Badly need a new Political Party

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935750#Comment_121935750

A quick Google suggests that the median salary in Ireland is around €45k. The income tax,usc and prsi on this salary is €8,766, or 19.48%. Quite low compared to other countries in Europe and the OECD. If this was higher then maybe we could look at raising the tax bands. However we do not charge much income tax on lower earners in Ireland, and are seen to be quite progressive on that front.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936121#Comment_121936121

"Progressive" is a technical term in the tax world. A tax is "progressive" if someone with higher wealth/earnings pays a greater rate of tax than someone with lower wealth/earnings. A tax is "regressive" if the opposite is the case. And if neither is the case then what you have is a "flat tax"; everybody pays the same rate of tax, regardless of wealth or earnings.

All OECD countries, and I suspect probably very nearly all countries, have a progressive income tax — there's a level of income which is not taxed at all (and if your income is below that level you pay no income tax), and then a further level which is taxed and, usually, one or more further levels again which are taxed at higher and higher rates.

A common objection to Ireland's income tax regime is that it's excessively progressive — that, as people earn more money, they move too fast from paying little or no income tax to paying quite high rates.

It's quite true that a worker on the median wage in Ireland pays a lower rate of tax that a worker on median wage in the majority of OECD countries. But because of the very progressive nature of the Irish tax system, his marginal rate of tax — the tax he will pay on one extra euro of earnings — is one of the highest in the OECD. It's argued that this reduces the incentive for workers to seek promotion, work harder, reskill or take other steps to improve their earnings. (Whether there's much evidence in support of this argument I don't know.)

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926198#Comment_121926198

Wait till you hear about Fine Gael…

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936121#Comment_121936121

During covid when huge number of people became unemployed over night and yet the affect on the tax income was?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936330#Comment_121936330

The same fine gael that increased welfare spending, social spending and spending on a seemingly blank cheque for economic migrants?

Yeah they ain't right wing. Not even centre right anymore.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936366#Comment_121936366

Fiscally conservative but socially liberal exactly like you asked for. All the examples you give are social policies... you simply don't like them.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936407#Comment_121936407

They are not fiscally conservative policies. Right wing/conservative financial policies would include initiatives like lowering social welfare spending, lowering taxes for all, lowering state involvement in business (like HAP payment for instance).

In no world is increased welfare spending ever classed as right wing/conservative.

mariaalice

What exackley is fiscally conservative?

Dose it mean take the money off someone else and not themselves.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936424#Comment_121936424

Yes I said they were social policies and again that you just don't like them.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936426#Comment_121936426

Fiscally conservative means smaller state and smaller tax take and smaller state spend.

This is really basic stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936445#Comment_121936445

As above., those are basic financial policies and not social issues. Pretty basic stuff here. Left wing financial policy is big state interference, big tax take, big welfare spending etc. Right wing financial policy is the opposite of all of that. We're not talking about social issues when talking about finance. And vice versa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936657#Comment_121936657

Except when they are social policies, every policy has a fiscal and social aspect to it, FG enacted these as social policies. You seem to view politics as black or white, left or right, conservative or liberal, social or economical, things are never as simple as that.

You yourself asked for a socially liberal, fiscally conservative party and now are complaining that FG are exactly that. It seems to me you actually want a fully right wing conservative party both socially and fiscally.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936698#Comment_121936698

What part of increased social welfare spending is right wing/fiscally conservative? I think you need to do some reading or something, no offence but that's like political spectrum 101.

It's not black or white, it's an XYZ axis.

There's a great explanation here . Those increased social spending would be in the red or green quadrant. The nordics would be in the green quadrant for instance, with their high taxes and high government expenditure. My own political outlook would be similar to where Thatcher would be in the blue quadrant, but varying sometimes into the purple swiss quadrant depending on the issue at hand.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936726#Comment_121936726

Its not, ill simply say for the last time its socially liberal. You are very myopic in how you view things i have to say. Ill be ignoring any more replies from you as this is pretty tiresome.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936735#Comment_121936735

Ditto.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936654#Comment_121936654

You need to update your definitions. These days it just means a lack of moral backbone, self promotion, lining your own pockets and those of your friends and benefactors, defunding public services and generally doing very little for your fellow citizens and country.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936121#Comment_121936121

Indeed, our effective income tax rates are not high, as you point out, but our marginal income tax rates on relatively low income are crazy high.

The SRCOP has lagged behind wages for years.

Gerard Brady of IBEC made a lovely chart:

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936178#Comment_121936178

Very good post.

Can an income tax syetem be "too progressive"?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936847#Comment_121936847

Yes, it can — just as it can be too regressive.

But you need to think carefully about what "too progressive" (or "too regressive") means — too progressive for what, exactly? You can't answer the question without thinking about what the objects or purpose of your tax system is.

For example, if you have very heavy taxes on something you end up discouraging that thing from happening at all. Very heavy taxes on cigarettes, for example, discourage people from buying cigarettes. Set your cigarette tax high enough, and tax revenue falls — no matter how high the tax rate, you don't get any revenue from the sale that don't happen. So if the purpose of your cigarette tax is to raise revenue, then the cigaratte tax is too high. But if the purpose is to discourage smoking then it's not too high.

(Point to note here: the benefits you might want to get from a tax policy, or the detriments you might want to avoid, are not necessarily fiscal or economic. Not dying prematurely obviously has benefits other that purely financial ones. And in fact tax policy very often targets social benefits.)

So, to say if the income tax is too progressive (or not progressive enough) you have to start by working out why income tax should be progressive at all. What's the justification? What do we hope to acheive?

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936366#Comment_121936366

They did not. Social Welfare spending is increasing because our population is getting older. If you take inflation into account the SW payments today are LOWER than 2010.

Fine Gael continues to cut public services ie closing hospitals and beds, removing mental health services, closing post offices, fire stations, garda stations. They are removing vast sections of our public transport network. There is no Bus Eireann service from Galway to Dublin for years now which is beyond ludicrous.

We have the lowest corporate tax rate in the western world one that even the Republicans in the US view us as a tax haven

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927740#Comment_121927740

Jobs that pay 200k have a clocking off time??

RoboRat

I had this conversation with a couple of mates over drinks and we established that we should start a party. The consensus was that it would be called the NBS Party (No Bullshit). We agreed on the following manifesto...

Social housing should be built by a state-owned company, not bought from contractors, and the houses should never be sold privately. it's a state asset and would pay for itself many times over when you offset HAP payments and what hotels etc are making.

Repeat criminals and antisocial offenders lose their benefits - dole, housing etc. If you're not going to be a part of society, then you lose the privileges that come with society. The notion that not having state support would mean that people stay in criminality has been proven to be wrong.

Sort out the HSE - we have a third-world healthcare system operating at first-world costs. Perhaps see if Michael O'Leary would take it over for a couple of years!

If you come to this country we need to know where you came from. No passport, no entry. Criminal record, no entry. Extremist views, no entry. If you're a genuine refugee with a genuine case then we should accommodate. If you're an economic migrant and if there is work here for your skills, then you get a visa. If you try to sneak in, you are turfed out. Australia has strict immigration policies which should be used as a benchmark.

Invest in cyber security and cyberspace operations. We have a small army/ navy so we should look at alternate methods to protect ourselves (including autonomous drones etc). We could contract the cyber security expertise to other countries and make it profit-generating (like the ESB).

Make the prisons profitable. Give prisoners jobs with transferable skills so that once they leave prison, they have a chance of going straight. If a prisoner opts not to participate, then no chance of early release.

That's what I can remember... as the night went on, the discussion got more abstract and my recollection more hazy!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940011#Comment_121940011

I'm no fan of FG, but I don't think your criticism is fair.

Hospital bed numbers have been steadily increasing, not decreasing.

Where beds have been closed, these have been at smaller, local hospitals that don't have the critical mass to ensure that staff keep up their skills at required levels.

There have been significant improvements in public transport, particularly since the Greens got on board. Extended hours with 24 hour bus services, earlier starts for trains, improved frequency, improved LocalLink services, reduced prices and more. There's no shortage of services between Dublin and Galway, bus or train, for anyone who needs it.

I agree that we should be increasing corporation tax, carefully and modestly.

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940011#Comment_121940011

Our corporation tax rate is a complete outlier,it's the golden goose of our economic model, without it we couldn't have the level of public spending we do , even the likes of SF are not mad enough to kill the goose

We are a highly statist country otherwise

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940785#Comment_121940785

We have one of the lowest public housing investments in the EU. We are in the bottom half of OECD countries for educational per student spending below eastern European countries.

Our infrastructure investment and public transport is easily the worst in Western Europe. We have among the lowest health spending per capita in the EU yet our consultants are the highest paid in the OECD outside places like Luxembourg.

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942212#Comment_121942212

Nonsense, our health spending is significantly above average

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942212#Comment_121942212

Our health spend is not low.

Current h/c exp is 5,689 per person, third highest in the EU (ignore Lux).

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940011#Comment_121940011

Employment in the HSE has risen strongly in recent years.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940347#Comment_121940347

Do me a favour, form that into a manifesto; GoFundMe for deposits and the votes would come flooding in!! Well thought out and good stuff and once again proving my father right that the best ideas come from a few beers!!!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944425#Comment_121944425

...some bullsh1t there, some absolutely thick as fcuk ideas, but a hell of a lot of people would love to see such polices implemented, but you can be damn sure, they wouldnt like the outcomes!