likely explanation is that either an official or a politician decided to add back an old name or a few old names to the register, for whatever reason. The elector being in possession of an ID card would have zero impact on this.

GDPR wasn't the barrier to a national ID card. The absence of any policy imperative, engagement or discussion, public consultation and relevant legislation was the barrier to a national ID card.

To me, it's a solution looking for a problem. Public bodies can share data today without a national ID card. More and more public bodies are using mygov.ie platform for authentication.

How would an ID card help?

Sam Russell

Most public bodies are not using Eircode. Even the Property price register does not use which is one area where its use is vital, given the number of properties not having a unique address, plus the given address might be wrong, or given in a way to obfuscate the address. The Eircode is unique to the property - so why is t not used?

The PPS number is unique and should be the foundation to an ID system. Mygov.ie is an online system that is difficult to use - particularly for those who use it infrequently, or who are internet challenged. A credit card sized card is a useful addition to any wallet for an ID system.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091688#Comment_122091688

Property Price Register has the Eircode for most properties.

PPSN isn't quite unique. There are still some women that have their husband's PPS number followed by W. It was never designed to be a unique national ID number.

The 'useful addition' logic is how we ended up pi$$ing away €70 million on buying and then disposing of electronic voting machines.

Unless we have a clear benefit and business case, we shouldn't go near a national ID card. Most people don't carry a wallet these days, with everything on their phone - so what are they going to do with an ID card?

beachhead

Nothing is strange about the register of electors in this country.One of my family went to vote,they came home and told me that I had been crossed off the clerk's list as having voted already.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091976#Comment_122091976

The PPS number is unique. Adding a W makes it unique.

The voting machine was a disgrace where the Gov made a whole succession of mistakes in trying to answer the wrong problem. They tried to get electronic voting instead of electronic counting. They bought obsolete hardware instead of using common reusable screens like iPads. They had no acceptable system of verification or audit trail. They owned the obsolete hardware but not the unique software. All in all, a disaster. If they scanned the ballots and then processed the scans, it would have worked (and saved money). The EU Parliament election ballots will have over 25 candidates and the count will go on for weeks.

The business case would be based on the increase in the public service efficiency.

Your example of the PPR in Stillorgan has 25% no Eircode in an area where there are no non-unique addresses. It should be 0% without Eircode, Imagine how difficult it would be for addresses that are just Townland, Barony, County, with perhaps 20 or more such non-unique addresses.

An ID card would sit next to the driving licence that drivers are required to carry while they drive, and produce to a Gardai on demand.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092541#Comment_122092541

The voting machine was a disgrace where the Gov made a whole succession of mistakes in trying to answer the wrong problem. They tried to get electronic voting instead of electronic counting. They bought obsolete hardware instead of using common reusable screens like iPads. They had no acceptable system of verification or audit trail. They owned the obsolete hardware but not the unique software. All in all, a disaster. If they scanned the ballots and then processed the scans, it would have worked (and saved money). The EU Parliament election ballots will have over 25 candidates and the count will go on for weeks.

It was an absolute disgrace. Given that iPads didn't appear for about eight years after we bought the eVoting machines, they wouldn't have been a realistic option. Running 'common hardware' raises a whole raft of security issues. If the voting machine is going to run on a standard operating system, which gets updated regularly, how can we ensure security of the voting environment when these goalposts keep moving.

Vote counting would indeed have been a better option, given that the paper would be available for audit purposes. There's still a huge question as to whether this WOULD actually save money. It is extremely rare for election counts to go on for more than a few days. Let's revisit this post four or five days after the European elections and see how many counts are still going on.

Your example of the PPR in Stillorgan has 25% no Eircode in an area where there are no non-unique addresses. It should be 0% without Eircode, Imagine how difficult it would be for addresses that are just Townland, Barony, County, with perhaps 20 or more such non-unique addresses.

If you're going to make assessments about the property price register, maybe try looking at a full page, rather than a tiny extract.

Or maybe look at their full data set. But again, what's the problem here? What problem would having 100% Eircodes solve for you?

The business case would be based on the increase in the public service efficiency.

What efficiency improvements would arise from people having to carry a card.

An ID card would sit next to the driving licence that drivers are required to carry while they drive, and produce to a Gardai on demand.

The reality is that lots of drivers don't carry their driving licence. The even more important reality is that not everyone drives.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092541#Comment_122092541

iPads and similar devices all but did not exist at the time of the voting machines.

There were a handful of astoundingly expensive tablets running WinCE or BeIA available at the time.

Sam Russell

Any generic PC Laptop or notebook would have worked for electronic voting, but the very fact of having electronic voting was the wrong solution to a problem we did not have. It was the choice to use unique custom but obsolete hardware with no audit trail or security was also a stupid mistake.

As for the Property Price Register, still a high number of no Eircode shown in 5 out of 25 entries in an area with unique addresses. In areas with addresses being basically a townland, with many properties within that townland, how can anyone identify a particular property of interest?

The DL should be carried by all drivers as it is a legal requirement. Most of Europe carries an ID card always.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093802#Comment_122093802

The problem that you're missing with generic laptops or notebooks is that you then have to security audits of the operating system, and every device driver, and every software component that runs, as well as the voting application. The O/S and drivers will be updating all the time, probably daily, so you're then trying to run security audits on constantly moving targets. If you don't take the software updates, your devices are exposed to known software bugs.

If you're looking at a house in a townland, you're probably going to know that townland well. How many houses in a small townland will have sold in the last six months? Seriously, who really needs Eircodes here.

What problem would carrying an ID card solve?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094304#Comment_122094304

The electronic voting idea was nuts and was dropped from a height because of its lack of any real audit trail and security. It was a solution to a problem that did not exist. Let us leave that parked as a massive waste of money that we did not have.

Eircodes were introduced, at great cost, as a unique address for every residential property in the state. So why is it not used be default in the residential property price register? If I am interested in buying a property that I have the Eircode for, I can identify it on Landdirect.ie and see quite a bit about it. If I then look on the residential price register, I can see a number of properties that have sold over the last decade or so in that townland, but have no idea which price relates the which property so cannot get the information I could get if all were identified by Eircode. It defeats the idea of the register.

An ID card solves how you identify yourself to officialdom, just as a passport does. It allows officialdom an avenue for more efficiency in dealing with individuals as they provide services.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094338#Comment_122094338

Eircodes were introduced with a specific scope, to achieve specific purposes. They have been more than successful. The property price register seems to have Eircodes for most properties. In most other cases, the relevant information will be available from other sources with a little bit of digging. If you do a bit of digging, you'll probably find underlying reason(s) as to why they don't get Eircodes for 100% of properties - possibly because it's not a legislative requirement. The idea that this is some kind of fundamental flaw in public services is a fairly gross exaggeration.

Public service efficiency is doing fairly well without imposing the need for people to carry ID cards, just as physical card usage is going down the toilet. People are able to identify themselves to public bodies without huge issues arising. Can you be in any way specific about what efficiency improvements would result from an ID card scheme, and how these would outweigh the costs of developing and implementing such a scheme?

csirl

There's no political will to clean up the register. Plenty of rural TDs have many supporters who live/work in Dublin, but go "home" to vote.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099648#Comment_122099648

What was the specific purpose of Eircodes if it was not to give every property a unique identifying address?

The Property Price Register works from information provided by Revenue from sales of properties. Revenue use Eircode in much of their work, so why not universally? It would appear to be natural for all Gov departments to use Eircodes by default.

I know of two false addresses used in the PPR (I assume unintentional) that the use of Eircodes would have prevented.

We have lots of people go missing in Ireland that an ID would help correct. An American fugitive was jailed last week for applying for two false Irish passports. At least security on passports has increased in the last decade or so.

Larbre34

This has happened precisely because there was a big clean up done of the register. In some cases, where there is conflicting information, the incorrect entry was optioned by either the system, or the staff.

I know from checking the register myself before the referendums, my name didn't appear and there was no obvious reason for its removal. I applied to be added to the supplementary register and as it turned out I received polling cards for both the main register and the supplementary. Messy, yes, but better to have belt and braces, than no vote at all.

At the end of the day, its the responsibility of each voter to check the register well in advance of a poll, to ensure they are included, and if not, to ensure inclusion on the supplement, so that their vote is provided for.

Too many people leave things to chance and then blame other factors when they cannot vote. You can never assume your name will be unchanged for all time, not when there are so many deaths, moves and maturities in the population going on all the time.

Ensuring your vote is YOUR responsibility.

magicbastarder

You are taking about an issue of being removed from the register; if you're referring to my opening post, this is not what has happened.

Needless to say, it should not be up to my wife to check she's not registered at an address four or five addresses back.

Larbre34

Yes, it should. Thats the whole point.

She checks if she's registered at her current address. If she isn't, she contacts the local Council franchise office and sorts it out with them, irrespective of what the actual error might be. Then she can vote, end of issue.

magicbastarder

I just stated she's not been taken off the register? She's registered at her correct address, and is now registered to vote at a second, old address with no input from her.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100208#Comment_122100208

So the bloody input from her IS to delete it now! The elections aren't for a month yet, so she's got loads of time. Thats the whole point of checking in the first place!

You're asking a question here to which the answer is obvious! The register has 3 million or so records, we know many thousands of them are wrong at any given moment because of the constant change of people's circumstances and because of it being under-resourced for years.

If you are vigilant about your own registration, there won't be a problem!

magicbastarder

Uh, OK.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100560#Comment_122100560

The answer isn’t obvious. No one has explained how a name was added to the Register at an address at which the voter hasn’t lived for 20 years .
Yes voter can request deletion due to duplication, but that is resolution of a problem that has only been created recently and shouldn’t have occurred in the first instance.

magicbastarder

just to clarify; the only reason my wife found out she was on the register in the wrong place was that she got a jury summons to that address; having received one at the correct address 18 months ago, and now enjoying a 5 year bye from jury duty.

the funny thing is the postman, or someone in an post, corrected the address on the jury summons before it was delivered, to ensure it was actually delivered (or as a signal to the addressee).

i'm kinda bemused by Larbre34's posts suggesting the onus is on her to address this - which she fully plans on doing anyway - because, until the summons arrived, she had no way of checking the register at the old address unless she'd guessed the incorrect address that was used. without the summons, the only way she'd have learned would have been when the polling card was delivered (assuming her parents would then also have mentioned it to her)

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122100761#Comment_122100761

I did explain it, its a system error. A field from a massive and ungainly database system was captured by the programme when it should have been inactive, or archived or whatever.

The bottom line is; if everyone who wants to vote at their current address, checks the register a couple of months before the Poll, and sees that they are, or are not registered at that address, it gives them time to fix it!

Once the local authority has been informed to add you to your current address, they will use their manual checks to purge the out of date record.

For the 10th time, if everyone takes proper responsibility for their own registration, they will have no obstacle to voting on polling day!

magicbastarder

The bottom line is; if everyone who wants to vote at their current address, checks the register a couple of months before the Poll, and sees that they are, or are not registered at that address, it gives them time to fix it!

i'm struggling as to how to explain this? this is not about not being registered at your correct address, it's about being registered at an incorrect one. and they're not mutually exclusive.

you're lecturing a bunch of people about an issue we're not talking about.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102943#Comment_122102943

How often am I supposed to check each of the eleven addresses I've lived at in case I've been added back incorrectly?

Sam Russell

As you are only allowed to vote once no matter how many times you appear on the register, you only need to be registered at your current address. All other entries are not to be used.

So check you are registered at your current address and all will be good.

RetroEncabulator

The electoral register definitely needs to be just outright replaced with a single new system that's properly secure and well managed.

The problem is it's just local authority databases that have had very limited budgets to maintain them.

The history of the PPSN is basically that it was a tax / social welfare ID number. It was never intended originally as an ID number for anything else, so when people were jointly assessed in the 1970s/80s they had effectively on account number with a W added it there was a wife. It was sexist, but it was the 1970 - basically everything was sexist back then and most of the people who designed those systems would now probably be a hundred years old.

Eircode seems to be a solid system and should be used more by state bodies. It's just slow and costly to update databases and it's challenging to figure out which eircode goes with which address in some cases if there was no unique address to start with. You'd have to wait until someone provides an update themselves in some cases.

You can obviously translate 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield to an Eircode, but you can't necessarily figure out that Mrs Murphy, Ballyclabbert, Co Dublin is directly linked to a particular eircode, without her actually confirming that. The data doesn't necessarily exist to do the translation. Some of those databases will take years to be 100% eircode based.

It's fairly clear that they aren't really identifying particular issues with voter fraud here. It is monitored and it does come up as a question in OCSE monitoring but more of an observation than a heavy concern.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091976#Comment_122091976

Ard na Glaise is a newly-built estate.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103400#Comment_122103400

All will be good in terms of you being able to vote, but all is definitely not good in terms of integrity of the register, if people are being added back on to old addresses.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103400#Comment_122103400

Exactly.

It doesn't matter a feck how many other addresses you appear at. Chances are, unless someone you know remains in that house, you wil never hear about it.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103465#Comment_122103465

The solution to the Eircode problem is to eliminate all non-unique addresses. This should have been done as part of the Eircode project.

First, give every road a unique name for each townland. This could be by reference to those living there or by providing them with a multiple choice of names.

Then give every house a number on that road either by reference the distance from the start of it, or some such method. All urban non-unique addresses should be by just providing them with a number for the road they are on.

Revenue collect the Property Tax so they could do the work.