Company not confirming or rejecting vacation - Mod warning post #51

Tell me how

OP, your manager is probably inexperienced, and doesn't want to commit to something they feel they might regret. Whoever appointed them to the role should be giving them guidance in areas like this and how to develop the soft skills necessary for their role.

If I were guiding them, I'd suggest they'd ask people to submit any holiday requests that they are aware they will want within a week or so and then approve or discuss accordingly. First come first serve should account for a lot, but with all requests sent by the end of the week being treated as arriving at the same time, not 'well this one came in on Tuesday and this one on Wednesday' type thing. If someone comes in March asking for easter week off, they shouldn't be too put off if others who requested that time in January were granted it.

bbbbb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

yes, the manager is probably trying to avoid a first come first served approach here. Having said that, they shouldnt leave you hanging more than a week or so.

well24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

I think Jim does a fair amount of discrimination...

Who decides who has a far better claim to holidays? You, god help them...

OMG how can you be a manager, seriously..

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

It is really unfair to give anyone preference on time off, in particular due to having "school going children".

Child free people (and also people without caring responsibilities) are equally entitled to their choice of time off and to not have their applications given lower priority or declined in favour of Mary or John who wants the same two weeks in July off but they have kids.

That's basically leaving the company open to a claim of discrimination on grounds of family status.

well24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

Can you show where its stated that companies are entitled to ask staff to plan their whole year at the start of the year, seriously?

In any case if they do this (which means they probably have other unrealistic policies) good luck to them keeping staff...

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573977#Comment_121573977

Yes, that is the Norm. Permission is really only required for short term notice. If a manager cannot handle six months notice then they are not really a 'manager'.

well24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573669#Comment_121573669

Im waiting.... he's getting a fair ould bashing and rightly so for the power trip he is on...tw$t

Hopefully he may see the error in his ways and we can actually improve conditions for the poor sods who he manages!

Jim disappeared pretty quickly

SVI40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

They can ask all they like. It does not mean they have to be answered.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573903#Comment_121573903

Not at all. My previous post could all in a 5 minute chat following up on the previous one to make him more receptive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574136#Comment_121574136

He's old and retired I believe. Also a gowl.

Akrasia

I work in a job that involves speaking with loads of HR managers from all different sectors. They mostly want people to book their leave early and their biggest headache are people who leave it to the last minute.

It is completely normal for people to book their summer holidays in January and ridiculous to refuse to approve leave because not everyone has submitted their requests.

One scenario where it might be reasonable is if summer leave only became requestable in January, and not all staff have returned from christmas holidays yet, a manager might want to wait until next week to allow everyone a reasonable time to get their request in. (this happens in more 'cutthroat' companies with very tight rosters and strict rules around leave requests

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574105#Comment_121574105

Many companies have policies where only x number of team members can be on leave at the same time.

In summer where people might take 3 weeks at once, this can be difficult to balance, so maybe the manager wants to make sure there is enough cover if one or more staff have requested extended holidays.

Some might be flexible with their dates, while others have commitments that they've already informed their manager of (getting married for example)

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573853#Comment_121573853

You might want to work on your reading comprehension: I said that it's something that some companies do. I didn't say that it's something I do/did, or that I think it's a good idea.

Yes, I'm in my 50s. But thankfully I haven't had to manage staff for over 15 years. And even then, it wasn't in a challenging operational environment, so I almost never declined an application.

For those saying an employer cannot take account of family responsibilities: Nonsense, not only is it allowed, its legally required. There are lots of links confirming this, here's one from a union, no less:

https://www.siptu.ie/services/workersrightscentre/knowyourrights/annualleave/

granturismo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574029#Comment_121574029

Employers must take into account family needs when assessing annual leave - we take annual leave in this country, vacation in the US.

See here for a summary of the Organisation of Working Time Act:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/annual-leave/

Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must:

• Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation.
• Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574191#Comment_121574191

Well then the manager should have a process in place where he gives a deadline for all staff to select their proposed holiday dates. Then he can work out that and approve the dates before people book.

If there is no process an place and someone then books six months in advance then the manager really needs to suck it up and organise cover. Every winter all workplaces need to deal with multiple people out sick with no notice. That is just dealt with.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574191#Comment_121574191

Op stated he was in with the request early before other people so no issue

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574207#Comment_121574207

Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must:

• Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation.
• Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.

Employer's can take into account your family responsibilities, when deciding to approve or decline your application for annual leave - but they should not use one employee's family responsibilites to determine the outcome of another employee's application for annual leave.

If they do, they may find themselves in front of the WRC.

twin_beacon

Do you think giving your new manager an ultimatum in the first week is a good idea?

Nody

Mod:

Since we appear to have new joiners here welcome to boards.ie and I recommend reading up on the forum charter before you post to get an idea on what's ok or not. Secondly a moderator is a normal poster outside the forum they moderate; I and Stheno are the only moderators here who can lock threads etc. in this forum. I've had to issue multiple warnings in this thread so far; I hope from this point forward I don't. You discuss the post and not the poster; that's a boards.ie wide rule and several of you have crossed that line in this thread which we hope not to see again.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574278#Comment_121574278

Maybe he does, maybe he needs to consult with another manager to work out headcounts in summer before making a decision.. Maybe there was a misinterpretation in the OP.

Regardless, it's only been a few days and many people are not back from Xmas leave yet. If I was the OP I'd be pushing for a decision next week

Deub

It should be pretty simple and clear. Ask everyone to put their summer holidays preference by [date] and say they will get a response within 10 days after that. Same for Christmas.

The OP could suggest this. I am sure a manager prefers to see an employee approaching them with a solution rather than an ultimatum.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574131#Comment_121574131

Correct.

And in some cases, if you don't put in an application by the deadline, you will find that you are allocated annual leave from the dates that are left after everyone else's applications have been processed: Enjoy your summer holiday in November!

(I've never applied a system like this. I don't like it. But I know of places that do.)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573802#Comment_121573802

Well perhaps the hint is in "New Manager"....

The reality is that no matter how you try to do it some people will always be upset with the outcome. So it might well be that after this years experience the new manager might revert to the old manager's solution.

Harika

Thanks for your comments so far.

My manager is well experienced with 15+ years doing that, and came in from some other part of the org.

We have SOPs, that I followed. Myself, I am approving the vacation for my staff, as I am the middle manager. SOPs don't state any timeframe a vacation request is reviewed.

My main complaint is the delay in approval or rejection. If that specific date does not suit the company, more than happy to pick a different one.

My manager has 10 people reporting to him, until everyone has reported their vacation wishes it will be February what influences holiday costs, my partner also requesting holiday, the rest of the family that want to go with us. I need to add, that it seems also people that are not yet hired, but are replacing recent leavers are expected to submit their holiday wishes before a decision is made. This will move the process further into the year.

I pinpointed this to my manager, who became tightlipped grunting "There will be a lot of changes you don't like"

it seems best to keep pushing to get this over the line asap.

Waldo99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573800#Comment_121573800

Hope you aren’t involved in recruitment.

That is blatant age discrimination.

IrishOwl...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573800#Comment_121573800

Not to change the topic of the subject, but you do realise it's against employment law in Ireland to age discriminate against anyone when actively hiring for a role?

IrishOwl...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

You do realise you actually can't decide leave around 99% of the issues you just mentioned? Prioritising someone with school going children over someone without for example, would be a huge red flag. I don't know what country you work in, but it seems to be extremely backwards to how 99% of the developed world operates.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574958#Comment_121574958

Ouch.

Brush up your CV and start job hunting.

Seriously. Leave dates are the least of your problems right now.

listermint

Sounds like a prick tbh. Look for moves out from this area, and book the holidays.