National Football League 2024
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"and the GAA needs them" "The GAAs top table isn't the same without them"
I had these two statements in mind when I said that Meath are nothing special. I should have phrased it There is nothing special about Meath. They got 7 All Irelands, but that does not put them in territory much ahead of Cavan and Down with 5 and Tyrone with 4. Their absence from the top table has not caused any trouble to the GAA. No more than the absence of Mayo, Donegal, Armagh, Derry, Roscommon, Monaghan, Offaly, Kildare and Cork in varying degrees. And Galway who have not won it for over 20 years.
We are in a National League thread. They are 5th on that Roll of Honour with 7. But the 4 above them have a total of 58. Last success (Division 1) 1993/4, last final contested 1999/2000.
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It's a bit like Offaly hurling who spent ages blaming everyone else when they started to fall through the divisions. Took them a long time to look inward and stop blaming others which is what's needed to come back.
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Its Meaths consistency. Meath along with kerry Dublin Cork Galway are the successful counties decade after decade up to early 2000. Down are successful in early 90s and 60s, Cavan up to 1950s and Tytone are successful after 2000. Meath are successful in 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s and into 2000s.
Regards league titles Meath won Leagues in 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s. That very consistent. Yes kerry Cork Dublin Mayo have more leagues, but Meath are in top 5 with 7 league titles and than there is huge gap between top 6 and the rest, Derry have 6, than there is huge drop off. Down and Galway have 4 and than another drop off . Very few teams have many leagues titles. These great gas counties like Roscommon Donegal Monaghan Cavan Armagh Offaly longford have won 1 league title each. Tyrone laois have won 2 league titles div 1. While kildare have never won league title div 1. Wexford Wicklow louth Carlow Tippearay Clare Waterford Limerick Antrim have never won league div 1 title.
Donegal won their league in 2007, Armagh won their league title in 2005, Roscommon won their league title in 1979, Longford won their league title in 1966, Offaly won their league in 1998, Cavan won their league in 1948, Tytone won 2002 & 2003, laois won league in 1925 & 1986, Meath won their leagues in 1933, 1946, 1951, 1975, 1988, 1990, 1994. My point is consistency of Meath sucesss, only Dublin kerry Galway Cork have had that consistency of sucesss from. 1930s all the way up to 2000s up 2010.
Let's look at counties you mentioned. Great gas counties like Tyrone Cavan Down. Counties with wonderful traditions and great sucess.
The difference is the consistency success. Tyrone didn't win All Ireland til 120 years after gaa was founded. Meath beat kerry in All Ireland final 50 years before Tyrone did.
Let's compare Tyrone
In 1930s Meath are div 1 team challenging for Sam Tyrone are div 3 team
In 1940s 1950s 1960s Meath win All Ireland in evey decade are successful with provicial titles league titles and All Ireland. Tyrone are div 3 div 4 team. Tyeone didn't win their first Ulster til 1956, 60 years after Meath won their first. Up 1984 Tyrone had won 3 Ulster titles in 1956, 1957, 1973. In the same period Meath had won 12 leinster titles in 1895 1939 1940 1947 1949 1951 1952 1954 1964 1966 1967 1970.
In 1970s Meath are in top 5 or 6 teams in country reached All Ireland final Tryone are div 3 div 4.
In 1980 and 1990s Meath win All Ireland league provicial title's Meath become the top gaelic football county for at least 16 years. Tyrone reach 2 All Ireland finals in 80s 90s but Meath reach 7. Meath win their 7th league title in 1994. Tyrone have yet to win their first. Tyrone in 80s had excellent team and another excellent team in 90s. But Meath are stronger. Its only after 2000 Tyrone go ahead Meath.
In 00s and 10s Tyrone are ahead of Meath with 4 All Ireland to Meaths 0. Tyrone have one of the greatest team ever to come from Ulster.
Finally Tyrone defeated Meath in championship for first time ever in 2013.
But as you can see in last 100 years 80% that time Meath were successful than Tyeone. Meath were more successful than Tyrone in 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s, Tyrone were more successful than Meath in 00s and 10s.
Meath won their first All All Ireland 50 years before Tyrone. Meath won their first league title 60 years before Tyrone. If you included national titles Meath have won 14 ( 7 All Ireland & 7 leagues) and Tyone have won 6 national titles ( 4 All Ireland and 2 leagues) .
Meath have being consistently more successful than Tyrone for decade. Tyrone sucessis very recent beginning 20 years ago. Meaths sucesss began 90 years. That's not taking away from Tyrone. Tyrone are great gaa county and modern say superpower. Tyrone achievements in last 20 years have being outstanding.
You mention Down. Another great gaa county. Down sucess is confined to 60s early 90s. Down had great team in 1960s and early 90s. Down are one of our great gaa counties, true trailblazers. But there sucesss is in 60zs and early 90s. Down struggled in 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s 00s 10s. In those decades 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s 00s Meath were more successful than Down. Down haven't won Ulster title in 30 years.
Cavan is another great gaa county with pheonomal sucess up to 1952. A true early aristocrat of the game. But since 50s Meath have being much stronger Cavan in every decade. Cavan haven't won All ireland since 1951 Meath have won 6. Cavan haven't won league title since 1940s, their only league. Meath won Leagues in 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s 90s. Cavan have won 2 provicial titles in last 50 years Meath have won 10 provicial titles in last 50 years. Cavan haven't won championship game in All Ireland championship in Croke Park in 60 years. Meath in that period outside leinster championship Meath have have won 19 championship games in All Ireland q final semi finals and final compared to Cavan 0 wins in last 60 years.
Post edited by Sonny678 on1 -
Meath is blaming no one for drop off after 2010. Meath are very consistent. From 1930s to early 2000s Meath are div 1 team. In last 15 years Meath are div 2 team. Meath have returned to the pack. Same way Cork have. Cork and Meaths reasons for decline are multi layered and many. So basically your saying all Meath have to do is to look inward than sucess follow. That's sounds really easy, very simple. So all the counties in Ireland in div 2 div 3 div 4 with great football traditions like Meath Cork Down kildare Offaly laois Cavan, all they have to do is just look inward and sucess will follow. Every sporting team just look inward sucess will follow. So if Faroe Islands Malta Andorra Cyprus all look inward in soccer sucesss will follow. If Carlow hurlers Mayo hurlers Donegal hurlers look inward sucess will follow.
Building sucess is not that easy. It takes many many many factors for county to be sucessful. Looking inward helps but it guarantees nothing. I would say Meath have looking inward for at least 10 years and working at their structures and there are signs at underage sucess has happened. But it guaranteed nothing. Why county is successful in gaa is down to many complicated reasons. And its just not click your fingers look inward and titles follow. Most counties are looking inward working hard on ground, buy there is no guarantee of sucess.
You used Offaly has county that has got its act together, looking inward, working on their structures. All true. You say Offaly, are looking inward. Where is the sucess. Offaly are in div 3 in football currently and have being in div 3 div 4 for most of the last 20 years. Offaly footballers haven't won leinster title in 26 years and reached 1 leinster final in 26 years. In hurling Offaly don't play in All Ireland championship any more. Offaly hurlers havent won leinster title in 29 years. It about 20 years since Offaly were competiting v top teams in hurling and 40 years since they were consistently sucesss in football. Just this weekend in hurling Waterford beat Offaly by 12 pts at weekend. In football Offaly are currently bottom of div 3 with no wins this year. Offaly are great gaa county with great tradition of sucess. Their sucess in hurling and football in 70s 80s 90s was remarkable. Offaly are working hard on the ground, there is some underage sucess. But Offaly are far off the glory days of 70s 80s 90s winning leinster titles and All Ireland. They looked inward but sucess has not followed. Offaly footballers won 10 leinster titles from 1960 to 2000. Offaly haven't won leinster since 1997. Offaly hurlers won 9 leinster titles from 1980 to 1995. Offaly haven't won leinster hurling title in 29 years. Offaly are making strides great work on ground. But sucess hasn't happened yet. Because sucess is not guaranteed and sucess is very hard to obtain in gaa. If it was easy everyone would be successful.
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It's very common across forums for Meath fans to cry, btch and moan about how the world and GAA is against them. It's insufferable this idea that the GAA owes certain counties.
A fair amount of the reason why boards had to have a special thread about Dublin is down to Meath fans.
Most of the above post is a rant that willingly misreads what I said and what I was commenting on. For instance many of those soccer teams did put in the hard work and had relative success (especially compared to Ireland and their "do fuk all and hope for success" approach and a section of our insufferable cry baby fans)
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If a team goes in decline in any sport there will be discussions. That's life. You are on about Meath complaing about Dubs and their finances. Its not just Meath that have discussed that. Every gaa county in thd country especially leinster has discussed Dubs and what has happened. To say Meath are the only one is unfair and untrue. It's the most discussed topic in gaa nationwide for the last decade. Look this thread about Dublin on boards ie and you will see contributors from every county in Ireland making comments. To say its just Meath is not fair also its not reality. The whole gaa community nationwide have being discussing it for ten years. Every county in Ireland gaa members from Ballyshannon to Ballybunion from Arklow to Castlebar people have talked discussed and many moaned about Dubs. To say its all down to Meath, its just untrue. I have feeling your a Dub, that explain your comments which are not based on reality. Dubs their sucess their finances etc is the most discussed gaa topic by gaa members in every county in Ireland for this generation. And especially every single county in leinster you will find tens and tens of thousands of leinster people outside Meath discussing & many criticising Dubs. I look at media I see Ger Gilroy on Off the Ball a kildare man always criticising Dubs and their finances. I see Ewan Mckenna another journalist a kildare man criticising Dubs finances. The person who drove debate in recent year was ex Westmeath footballer John Connellon. If you think its just Meath just talking about Dublin you are very wrong. It is Number one hot topic for gaa people for this generation nationwide.
Again every team work hard and sucess will follow. Its the millionaire attitude, you work hard you become rich. That's not life that's not reality. Look at soccer again, look at China wealthy, biggest population in world, working hard at soccer, yet why are they minnows in soccer. Look at India huge population why do they struggle so bad at soccer. Look at Canada huge populations huge wealth great sporting country yet they struggle at soccer, are soccer minnow. Why did England for decades fail in tournament in soccer. England has best league in world, invented soccer, huge population, huge finance, great structures yet England were failures for decades in world cup and European championships. England compared to Germany Italy had terrible record. Everything is in their favour yet England have massively underachieved in last 60 years. Because its complicated hard and difficult. Some team have barriers and obstacles that are humanly impossible to pass to be succesful. So just Stop moaning look inward and sucess will follow. That's all the coach's all the managers and all teams in world have to do and sucesss will follow. Its not as simple as that.
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I would disagree. If you take Meath and Offaly away Dublin could easily have won the last 40 to 50 leinster titles in a row. You might laugh at that. But from 1958 to 1997 every leinster title was won by Meath Offaly Dublin. Exception was longford in 1968. For 40 years Meath Offaly Dublin won basically every leinster title but 1 from 1958 to 1997. Dublin won 19 leinster Meath won 10 leinster and Offaly won 10 leinster in 40 year period from 1958 to 1997. If Dwyer does not got back to kildare in 1997 and Sean Boylan decides to leave Meath in 1985 when he decided walkaway and only player convinced. No Sean Boylan no Mick Dwyer Dublin would have won last 40 leinster titles in a row. The last 40 leinster titles were won by Dublin managers Sean Boylan and Mick Dwyer. The two exceptions were Paudi O Se with Westmeath in 04 and Eamon O Brien with Meath.
If Offaly and Meath didn't appear with great teams in 60s early 70s. Dublin would have won 10 in a row. If Offaly and Meath didn't have great teams in 70s 80s early 90s Dublin would have easily won every leinster title from 1974 to 1996. Dublin would have won 22 leinster titles in a row. You take Meath Offaly Dublin would be winning 15 in row leinsters. Between 1984 and 1996. Meath and Dublin played in 9 leinster finals in 12 years. No Meath no Sean Boylan Dublin are winning every leinster title from 1984 to 1996 easy. Meaths decline and Offaly decline to lesser extent has had huge impact in leinster. If wasn't for Meath Dublin would have being 12 13 leinster titles in a row in 80s and 90s. Dublin would have being winning 8 or 9 or 10 in row in 40s 50s 60s.
Meath v Dublin rivalry was the biggest rivalry in Irish sport for 20 years. Captured attention nation. 1991 games changed face of gaa. First ever game played on Saturday first game televisied live that wasn't All Ireland semis r final or Railway cup. Many believed 4 games in 1991 Mesth v Dublin saved gaa with the explosion of soccer popularity after Italia 1990. Meath v Dublin gaa rivalry had huge impact on gaa and heralded in modern age of gaa and was biggest rivalry in Irish sport. I think most gaa people would say loss of Meath v Dublin rivalry is huge loss to gaa. Biggest rivalry in ladies football at moment is Meath v Dublin. Meath played Dublin 2 weeks ago and there was crowd at the match that was bigger than all the other ladies league playing that weekend combined. This according to journalist on radio last week. Meath v Dublin rivalry in ladies football is heralding in a new modern era in ladies football just like Meath v Dublin mens rivalry of 70s 80s 90s heralded in modern era in gaa.
I think gaa does need strong Meath in leinster.As I said if wasn't for Meath Dublin coulf easily have won every leinster title from 1984 to 2024. If no Meath great team in late 80s or 90s, Micko doesnt come to kildare he doesn't go to laois, I doubt Paudi goes to Westmeath. Seam Boylan walkaway in 1985 Dwyer doesn't go to kildare laois, Dublin could easily have won the last 40 leinster titles in a row at top of the 7 they won in 70s.
Post edited by Sonny678 on1 -
Monaghan, Offaly and Roscommon have only the population between them that Meath or Kildare have. The others go up and down, but their up tends to be more than Kildare or the modern Meath, e.g. Derry. Mayo were only one kick of the ball away from an AI on several occasions. Galway probably should do better, and Cork certainly should. The GAA needs big population centres to pull their weight.
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Cavan and Meath different types of success.
From what I know, a large part of the success of Cavan was that they had a pocket of 'excellence' around Cornafean and Mullahoran, and used that as a platform for the county team. Added to the fact that what is now the most competitive provincial championship was then maybe the least competitive. Cavan won ulster around 25 times in the 1930s 1940s and 1950s, and most of those were easy wins.
Meath has had a different type of success, more spread out over a longer period.
However - being honest at this point none of that matters a feck as regards performance of county teams. Both are sufferring big style.
In Meath's case, its hard to put a finger on it but two major issues would have to be (i) that Meath cant compete at all with Dublin in Leinster. That just has to be accepted, and move on. Success for meath has to be redefined. (ii) the club championship in Meath seems weak. Its 20 years since a Meath club made a Leinster final. My guess is that the best Meath clubs would not be in the top 8 in Dublin.
While the county team cant be transformed into Dublin, and wont be - for me, there is no reason why Ratoath shouldnt be as strongs as Ballymun Kickhams or Kilmacud. This is an area that would need to change for Meath to press on. Meath needs one or two clubs that will contend for club all irelands.
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Dublin's All-Ireland tally is heavily skewed as they won a huge amount before the 40's, so early clubs represented the counties at one point. Then another run with this current team, where huge money and advantages skewed things.
Since Meath won their first All-Ireland till last in 99, Meath have won something like 7 All Irelands to possibly 8 by Dublin, nothing in it in Leinster either. The only counties who won more over this period would be Kerry and possibly Galway, haven't checked, but remembering reading it along time ago.
Kerry for most of Gaelic footballs history have always been a level ahead, and in the second tier you'd have Cork, Dublin, Galway and Meath traditionally. The rest of the counties would be in tiers below that.
And in those eras where Meath were successful, you could argue they were the toughest and hardest to beat of all. Meath have had 3 seperate eras of very special teams
There is a void that can be felt at Gaelic footballs top table, Meath badly missed
Post edited by The Golden Miller on0 -
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What do you think is the problem with Meath football. Would I be right in saying something changed when O'Dowd came in and dropped alot of the experienced lads, and the psychological damage it has done to the younger players after the hammerings they got when they were brought in?
Not alot of Meath people agree with this, just say the training needs to be different, or need to be playing top teams more regularly etc. They got to Div 1, then everyone saying they need the opposite, they need to be in Div 2 to get wins and more confidence etc etc, like the Tailteann cup.
Aside from players, tactics, systems, training or ability, I think it's clear at this stage that there is something deeper that's the problem.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but something definitely changed in them over O'Dowd's reign. From 02- 12, they were no great shakes, but always retained the ability to rise up on any given occasion and beat anyone. There was still heart and fight in them.
They look lost since 2013, devoid of any fight, confidence, spirit, belief and heart, no matter who the manager is, who the players are or what the tactics are. The aura they give off is fearful and outright scared at times. There is something broken in their psyche, I don't know how else to phrase it
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I feel like you're over estimating Meath in the grand scheme of things here; the Sean Boylan era accounts for almost half of Meath's silverware - I'd argue that it was him specifically that created those great teams and when he left, Meath reverted closer to their mean. Obviously Dublin's dominance means they haven't picked up as many Leinster titles as you'd have expected since he's left though
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Nah they've been pretty consistent since their first all Ireland win until the last decade or two, not always the best, but as competitive as anyone. Not many teams who won more.
What Im really getting at is I suppose, even at their worst over the years, their players would run through walls for the cause, you had to earn your win no matter how poor they were.
They've always prided themselves on being tough, they've probably produced the toughest and most resilient teams, their spirit and never say die attitude. Even when they were poor, this inbuilt belief often lifted them to greater heights. No other team carried that spirit and fight, never say die attitude, that the great Meath teams had.
As a Meath fan I wouldn't be worried if I knew the players were just bad, but that's not the case. The most worrying thing for Meath fans is they seem completely devoid of any of the old Meath attributes, fight, heart and spirit, the willingness to die on the field, even when all is lost. That's what defined Meath for decades, and it's what everyone feared, but it seems now every scrap of that is dead.
You can accept losing when your just not good enough and gave it your all, but what Meath player could stand up and say they left everything on the field in the last ten years in any game?
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I think that toughness and resilience are the traits specifically of the Boylan teams though - I'm not old enough to remember any further back than that so I'm open to correction on their previous history. Looking at the roll of honour, they only won 1 Leinster between 67 and 86 so there was a long fallow period before Boylan arrived.
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That's not correct Meath didn't return closer to their mean after Boylan left. Because the last decade was Meaths worst decade in 100 years, the last decade was Meath worst since 1920s. Even though in leinster championship Meath were still 2nd best team by a mile reaching 6 leinster finals since 2010 compared to kildares 1, Westmeath 2, louth and Wexford 1 leinster final appearance. But last decade was Meath worst in that, the last decade 2010 to 2019 is the first decade Meath didn't reach All Ireland finals since 1920s. Meath reached All Ireland finals in 30s,40s,50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, but failed to in last decade. In all those decades Meath had teams good enough to win Sam and in many cases did. Only kerry Dublin Cork Galway were as consistent as Meath in those 90 years. Meath had great sucess great teams great players great manager/ trainers ( like Fr Tully Peter McDermott) before Sean Boylan. Yes there was fallow period of over 15 years before Boylan came, but even in that period Meath had one of the best teams in country in mid 1970s, and were the only team to beat Great Kerry great Dublin team in national final in 70s. As Meath pushed Heffernan teams all the way in the 70s. Dublin at time were very lucky to beat Meath in 70s. In 74 Meath could have beaten Dublin, in 75 Meath did beat Dublin, In 76 Meath should have beaten Dublin and in 77 when Dublin won 2 in a row hammering Armagh in final anf beating Kerry in semis. In that year 1977 How Meath didn't beat Dublin when they dominated second half, is a mystery.
Meath before Boylan had same number of All Ireland Mayo have now. 3 or 4 All Ireland in gaelic football is a strong football county. People look at kilkenny, Dublin, Cluxton Shefflin All Ireland and think 4 or 5 or 6 are not many but in gaelic football terms. Teams with 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 All Irelands are near top of gaa table.
Again Meath had great tradition before Sean. Difference was Sean turned Meath into number 1 county in Ireland for 16 years. In the past Meath were never number one county nationwide for decade but they had best teams in leinster for many eras and one of the best teams in the country at different times all before Sean. Meath had strong teams in 1930s and 1970s and Meath had great teams in 1940s 1950s 1960s. Meath Teams that beat all time great teams. Meath stopped Cavan from 3 in a row in 49, Meath stopped kerry from winning 4 in a row in 54 and Meath hammered great Down team of the 60s in All Ireland semi final in 60s. Meath were beating great team long before Sean.
In 30s Meath had very good team, wining leinster and div 1 league title and were very unlucky to lose All Ireland final v kerry by 2 pts in 1939. In 40s and 50s for large part Meath were best team in leinster and one of the best country. Meath had great battles with great louth team, great Cavan team and brilliant Dublin team in 40s 50s. 40 years before Sean started to beat Dublin, Meath were beating Dublin. Meath Dublin rivalry begins in 1940s. When you have first great Meath team and you have Dublin players playing for Dublin. Up to 1940s kerry men Mayo men Meath men were winning All Irelands for Dublin. Dublin were an all star 32 county representative team. That changes in 1940s. And Meath v Dublin rivalry begins. Meath had great succes v Dubs in 80s 90s this was not new. As Meath were successful v Dubs in 40s 50s 60s. Meath beat Dublin 4 times in 5 years in championship in late 90s early 00s. Meath beat Dubs 4 times in 5 years in championship in late 40s early 50s. Meath had great team in late 40s winning an All Ireland in 49 and won many leinsters. In 50s another great Meath team appeared winning Sam in 1954. This Meath had one of greatest full back lines ever to play the game with Two O" Briens and Kevin McConnell and King of full backs the full back of the team of the Century, Paddy O Brien.
Meath again appeared with a great team in 60s and became best team in leinster in 60s and one of the best teams of the era nationwide. Everything Meath did under Sean in 80s and 90s happened in 40s 50s 60s. Meath had great success under Sean v Dubs, Meath had success v Dubs in 40s 50s 60s. Meath beat Dublin when they were reigning All Ireland champions in 1996 under Sean. Meath did the very same thing in 1964 when.they defeated Dublin when they were reigning All Ireland champions. Meath before Sean had great teams with huge sucesss, but also great players like McGuinness great Meath full back of 30s, and other greats before Sean were Peter McDermott, Paddy Brien, Mick O Brien, Kevin McConnell, Paddy Meegan, Jack Quinn, Bertie Cunningham, Pat Reynold snr, Pat "Red" Collier, Mattie kerrigan, Noel Curran, Ken Rennicks, Joe Casseells and many others.
Sean's sucess was mirrored by one of the great gaa trainers of all time. Fr Paddy Tully. Before managers, teams were managed by gaa trainers. There was 3 or 4 great gaa trainers. They include Dr Eamon Sullivan of kerry who led kerry to 8 All Ireland and John bull Dunne who led Galway to 3 in a row in 60s. And Fr Tully who led Meath to many All Irelands also. When you said Meath returned to their mean after Sean this is wrong because Fr Tully Meath great trainer of 40s 50s 60s had similar amount sucess to Sean.
Two great figures of kerry Football are Mick Dwyer and Eamon Sullivan both won 8 All Ireland as manager and trainer. Sean and Fr Tully had similar sucess. Sean won 4 All Ireland, Fr Tully won 3 All Irelands with Meath, Sean managed Meath to 8 leinster titles, Fr Tully trained Meath to 7 leinster titles. They had similar amount of sucess
From 1986 Sean Boylan led Meath to 4 All Ireland senior titles, 8 leinster senior titles and 3 national league div 1 titles.
From 1940s onwards Fr Tully led Meath to 3 All Ireland senior titles, 7 leinster senior titles & 3 national league div 1 titles & 1 All Ireland minor title & 1 leinster minor title.
( Just side note Fr Tully Co managed Co trained Meath in 60s with Peter McDermott, one of Meath great players, and one great gaa trainers of the 60s. Peter McDermott was one of the great trainers of his generation and with Fr Tully in 60s led Meath to 4 leinster titles and 3 All Ireland finals winning 1 in 1967, he also was the man who really invented international rules. Without Peter McDermott there would be no international rules as he organised Meath tour of Australia in 1968) .
Sean Boylan in 1980s 1990s copied the sucess Fr Tully had with Meath in 1940s 1950s 1960s. Meath success under Sean was very similar sucess Meath had under Fr Tully in 40s 50s 60s. So in conclusion I don't think it's fair to say it was all down to Sean and Meath returned closer to their mean when he left. That is factually untrue. Meath and Sean Boylan mirrored sucess the great Meath team of 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s had. Sean was a genius and one greatest manager ever but Meath had great tradition of sucess before Sean. And some greatest players of all time played for Meath in those years from 1930s to 1970s. Meath had 2 greatest gaa trainers of all time in that period also eg Fr Tully and Peter McDermott. Where Meath are now and have being for last few years or so is the lowest Meath have being in 100 years since 1920s. The last decade was Meaths worst since the foundation of the state in 1922. Meath are at their lowest level since 1920s. At that time Meath were very disorganised and actually entered junior championship at times. In 1920s some of Meaths best players played for Dublin, Meath were not serious senior football county in 20s. It wasn't til 1929 Meath starter to get their act together. Before that there was years Meath didn't enter leinster championship. After 1929 1930, Meath players stopped playing for Dublin and starting playing for Meath and first strong Meath team appeared in 1930s.
Just another point to put all sucess down Sean, yes he was important but look at great players he had like Colm O Rourke Mick Lyons Robbie O Malley Martin O Connell Joe Cassells Gerry McEntee Bernard Flynn Brian Stafford Darren Fay Mark Reilly John McDermott Evan Kelly Graham Geraghty Ollie Murphy Trevor Giles. Meath produced great teams and great players under Sean and Meath produced great teams great players and great trainers before Sean.
Post edited by Sonny678 on0 -
No mention of Banty in any of these stories about Meath's mental anguish. His tenure seems to coincide with the start of their decline following their Leinster win in 2010. That year they finished mid table in Division 2 with 4 wins. Banty arrived after that in November, after the clubs gave O'Brien the heave.
They managed to survive in Division 2 in 2011 with 1 win and 1 draw. But in 2012 even though they got 2 wins they were relegated to Division 3. Ironically along with Monaghan who also had 4 points. He did bring Meath to the Leinster final in 2012 where they only lost by a goal to Dublin. But Laois defeated them in the qualifiers a week later, and Banty departed. He had narrowly avoided the sack before that in a close vote by the clubs. There seems to be some history in Meath of the clubs trying to get rid of the county team managers.
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You asked what I think the problem is with Meath. There are many issues with Meath. I am going to focus on two areas. Other areas I will mention are the lack of underage sucesss is an issue. Meath won no underage titles from 2008 to 2016. This meant Andy had little talent to work with. Meath have started to produce underage recently with 4 leinster minor titles and All Ireland minor title won recently. So Colm has talent to work with the problem is they are too young and inexperienced. Meath have the youngest team in country with only 2 experienced players in late 20s early 30s even mid 20s on team, they are Jones and keoghan. Meath do have talent and potential but it will take 2 to 3 years at least before they are ready to play Armagh or Derry. It took Mick Dwyer 5 years to suceed with kildare and Sean Boylan 4 years to suceed with Meath. Its takes 4 or 5 years to build successful team in leinster in shadow of the Dubs. Another reason Meath are so up and down is Meath are missing 8 players who played in Tailtean cup Final, Meath don't have experience or depth in their panel to deal with so many players missing. Meath have 15 players playing Sigerson while Armagh and Fermanagh had 2. It has meant Meath Colm O'Rourke hasn't being able to have all his players available to train or coach not once this year. With 12 to 15 players missing from every Meath training session.
Also for years Meath were producing small players around centre field. Meath were not producing any quality midfielders for year. They had to turn Menton and McEntee half backs into midfielders. However there seems to conveyor belt of young 6ft 4 6 ft 5 Atletic midfielders coming through. Like Conor Gray who at 19 last year was outstanding and looks a serious midfielder. Meaths have Ronan Jones and have young midfielders on panel like Conor Gray Jack Flynn Daithi McGowan Cian McBride Jack Kinlough. Its long time since Meath had such power Atleticism at midfield. And Conor Nash a huge talent says he will back in coming years to play for Meath from Auzzie rules. Meaths midfield issues has being problem since John McDermtt retired.
I would disagree it physiological, the issue with Meath . I will focus on two areas instead. You mention toughness never say spirit is no longer there. In past Meath did have never say die spirit. But that they were tough is cliche. And wasn't reason they successful. All teams were tough back in 70s 80s. Meath were no tougher than any team back than. Actually in 80s Laois had tougher than Meath, ( Remeber battle of Aughrim laois v Wicklow), and Armagh had tougher team than Meath in 80s and Dublin had tougher team than Meath in 70s and 80s. Actually the Meath team of 80s wouldnt get in top 2 tough teams from leinster to be All Ireland champions in last 50 years. The two tougher hardest teams to come from leinster in last 50 years were Dublin team of 70s and early 80s ( 1978 league final v kerry, 1983 final v Galway are most violent finals in gaa history, irish sporting history) and Offaly team of early 70s. Dublins Sean Doherty make Mick lyons look like choir boy. Offaly team of early 70s had really tough reputation. They had full back who was called Iron Man from Rhodes Paddy McCormack. Paddy was only 5 ft 8.
A more significant reason Meath were successful was one word; forwards. Meath always had class forwards, the best forwards in leinster. Why did Meath beat Dublin so much in 80s 90s one of the major reasons was Meath had better forwards than Dublin. Actually every decade Meath had better forwards than Dublin its only in last decade Dublin had better forwards than Meath. Meath had better forwards than Dublin in 40s 50s 60s even 70s. With Colm O Rourke Ken Rennicks Mattie Kerrigan. And of course Meath had better forwards than Dubs in 80s and 90s. Even 00s Meath had better forwards than Dubs. U mentioned the team of 00s the reason they beat kerry Galway Mayo Dublin and Tyone in big championship matchs in 2000s was Meath had class forwards. That team should have won more leinsters and possibly All Ireland in 2010. They had firepower. But had 5 different managers in 7 years whicb meant players were not developed and the upheaval every year of new manager caused inconsistencies in performance. Look at forwards Meath had in 00s Graham Geraghty Ollie Murphy Trevor Giles Joe Sheridan Brian Farrell Cian Ward Stephen Bray David Bray Shane O Rourke Graham Reilly Peadar Byrne.
Why Cork struggled to beat Meath in late 80s was Meath had better forwards. Why Meath won v Mayo in 1996 was Meath had better forwards. Mayo had David Nestor Colm McMeninan James Horan Pj Loftus. Meath had Trevor Giles Graham Geraghty Ollie Murphy Tommy Dowd Evan Kelly Brendan Reilly. Everyone of those Meath forwards won All stars and only 1 Mayo forward on 96 team won All star in their career. Dublin have had better forwards than Meath since 2011 2012. Meath have not produced top class forward since Stephen Bray. Meaths best forward of last 10 years was Mickey Newman. But Mickeys career was destroyed by injury. He was only injury free two seasons. The season 2013 the last leinster final Meath got close to Dublin. And 2019 the year Meath got promoted to div 1 and reached q finals. Its no coincidence that Meath had their best two years in last ten years was the years Meath best forward of their generation was injury free. And Mickey Newman while he was quality forward he wouldn't have being at the level of great Meath footballer of the year forwards like Colm O Rourke Brian Stafford Trevor Giles.
The good news is Meath are producing young quality forwards. Exciting young forwards like Jordan Morris, Eoghan Frayne, Shane Walsh, Matthew Costello, Jack O’Connor, Diarmaid Moriarty, Ruari kinsella. All very young all have potential. Other players like Brian Staffords nephew Rian Stafford and Cian Commins are young forwards at 18 that look like real prospects. But Meath need one of two of these forwards to go up level. Meath need a Conor McManus, a quality div 1 forward. Playerss like Diarmaid Moriarty and Eoghan Frayne have huge potential, but they are inexperienced and at the moment are learning the game.
Next thing I want to mention is a reason I believe is 2 key factors for county to be sucessful. They are identity and driving forces. If you look in the past very few counties where successful and winning titles and that has continued into present. From 1930 to 2000 5 counties were the most successful consistent counties, they were kerry Dublin Galway Cork Meath. All had great gaa identities. Since 2002 only 2 teams and 1 province have won All Irelands while another has being consistently successful but failed to get over the line eg. Mayo. Since 2002 the most successful counties are kerry Dublin Mayo and Ulster counties namely Tyrone Donegal Armagh.
My believe is factor to be sucessful in gaa you need identity and driving force that drive a madness almost in the players to suceed. Pat Spillane has sajd in past that his team he played with had almost mad incredible hunger, incredible drive to succeed. I think most counties lack this curently. Counties like Meath kildare Cork laois and others lack identity and driving force.
So let's look at the few successful counties since 2000. First as sidenote I have to mention Roscommon while not All Ireland contenders and winners have being strong in last ten years. I think West of Ireland is probably gaelic football best provience in GAA at moment, in that it is the number one sport in the province. Also Roscommon have their best team since the brilliant team of 1970s. I think in West of Ireland there is still a sense of community, it still exists. Counties like Mayo and Roscommon gaa club is the center of every town and village. On the East coast sense of community has declined and in many cases doesn't exist. This means clubs on East coast are not centre of towns and village the same way they are in Connacht.
Let's look at successful counties with All Ireland wins since 2002. First you have kerry who have incredible identity. kerry have extraordinary hunger to remain the top team in gaa. For Kerry people the football team is Number 1 in the country. The whole county follows the teams and gaelic football for kerry people there is huge passion. kerrys driving force is to be best to continue the tradition. In my view kerry astonishing 38 All Irelands is greatest achievement in Irish sport and kerry don't get enough credit for their enormous sucess in football.
Than you have Dublin. Since 1974 Heffos Army, Hill 16, Come on ye boys in blue etc. Means Dublin have unique great gaa identity. Dublin as a county has great identity. It is the capital, it has world famous city, and is the centre of economic social cultural political life in the country. The whole country from infrastructure to power resolves around Dublin. And capital city like Madrid Paris London produce strong sucesssful teams. Dublin have great tradition great identity. And since 1974 Dublins had huge hunger desire to become number 1 county. In last 10 years or so Dublin have become number 1 county in GAA. Dublin are now at the top and want to stay at the top.
Than you have Mayo who have unique identity and driving force. For the whole of Mayo the gaelic football team is Number 1. Its like the Mayo football team is the embodiment of Mayo as a county and its people. What's driving Mayo to these finals is an obsession to end the famine and break the curse. So many times you hear Mayo people say before I die I want to see Mayo win Sam. It has become one counties obsession. This is huge driving force for Mayo. Mayo since 1989 have developed one of the best unique great identities in gaa. Mayo football in Mayo stands for everything that Mayos stands for past and present. No other county has connection between its people and gaelic football team the way Mayo have.
The Last team that have being successful are Ulster teams. Ulster teams have best managers best coach's best tactics in Ireland since 2002. But Ulster team have unique identity and driving force. Ulster teams have siege mentality , that everyone is against them. From media down south to unionist neighbours. And we all know siege mentality can fuel a togetherness and sucess within sporting teams. Ulster teams feel siege mentality, that the media down south are against them and teams down south are against them. Ulster teams have unique strong great identity. GAA identity matters more to gaa people in the North than say in kildare Meath laois on the East coast. The Ulster teams live in a part of country occupied by the UK. This gives them more of siege mentality. And being under British rules means Ulster teams have love passion for gaa, a gaa identity that matters more than counties down south. Their passion of gaa is central to who they are, their backgrounds and their Irish identity. There is extraordinary passion love for GAA in Ulster. This had led to great Ulster teams anf great Ulster players. If it wasn't for Ulster teams Dublin and kerry would have won last 22 All Irelands ( exception is Cork in 2010).
Just to mention Cork Cork identity driving forces doesn't feel as strong as it was in the past. Look at Cork hurlers and Cork footballers. Cork hurlers its 20 years since they won All Ireland, that's longest time ever for Cork. Cork footballers are at their lowest since 1950s.
So where do Meath come. Meath had great identity in the past. Similar to Ulster teams Meath had siege mentality. Everyone against Meath. One of the reasons Meath were successful in past is because of Dublin louth Kildare Westmeath. Meath local rivalries meant Meath were battle harden when they left province. No other gaa football county had as many rivals on its border than Meath. Meath have 8 neighbouring counties. This had meant wherever you where in Meath you would have kildare Dublin Westmeath louth fan who would call u Meath f*###r. And hated you and this gave a sense of belonging identity to Meath. Than the rivalries with Louth 40s 50s and with kildare and Westmeath in 90s 00s and especially the rivalries with Dubs in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s 00s meant Meath had identity everyone is against us and those battled with Louth Kildare Westmeath and especially Dublin were the making of Meath teams.
Those battles with Dubln especially have stopped. Meath footballers were obsessed with Dublin in the past. Mick Lyons says playing Dublin was matter of life and Death. Great Meaths players in 40s 50s 60s like Jack Quinn and Paddy O'brien were obsessed with beating Dublin. So were greats of 80s 90s Colm O'Rourke Graham Geraghty John McDermott Tommy Dowd Mick lyons all obsessed with beating Dublin. It drove Meath teams through brick walls. Beating Dublin in leinster turns leinster teams into Alll Ireland contenders overnight. However today Dublin have gone so far ahead of Meath, Meath teams have struggled to compete v Dubs in recent times. Meath teams its seems the gap is to big close in last 15 years.The decline of Meath v Dublin rivalry has had hugely negative impact on Meath football.
Also the doubling of Meaths population in last 20 years meand Meaths identity was lessened. Meath has gone from rural county with average population to county with huge suburban areas and huge population. However there is hope that this population explosion could be factor in new Meath resurgence. Look at the Meath ladies. How they came from nowhere to suceed. They represent new modern Meath identity. They have players from gaa Meath heartlands like Summerhill Skyrne and small northern villages but significantly so many of them come from southern suburbs towns like Rataoth Ashbourne Dunboyne. This area is new stronghold of Meath gaa. Its similar to growth of gaa southern Dublin suburbs. Country people from Western seaboard came up to Dublin joined the local gaa club and became key members in the club. These country people from kerry Donegal became parents and their sons went on to win 6 in a row all Irelands for Dublin. The same is happening i Meath, country people moving to Meath suburbs and their children becoming Meath footballers. The first 20 years was difficult for Meath with population growth but it does seems with Meath ladies, Meath could possibly have new identity built on their old identity. Look at the adies how Meath v Dublin rivalry has become important. Meath ladies footballers are obsessed with beating Dublin the same way Meath men for generation were. Players like Emma Duggan represent the new Meath, her father great player from laois moves to Dunboyne and his daughter becomes best footballer in Ireland and potentially best ever ladies footballer ever. It does seem there is swagger back to Meath sportpeople and you can see it ftom Emma Duggan Vicki Wall Gordon Elliot to one of the best young footballers on the planet, Bettytown Evan Ferguson. And of course you have other Meath men making impact in soccer with Dunboynes Blackburn Daragh lenihan Enfield Burley Luke McNally Athboy Jamie McGrath and new exciting star of Irish soccer Navans Sam Curtis. The point is for 20 years Meaths sportspeople lacked confidence. Now today in 2020s when I look at the Meath ladies, Meath minors, top class soccer players, it seems a new generation of sportpeople are emerging in Meath with a new swagger and inner confidence and new identity. Just like great Meath gaa players like Graham Geraghty Mick lyons Colm O Rourke Ollie Murphy had swagger inner confidence in the past.
I am optimistic Meath could have a good gaa team in 2 to 3 years time and I expect Meath to be much stronger in the next 20 years than previous 20 years. Because Meath in previous 20 years lacked underage sucess and Meath are now producing underage sucesss and I think personally Meath will improve, slowly and surely. What they achieve I haven't a clue that will depend on how good the manager are and how good the players are. It does feel we are now entering a new era in Meath football.
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Big game in Navan on Sunday Meath v Louth. For the second year in a row Meath have home advantage. Their mental fragility last year could be traced back to a catastrophic collapse in the final stages of their third round game against Louth. I remember being in Clones watching Monaghan v Roscommon and thinking that the Mickey Harte project was looking very shaky. Louth had 2 points going into the Meath game and Meath had 4. Louth finished the League with 8 points, having lost out to Dublin in a winner takes all final round game. Meath managed just 1 more point in a draw with Limerick, the only point that Limerick got. And of course they finished up in the Tailteann.
"A storming finale from Louth in Navan secured a memorable comeback win, boosting their Division 2 survival hopes and perhaps as importantly earning the local bragging rights. Meath looked all set to take the spoils in the north-eastern derby when they led by five points with just 14 minutes remaining despite playing with 14 men for all of the second-half following Harry O'Higgins' dismissal. But a stunning final quarter turnaround saw Louth outscore the Royals by 1-6 to 0-1 in the closing minutes with Ciaran Downey and substitute Craig Lennon providing the inspirational scores."
This year Meath are looking equally fragile, while Louth have performed well. The big change this year is that Mickey Harte has moved on. That might be the factor which is making the bookies give Meath the favourites tag. Meath 5/6, Draw 7/1, Louth 5/4.
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All you need to know about the third round games, according to RTE.
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Decent 1st half in Croker
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only annoying thing is the pitch, like an ice rink, players slipping and sliding all over the shop… what’s up with that ? Anyone changing direction quickly or stopping suddenly and it’s a lottery as to them staying on their feet… Dublin would have had a straightforward goal chance if not for one of the forwards taking a tumble with nobody near him.
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Could be a League title for that Derry team. Racking up some good wins
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Ref riding Kerry.. last Mayo score from the ’free’ was ridiculous… 😅😅
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Was sent a clip of Davy Burke's post-match interview where he says Roscommon have trained 65 times already.
To what end?
If he ends up getting a pro contract, I'd say Beggan won't believe how lucky he is that he won't be flogged as much in a professional sport as GAA teams are presently. Mahomes probably doesn't train 65 times throughout the year.
All too serious.
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He also called out the team saying that he never had the full panel present for any session and given the marginal losses they all need to show up to be real contenders.
Might be easier to have a full house if there were fewer sessions...
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‘To what end?’……a very relevant question.
Reality is the more training sessions the more lucre the expanded Management team earn.physios,Statisticians,S+C coaches etc.As long as Manager is happy with the number of training sessions their helpers aren’t going to complain.
It cannot be good for players to have that much work put in already bearing in mind that it’s only the middle of February.
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Couldn't help but picture Mick the barman from Savage Eye when you said that.
Depends on what he means by "training". Not every session has to be physically intense and some could be more about tactics, movement and even involve a day of mostly sitting down in a "classroom"
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Mayo putting it up to Kerry
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kerry pulling away now and Mayo down to 14 men.
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Kerry in second gear.
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