Handrails on stairs necessary?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665158#Comment_121665158

As mellor said, last he checked the UK and Irish stair regs were identical in many requirements.  Obviously we do not have building control or residential building inspectors like they have there, but if a handrail was required on 3 steps by our neighbours on each side ( UK and US ), would it not be be reasonable to suspect it would be required here too? Especially as it would make it safer having the handrail? But no, it is not.

I have no idea what building regs are like in Israel, I would suspect they are similar to other western countries like USA and UK. I could not care less what they are like in Israel but if you want to find out these people may point you in the right direction.

https://www.sii.org.il/en/building-systems

Penn

Actually, seems like the US standards may be more aligned with the Irish TGDs.

1. 4. Changes in room elevations of three or fewer risers within dwelling units and sleeping units in Groups R-2 and R-3 do not require handrails.

https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IBC2021P1/chapter-10-means-of-egress/IBC2021P1-Ch10-Sec1011.11

The OSHA requirement for handrails was previously posted, but that's related to workplaces, not dwellings.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665158#Comment_121665158

Because it beats accepting that there was nothing untoward in the programme re: regs.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665215#Comment_121665215

No need to push the blame on to someone else. You were the first to bring UK regs into the discussion. Post no 12.

So you couldn't care less about the regs of one foreign country but desperately want to discuss the regs of another foreign country. I really can't figure that out.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665659#Comment_121665659

Discuss the regs in Israel if you want, but seeing as the UK is our next door neighbour and we share the same common language etc, and as mellor said, "last (he or she) checked the UK and Irish stair regs were identical in many requirements", it is interesting to note our regs on handrails for 3 steps are more lax here than there.

Even if the regs do not require it here, I think it would make sense to put a handrail beside those steps down in to the kitchen/dining/living area. Especially for visitors or elderly, and when there is a nice view out the window at the end of the room up to the Rock of Cashel. Eyes could be distracted to where feet are going very easily. Accidents do happen, and good design should strive to minimise risk.

Also would make sense to put a proper handrail on that cheap main stairs in the house (to upstairs), instead of having to grip on that awful raw vertical plywood edge. As Kalimah ( another poster on this thread) said " Twenty odd years ago I had a fall on a stairs at home and except for a handrail I would have been badly injured. As it was I strained ligaments in my knee and wrenched my arm. I wpn't go down any stairs now without holding a handrail".

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665699#Comment_121665699

If the US regs are aligned with the Irish regs, if anything it could be said that rather than our regs being more lax than the UK, the UK regs are more severe than most international regs.

Regardless, "I think it would make sense to put a handrail beside those steps" is simply irrelevant to the discussion. It's in compliance with the regulations. You mentioned in numerous posts that you hope nobody has an accident on those steps. Obviously everybody hopes that for all steps. But I've known people who have fallen down full flights of steps, or even the last few steps on a full staircase, where there were handrails and everything with fully in compliance with all regulations. Accidents happen. The regulations are designed to be as preventative and cautionary as possible, but also as accommodating and "one size fits all" as possible. But part of the reason why handrails aren't a requirement on three or fewer steps is because once you start falling forward, your arm is more likely to be past the end of the handrail anyway.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665798#Comment_121665798

If you trip or start falling, it is often too late - especially if you were an elderly or frail person, for example. That is why they often like handrails.

The added advantage of having a handrail on the wall is that it is an indication that there are steps present. Having a sudden drop of 3 steps without any indication, in the ground floor of a house where you do not usually have a sudden drop, is simply dangerous, especially for visitors or elderly people not familiar with the house.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665798#Comment_121665798

An eyewatering 6000 people a year still die in home accidents in the UK and thousands more are injured. I can't find figures for here but i wouldn't imagine it is dis-similar per capita.

Clearly, regs and guidance help but you cannot regulate away accidents.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666191#Comment_121666191

Of course you cannot regulate away accidents all together, but you can strive to make homes as safe as possible. Cars manufacturers, for example, go to great lengths and expense to strive to make cars as safe as possible. Yet accidents at home accounted for almost half of major traumatic injuries in children, for example. Elderly people are probably even more likely to trip and fall and injure themselves in a house.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40244792.html

Of course falls are not the only cause of trauma, some kids for example suffer serious head injuries like they could if they knocked in to the corner of that great big piece of Roscommon granite projecting out - cantilevered some would say - in the kitchen last Sunday night, at head height for a young child running around.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666272#Comment_121666272

You don't need a house to fall Francis.

People will fall regardless of regs or stringency of regs.

All that has been established over and over.

You asked:

 would it even meet building regs?

Do you accept that it does?

There is no ambiguous answer, no diversions available, you either accept what has been posted here or you don't.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666289#Comment_121666289

I answered the question you above already ( post no. 30 ).

I wrote: "they appear to be compliant with Irish Building Regs. Thank you.

I am still not sure if the raw edge of the plywood on the stairs would comply with regs ( it is certainly not a user-friendly handrail ) but I suppose we can give it the benefit of the doubt as I suppose it could be used as a handrail ( even if you got a splinter in your hand)."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say "You don't need a house to fall Francis.

People will fall regardless of regs or stringency of regs."

No, you do not need a house to fall: you could fall anywhere. However handrails exist to make it safer, especially for elderly, frail, visitors etc.

Some people have had life changing injuries as a result of falls from stairs or steps. If you are designing something, you should make it safe, or as safe as reasonably possible.

What do you think about the corner of that that granite kitchen worktop cantilevered out on the programme last Sunday night : could you picture an unfortunate child running in to it if playing in the house? Obviously hopefully not, I saw a child with their head split open once, not a pretty sight.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666272#Comment_121666272

You could go the full bore and have black and yellow hazard tape on the steps, fall arrest harness, padding on the floor....

They're a few steps in someone's house. They meet the regulations. They're simply not an issue. If someone elderly or ambulant disabled was going to be regularly using the stairs, the clients would have asked for a handrail. Sorry, but this is all simply a non-issue.

As for the kitchen countertop, the exact same thing could be said of the edge of a kitchen table, or kitchen island which may have an overhang. Or a coffee table in a Living room. Hell a child could jump off a chair or bed and injure themselves. Again, this is a non-issue.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666349#Comment_121666349

People use the edge of plywood on all manner of things, cupboard doors and panelling. You can seal it to be safe but as I previously suggested, this was probably something that was waiting to be finished with solid wood edging.

Nowhere does RTI say it is showing fully finished houses. Didn't stop the Miss Marplish theories though.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666375#Comment_121666375

The problem is that when you come to retrofit a handrail, possibly two handrails, you don't have enough available width for proper handrails without narrowing the stair. It's always better to include these things as part of the initial design rather than trying to shoehorn them in later on.

Kids are a good use case for handrails. Have a look at most of the staircases at Dundrum Town Centre, and you'll see dual height handrails, both for kids and adults. They know their market.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667329#Comment_121667329

Odds are though, retrofitting a handrail on one side isn't going to leave the steps so narrow as to be unuseable or non-compliant. Even then it would have to be considered which is the more important thing depending on the users of the private house; wider steps or a handrail. Particularly when the steps are between existing walls and can't be widened regardless.

And while your points about the handrails at Dundrum etc are fair, they're also irrelevant to a house. Not only are regulations different, but also insurance and liability may result in the designers going above and beyond and be far in excess of the minimum requirements.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666377#Comment_121666377

When RTE shows the party at the end, and they are discussing the build (past tense) over a glass of bubbly, it is implied the builder and carpenter are finished working on the inside of the house.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666375#Comment_121666375

If you look at the potential danger of kids running in to the corner of the granite worktop cantilevered out, without a leg or anything supporting it or acting as a warning to small kids / toddlers, you cannot really compare it to a coffee table. If you go to most kitchen manufacturers, they will warn of the dangers of having hard solid things projecting out at eye / head level for kids.

See picture 4 below.

https://cococontent.ie/episode-3-knocklyon-room-to-improve-series-15

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669523#Comment_121669523

The kitchen island in this is no different to the vast majority of standard kitchen islands/breakfast bars with similar overhangs, regularly designed and installed by most kitchen manufacturers.

It's also irrelevant to this discussion regarding handrails, unless you're just trying to pick up on things which only featured in Room To Improve.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669523#Comment_121669523

When RTE shows the party at the end, and they are discussing the build (past tense) over a glass of bubbly, it is implied the builder and carpenter are finished working on the inside of the house.

Then the ply edges are probably sealed. Why would you want potential splinters when it can be easily remedied?

Also, it wouldn't be uncommon that the main contractors would leave something like this to be finished by somebody else or that they pretended to be finished for the purposes of the programme.

Re: looking for potential accidents in order to dis the designers.

A child could easily climb onto this seat and fall off it and bash their heads. Or Granny could have too much cheap Prosecco and try to dance on this and fall and break her hip!!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669291#Comment_121669291

A single one handrail on one side only is a poor solution. When someone is carrying a baby, or laundry or has limited power on one side after a stroke, they need handrails on both sides.

Dermot designs for himself, not for everyone.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669824#Comment_121669824

+1. Even if he had a proper handrail on one side I think it would be ok, but he had not even that. Nor did he say it had to be finished or anything to that effect. The builders were finished.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669842#Comment_121669842

No rules/regs/guidelines were broken.

So basically it comes down to whether the homeowners feel as you do. All issues can easily be addressed if they wish.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669842#Comment_121669842

It's the clients that decide the final finish.

They obviosuly think it's ok.

Whether you do or not is irrelevant.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669906#Comment_121669906

There is a requirement for handrails on a stairs. It is open to debate if that raw edge of vertical ply could be considered a handrail or not.

Even in the UK, where virtually all handrails are proper handrails and there are building inspectors / building control ( unlike here) to ensure same, they find that ( and I quote) : "Falls on steps and stairs are a leading cause of accidental death in the home, with at least 700 people dying as a result of falling on domestic stairs every year. Falls between levels tend to affect young children the most. Each year, they account for more than 80 deaths and more than 54,000 visits to A&E, 4,000 of which are likely to result in hospital admissions."

Why make stairs in Cashel more dangerous than they need to be?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669919#Comment_121669919

They will think it ok until somebody falls on them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669906#Comment_121669906

They can't easily address fitting proper handrails to the stairs, due to the stair width.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669976#Comment_121669976

It is open to debate if that raw edge of vertical ply could be considered a handrail or not.

No it isn't 'open to debate', it has been 'debated' and it is fully within the guidelines and you don not know if the plywood is 'raw'.

As I said, plywood edges are considered an attractive finish by some people for panelling and doors. The plywood in these instances is sealed and does not splinter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121669982#Comment_121669982

I was not talking about the stairs.l They are fine and within the guidelines and as safe as any stairs can be. The steps may be an issue for them and can be retrofitted.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670222#Comment_121670222

No, they're not as safe as a stairs with a decent handrail on each side.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670255#Comment_121670255

Well, I think you would have to produce some data on that one.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670255#Comment_121670255

And they are not even as safe as a stairs with a proper handrail either....in my opinion just a proper handrail on one side would do. (which the house in Cashel does not have )

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670280#Comment_121670280

These are 'opinions'.