Mart Auctioneer Pay

grass10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121831565#Comment_121831565

Most marts I know have a sellers box and the 2 main reasons are the seller can instruct the auctioneer clearly about the animals for example if heifers are suitable for breeding or if incalf or not or when they are due to calf or what they are incalf to or if a bull is fertile or yearling bullocks that are freshly squeezed where buyers may think they are still bulls

Second reason is the seller can tell the auctioneer what his price expectation is and when the bidding is almost done the auctioneer asks the seller if he wants to put them on the market if he agrees the selling continues until the final bid and both buyer and seller both know the sale is going through at that price a simple and transparent system

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121832358#Comment_121832358

I wasn't saying there isn't a sellers box but generally it's not obvious to buyers if the seller is in there or not. Yes there is sometimes visible interaction between auctioneer and seller but as often as it happens it doesn't happen just as much so not a reliable way to tell. Personally giving a price expectation is not something that I have done or seen done you wouldn't really have a chance in fast moving auctions to be shouting up the information.

You might be able to try push on the auctioneer for a few more bids but it rarely in my experience works or gets a very minimal gain (10 or 20 euro extra which on a busy weekend would not be worth the time spent in the mart - I work full time, self building a house, farming and have young kids - spending hours in at the mart for minimal gains is often just not worth it. You also might be approached after not selling and offered a bit more but I've been rang too when not there by a bidder wondering what would it take to buy the animal.

One thing i would say is we always watch/listen online so we do know what trade is like and can see what value is like. We also weight stock very close to sale day so we know in advance the weight (+/- the always inaccurate mart scales).

As I said we do go in sometimes and if there was a particular reason where being there might be an advantage for giving information or a special sale like 5 star heifers etc then we would attended as it is advantageous compared to run of the mill bullocks or heifers for beef. I am not saying attending is a bad thing* but I don't think there is really much of a downside to selling subject either.

Each to their own really - it can't be argued that its better to have options.

*aside from the no time to have a think on the prices gained especially if you have a few animals coming though one after another with little time to think

DBK1

I think a lot of lads overthink the importance of being in the mart both as a buyer and a seller.

The experienced lads bidding around the ring know the price they will go to and it’s immaterial whether the buyer is in the box or not, they go to their figure and that’s it. A lot of them wouldn’t even turn their head to see who’s bidding against them especially since the online marts started.

It’s the time of year, amount of animals in the mart and factory price that drives the mart trade on. In October when weanling sales are big there will be a bit of messing going on with dealers around the ring but the seller being in the box makes no difference to any of that, it’ll happen either way.

Trying to give the auctioneer all the information on an animal to call out in a standard sale often results in a lower price for the animal. The regular lads bidding there every week get annoyed at the farmer holding up the flow to get his bit of information called out about when he vaccinated them and how many stars they have and how many times a day he talks to them and they don’t bother bidding on the stock then out of spite.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121831886#Comment_121831886

Eh ? There had to be another bidder as I didn’t end up as the owner and the house changed hands . My point is , in this particular instance, the seller didn’t get the benefit of my higher offer. And what would have been a much higher offer ( several bids later ) was lost.

If it happens with houses you can be certain it happens with livestock.

Silverdream

An auctioneer can tacke a bid "off the wall" ie he can bluff the cattle up, most auctioneers do it to speed up the sale of cattle, it is not illegal, and imho its fine as the auctioneer is working for the seller not the buyer. My gripe is when the auctioneer startas working for his buddies, like knocking down cattle to them. The marts charge more than enough to sell the cattle, so it's not too much to ask to get a bit of service from them.

I watched some online autions over in the US, and while that place can be very extreme like in those car sales autions where they have bid spotters, in most cattle marts they have a timer on the sales to ensure cattle get a fair chance in the ring. If you watch some of the sales here you'll see some cattle get less than a minute of sale time. Whats worse is in Ennis mart you see dealers cattle being re-entered 2 and 3 times skipping the queue. I've no objection to them trying them again but let all other pens go through first. Its fair anoying to be in a big sale with a lot no drawn towards the end to see this carry on

cjpm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833424#Comment_121833424

For your last few bids there may not have been another bidder. The underbidder may have dropped out 20k (for example) earlier than you, and the auctioneer could tell you he had another bid on a few occasions to try and get more money out of you.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833774#Comment_121833774

But it was knocked down to that possibly 20000 bid lesser. Bad form all round

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833859#Comment_121833859

There are few worse breeds than auctioneers that sell houses (in my experience).

farmer2018

Local auctioneer around here is know to be a pure gangster, every time a bit of land comes up I give him the odd call asking the price and every time he's says there is a bid on it even if it's up on the market after a few days. They are only fooling themselves imo.

Aravo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121831891#Comment_121831891

That's a classic example of auctioneer selling house to someone he knows.

QA1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833722#Comment_121833722

i am told it’s illegal for an auctioneer to take fake bids

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834804#Comment_121834804

Any auctioneer worth their salt will know what an animal will make as soon as it walks off the scales and will drive the price up to within 50 or 100 or 150 euro of this depending on what weight and quality it is. If they don’t do this everyone in the mart is in for a bloody long day.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833722#Comment_121833722

So in your humble opinion its OK for an auctioneer to puff the price as its an advantage to you, but as a buyer I think its unfair on buyer. It usually happens where an auctioneer has an unknowledgeable buyer. As a buyer I pay auctioneer fees as well so the auctioneer is beholden to both sides. There are marts where I are disinclined to spend too much time trying to buy a few cattle as the auctioneer will spend too long searching for another bid.

Marts have significant staff costs. All are now paid by the hour. They have to get through numbers to make a profit. Even a small mart will have two in the auctioneer stand, one in the ring, 3-4 minimum in the yard and 2-3 in the office as well as the mart manager. That is 10-12 minimum.

Even at the minimum wage, allowing for holiday, bank holidays pay and employer PRSI. That's a minimum cost of 160-200/ hour. Staff will need to be paid for 6 hours minimum per day or they will not stay there. That is 1600 to over 2K/ day before you allow for insurance, electricity, water and fixed costs. At fees of 10/head for buyer and seller it will take the first 80-100+ cattle sold to cover costs. However a good auctioneer will probably be on a 200+/ day and the Mart manager will be on a full-time wage as well as one of the back office staff.

The day that less than 150 cattle are sold the mart is running at a loss.

As I always point out there is only really a margin for one person on any animal. Someone has to lose its unlikely to be the lad nearer the final money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782607#Comment_121782607

I think if it's the lad I am.thinking about he is relatively fair to both sides. He gets through numbers fairly fast its often a case of good cop, bad cop with auctioneers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825922#Comment_121825922

There is limited market for singles. If I get 3-4 in tge box I am picking up singles if they are value. However single cattle carry a risk in that farmers will put cattle that there are issues with in as a single. If cattle are of a similar age a 270kg V a 350k animal can mean an animal with an issue. It may just be a genetically poorer animal.

As well the 350K cattle can probably be slaughtered off grassbefore winter or will be finished earlier in the winter compared to the 270kg animal.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834184#Comment_121834184

Well I've no time for solicitors sort of, never had much auctioneer experience.

Tonynewholland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121833722#Comment_121833722

When the auctioneer makes up bids and are left with the animals they just call up their dealer friends who must buy these expensive animals. They’re rewarded by the hammer falling faster for them for the next few weeks. It’s how it done, not always great for the seller

Castlekeeper

One well used trick to favour the buyer that really annoys me is opening the animals way too low. There's only so much bidding on most commercial stock and it gives the auctioneer great leeway to knock down the animal below tmv.

kk.man

Decent auctioneer in kk was failing to open an offer on an animal. So he made it plain and clear it was his perogative to open at a decent bid and he did...animal sold at decent price afterwards. Morale of story that's the only time they can take a 'fake bid.

I was wondering why a dodgy dealer from up my end goes to Ennis regularly.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835328#Comment_121835328

An auction needs a bid to start the bidding. He can do as @kk.man says or take a bid off the wall however this is not an option especially in co-op marts. As well most owners may not be willing to take an animal home if the auctioneer ends up with the animal.

Reminds me of a story a farmer selling an animal 10+ years ago animal opened and took off and went to 850 euro, auctioneer who was the mart manager turned to tge seller in the box and said. "I am at 850 and I have not received a bid yet he cannot be put on the market"

It's up to every man to sort his own business, if not happy load them up and bring them home but that costs in time and money

RockOrBog

When selling cattle at my nearest mart (45 miles away) I'll always advertise on Dungdeal first and give the lot numbers. It takes some of the power away from the same tanglers around the ring every week. Even if they don't sell online which many of them do, it definitely keeps the bids going.

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836052#Comment_121836052

I have stopped doing that - I now see it as giving the sharks time to circle.

Castlekeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835691#Comment_121835691

Talk about a nothing post, have you been a beneficiary of such sharp practices by any chance?

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835691#Comment_121835691

A good auctioneer now’s his customer and seller and cattle simple as that, he knows how far most lads will go on an animal if it is their type of animal and is the buyer spending his money or someone else’s money, also knows what type of cattle everyone is after from the bargain basement fella to the show type man to the shipper to the factory man. The day of the auctioneer working for the dealer is gone with the camera on line, there is not to many jobbers buying cattle in one mart and hauling to another mart to try turn a few bob due to costs involved, worked in two marts as a young fella and a dealer from the west use to bring 50 to 60 hex or poly heifers a week to the two marts and didn’t pay commission due to numbers and business he was bringing, the 4 movement and bonus has cut out a lot of that.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121838555#Comment_121838555

I buy virtually all my cattle online. However you have to under stand the way a mart works, it cannot spend 2-3 minutes on every lot

Castlekeeper

Another patronising comment!

I'll repeat the point, a certain type of stock enters the ring, and the auctioneer accepts opening bids of a fraction of what previous similar lots made that session, thus making it very difficult for the lot to reach a fair value, "you have to under stand the way a mart works, it cannot spend 2-3 minutes on every lot".

DBK1

Isn’t it the same story though for every animal sold in every mart in the country?

The seller thinks the auctioneer is after knocking down the animal to one of his dealer friends far too cheap and the buyer thinks the auctioneer must have been taking phantom bids because there’s no way the animal should have been so dear.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840541#Comment_121840541

Look I buy online, at the value end of the market. I finish cattle over 10-18 months depending on the animal. I bid to what I think the animal is worth if I get it cheaper I have a higher margin. Because I buy online I will but a few duds that will make my margin.

Last year Kilmallock mart tried to open cattle on line by putting up a strong opening price they only opened once in ten times so they gave it up.

The auctioneers cannot decide an opening price generally, I have seen the Northern lad do it a few time for quality stock, I seen him tell dealers or buyers 'she will make it anyway''.

On the other hand I have seen him open out of specification cattle at a low value. Last year he tried to open a heifer @3k and tell the buyers ( one in particular who bought her) she was going to make, she opened at about 1800 and made nearly 3500 euro. He said the buyer you about his looking to open her at the 3k ''you would never know''

As in if he opened the heifer@3k nobody else might have put a bid on her. Most cattle that do not majke there value is because they are singles or out of specification, maybe they shohave been castrated, or are not dehorned, no guarantee with a heifer or a cull cow, under weight for age, have a full belly's.

It just might be that 2-3 buyers are missing, gone for there lunch or to take a phone call and while the cat is out the mice will play to an extent if there is not farmer buyers.

Any one can see what what happens in marts by watching LSL.

patsy_mccabe

I honestly think that the auctioneer should be more on the side of the seller. Ideally you would think that he should be equally fair to both buyer and seller, but in practice it is fairer if he tries his best to get every last bid. Buyers battle away then till the last man is standing.

Once famers get a sniff that there is something dodgy with an auctioneer, they simple go elsewhere to sell.

Auctioneers should keep their distance from the dealers too. I suppose it is inevitable that will get to know them as they deal with them everyday, but to the farmers around the ring, it looks very suspicious if they are having banter with them during the sale.

Castlekeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840874#Comment_121840874

I'd say opening at less than half a fair value is taking the piss, running down the click so to speak. Some auctioneers have no such tendencies.

Anto_Meath

The new lad in Carnaross tries to open them as near to the value as he can.. he said its to save him work looking for bids to get them up. He is from Ardee but think he worked in Gortlea. He has a job to do to fill Jim Fox's roll as Jim was very fair to everyone. In fairness to Larry who sells the calves & suckler cows he takes no messing either. Seen him making a show of a big shipper one day who was trying to block everyone around the ring.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840977#Comment_121840977

That's right. The auctioneer is supposed to be trying their best for the seller. They have fiduciary responsibilities to the seller.