Company not confirming or rejecting vacation - Mod warning post #51

Harika

Hi,

I usually booked vacation with my old manager who confirmed on the day. He left and on Monday I put in vacation for July. Today I asked my new manager about it and he said he will wait until everyone from the department has submitted their vacation requests to then decide on it. That could be weeks or even months away.

Citizen information has nothing up about best practices here.

I am inclined to send an email and ask to confirm or decline the request until Monday else I see it as approved.

Any other ideas how to handle that?

Mod warning post 51.

mcgragger

ask him again verbally and in writing.

You are entitled to your annual leave regardless of everyone else and if your request is in first then you should be granted

mcgragger

and there has to be good reason to deny it of which there are not many.

He's showing a bit of inexperience here with his answer to you

thefa

I would approach the manager calmly and say you’ve been thinking about it more and are concerned about things like the potential increasing holiday costs by leaving bookings for weeks/months longer or how other weeks won’t suit or the uncertainty for anyone else you might be going with. Maybe these mightn’t be issues for you but fair points to bring up.

You may have already told him but I would be reiterating that it’s a big change from how it was done previously and could be viewed as disadvantaging you despite being the most organized. Is it fair that a person in a few months time might want the same time, when’s the deadline for submissions and what will the criteria be for deciding between you then?

Hopefully the above would highlight some of the good points of how it previously worked. If he’s insistent, you could politely ask does this align with the HR policy and request the detail so that you know for the future.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058329641/company-not-confirming-or-rejecting-vacation

So you want it declined then, because that is the answer I give you if you tried it with me. Giving people ultimatums on things you want very rarely work out and managers like everyone else don’t like people telling them what to do so it might have unexpected consequences!

You need to draw a distinction between what your old manager did, what your company policy is and the law. You are entitled to your leave, but it is with the agreement of the company, so what does the company policy say.

If you have a very good reason to need early approval then I’d suggest you go and make your case to the manager, but if your only reason is because we always did it that way…. Might not be such a good move.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573435#Comment_121573435

Nothing wrong with early approval and people being organised about their time off.

OP - the email could certainly be worded differently to be less confrontational.

Edit-misread original post, I see the holiday had not been approved by previous manager.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573435#Comment_121573435

You sound exactly like the type of nightmare manager who has small man syndrome and thinks dangling the approval of a holiday over a worker gives them a bit of power. Depressing amount of such people in Ireland.

OP, your employer must take into account your family responsibilities as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation. In this case, availability of your holidays will affect flight prices, times, hotel room availability etc..any reasonable employer will accomodate your annual leave dates once you give them a fair bit of notice. At least a month or longer if possible. I would verbally state to this your boss again, outlining that you wish to apply on X date for Y number of days and that you need confirmation in the next week due to family availability reasons. Remember you are entitled by law to your holidays.

If they are still vague on the answer i would contact your union rep for advice or HR if you dont have one. You need to be assertive on this as too many managers think you must serve on their alter and be working 24/7.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573435#Comment_121573435

I hope you aint a manager as you sound like a very unreasonble inexperienced

I seriously cannot believe you think any of that.... small man syndrome to be sure

Haha your a moderator, makes sense...

TBH I cannot see the problem approving holidays for July, plenty of notice, what has other staff holidays got to do with it, they asked first. You think the manager should get all the staff requests and then decides who takes time when - favouritism should not be part of company policy.. I think first come first serve is the common sense way, and fairest!

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573435#Comment_121573435

Don't take this as offence but that's terrible management. You cannot wait until everyone books their time for the year that's completely unfair on the People that want to book and don't want to book. Some people are flaky others have families and wish to plan properly ahead.

The manager should look at what's in see what work is scheduled and then make the appropriate decision. Not get their back up.

This style of management is terrible and won't stand to you nor the company/dept you're in or running.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573569#Comment_121573569

Thank God I have never had to manage an Irish person in my life. I have over the past three decades managed lots of people from all sorts of backgrounds. And your post is indicative of a certain type of individual who thinks it's all about them, their rights and needs over the rest of the team and the employer. I think the modern terms are Kens and Karens!

The fact is that everyone on the team, not just you, has the same entitlement to holidays and they all want to get the best weather, the nicest hotels and the cheapest flights. And some people will have far better claims on certain weeks than others - people who have school going children, caregivers, special family occasions, people who need to cover for each other, keeping key team members happy and a whole lot of other issues that have to be taken into account when agreed the holiday schedules. Every manager has their own approach to solving the holidays problem and it looks like this new manager is going to try the Wisdom of Solomon approach.

In my experience the Kens and Karens don’t really get nearly as far in the work place as they think they do. Oh they will get exactly what they are entitled to, but they will loose every 50/50 decision with their colleagues and managers. There are smart ways of achieving the objectives that these people will never figure out.

mikewebber

I'd say you're some manager looking down on your colleagues as Ken's and karens

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573704#Comment_121573704

There are some companies that ask people to book their leave at the start of the year. They are perfectly entitled to do so.

First-come first-served is a terrible approach because it doesn't take account of everyone's needs and family obligations, or the company's customer commitments.

Murt2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

Your very lucky you don’t manage in Ireland because you wouldn’t get past probation period. Your management style is from the 90’s. That doesn’t happen in any decent work place in Ireland now as people will jump ship with the amount of opportunities out there. Curious question are you in middle to late 50’s? This is why my company don’t hire older people, always promote young within the company for management roles and actively try to get rid of these types of managers.

Employers are more flexible with work from now and guess what some actually allow you to pick your own hours or work from home full time. Who knew that management is changing!

OP I’m a manager of a team. The likely reason your boss is slightly fobbing you off is he only joined the company and doesn’t want to be making any mistakes early on that could leave him Jepordized.

A friendly email next week like.

Hi Mr X,

Hope your settling in well and if need anything feel free to reach out to me.

I was just following up on my email about the annual leave. We were hoping to book flights for a family event that week in July. I’m hoping you can accommodate me with the seven months notice.

if there’s any major issue please let me know.

Regards

OP

RurtBeynolds

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

Waiting until everyone has holidays submitted is objectively terrible management.

It's perfectly acceptable for someone who gives months of notice in advance to expect a swift approval/denial. Having to wait for everyone else to submit their requests is utterly ridiculous. How long should they have to wait? May? June? And then they get denied, then what?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

This type of stuff is terrible for staff frankly it forces people to plan 12 months in advance. Companies that do this are ridiculous it's 1980s style management and operating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

What an absolute gowl

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573802#Comment_121573802

The only thing that could be justified is some sort of circular stating asking people to get requests in by mid January or whatever and then stating that people with later requests will have to fit in with the early allocations done after that first process.

Murt2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

This is actually horrendous management. I’ve worked in numerous top IT companies and no manager acts like this and if they did they’d be on a training programme after complaints from employees or after employees handing in their notice after securing new jobs and having to negotiate with them to stay. I bet Mrs O Bumble is another in her mid 50’s. I’ve seen it all before.

893bet

You are a Ken/Karen to try book a week of giving them company 6 months to plan for cover that week?

Right…..

So a manger with 6 months notice can’t plan for that weeks absense?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573853#Comment_121573853

It's mostly done in call centres and the like.

893bet

Holidays are golden. Keep your staff happy. If you don’t you won’t have them.

A colleague (different department) asked last year for a few weeks off unpaid for personal reasons. Refused. They went out sick for 4 months. Company didn’t fold in their absence.

Softened management cough a little. They are back now. I wouldnt have the balls personally but this person is 5-6 years from retirement and isn’t worried about career progression at this point. Not an action I condone; and unfair on their colleagues…..but Fair **** to them I say; all staff benefit from the power flex longer term.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

Lol , its an Irish people problem now . I've managed people within Europe and America and don't go on like this. Bizarre self important guff.

Chaos Black

For what it is worth - I was new to an area a while back and had a staff member submit an annual leave request on my 1st week in. I told them to hold off, which I think they probably found off putting. My reasoning was I needed to get my feet under the desk and find out what staffing requirements were needed for that time period, business deliverables and normal practice in the area.

I agree getting everyone to submit leave is an odd way of doing it, but perhaps it was like my example just a way of getting some breathing space and the person will let you know soon what the story is? Could always follow up with them in a couple of weeks.

SVI40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

This sounds like the type of management you get from a vindictive person. Worked on a team where we had one. He's no longer about.

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

I have to take umbrage with two conflicting points here. You say "And your post is indicative of a certain type of individual who thinks it's all about them, their rights and needs over the rest of the team" and then you say "And some people will have far better claims on certain weeks than others - people who have school going children" - So why exactly would one employee's "rights and needs" be better/higher up the ladder than mine just because they decided to pop out a few kids? That's absolutely ridiculous. If they want that time off to be with their kids then they should be organised and book it off at the start of the leave year. It's not my problem if Mary-Anne comes cribbing in May that she wants time off with her kids in July the same week that I booked back in January. Time off should be based on who asked first. Nothing more, nothing less. It's the only fair way to do it, or else your time off is coming down to a manager making a decision based on their values and what they PERSONALLY believe in. Opinion shouldn't come into the decision making process for something like this at all.

That's the way it's done where I work, so I know if I wait until the middle of the year to book some time off and someone has already booked the days I want then that's my own fault. I don't go crying about my personal circumstances or why I need the time more than them.

Edited to correct spelling of umbrage.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573382#Comment_121573382

Way too much conversation here , just ask again and tell him you're booking it today

Donald Trump

I also had experience of working under an incompetent manager who also couldn't plan a few months ahead.

In the end up I just used to book my travel anyway even if they delayed approving it ..... which it often was for months and months. I mean, I was able to figure out when I'd need to be back by months in advance, whereas the gobsh1te whose alleged job it was to manage things wasn't.

Either way I was going on the trip. If I wasn't coming back, it was their loss. I think I once booked and submitted for approval in June to travel home for Christmas, and it was officially approved in the system at the end of the year (i.e. just before Dec 31st ........ when I was already gone on the trip).

Smee_Again

In 10 years of working in multi-nationals reporting to managers, directors and VPs I have not once had annual leave "approved". I log it, inform my manager, arrange cover if possible and enjoy my time off.

@Jim2007 Aren't you retired? Sounds like the world and management styles have passed you by.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

Ha ha you just exposed your character completely with that ill informed rant, and confirmed you are completely biased and out of touch with employment law when you state that school based childrem should be prioritsed over other people. Thats exactly the type of attitude that has cost countless companies up and down the country thousands of euros in WRC and discrimination claims.

You are aware that every employee is entitled to their annual leave, once its requested in a reasonable timeframe? It doesnt matter if they have kids, are single, looking after sick parents, if they are 19 or 64. They dont even have to tell you why or where they are going on holidays and its illegal to ask. By your thinking, all families get the green light first and the single person can get the crumbs once everyone else is back from their trip. I thought that archaic dictatorship style had faded away but obviously not. Reasonable managers will try to get a compromise if 2 people want the same dates. Do you really think you will get any goodwill or leeway from your employees if you dictate when they take holidays and create some bizzare hierarchy of importance when approving holidays? It works both ways, you treat your workers with respect you get the same back.

I imagine thats an alien concept to you though, given your attitude towards workers who want their annual leave and your naming of them as Kens and Karens plus generalising all Irish workers as entitled for claiming a basic employment right. I can guarantee you none of your former employees like you at all and they have a choice few names for you, too. And if you think otherwise you are a legend in your own mind!

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

It's not a companies place to assess family needs when permitting vacation. That's very dangerous territory for a company to venture in to in fact. Not saying that managers should exclude all references to the external circumstances around a break, but aside from that it should be left to individuals to voluntarily step back and give those with family the opportunity to take vacation during school breaks for example.

I've seen it a lot over the years where people without families or partners might be willing to work during a typical family break period both for their own reasons and because they're being accommodating to their colleagues with family, but allowing management to control this is a mindset from the last century.

Tell me how

OP, your manager is probably inexperienced, and doesn't want to commit to something they feel they might regret. Whoever appointed them to the role should be giving them guidance in areas like this and how to develop the soft skills necessary for their role.

If I were guiding them, I'd suggest they'd ask people to submit any holiday requests that they are aware they will want within a week or so and then approve or discuss accordingly. First come first serve should account for a lot, but with all requests sent by the end of the week being treated as arriving at the same time, not 'well this one came in on Tuesday and this one on Wednesday' type thing. If someone comes in March asking for easter week off, they shouldn't be too put off if others who requested that time in January were granted it.

bbbbb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

yes, the manager is probably trying to avoid a first come first served approach here. Having said that, they shouldnt leave you hanging more than a week or so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

I think Jim does a fair amount of discrimination...

Who decides who has a far better claim to holidays? You, god help them...

OMG how can you be a manager, seriously..

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573723#Comment_121573723

It is really unfair to give anyone preference on time off, in particular due to having "school going children".

Child free people (and also people without caring responsibilities) are equally entitled to their choice of time off and to not have their applications given lower priority or declined in favour of Mary or John who wants the same two weeks in July off but they have kids.

That's basically leaving the company open to a claim of discrimination on grounds of family status.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

Can you show where its stated that companies are entitled to ask staff to plan their whole year at the start of the year, seriously?

In any case if they do this (which means they probably have other unrealistic policies) good luck to them keeping staff...

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573977#Comment_121573977

Yes, that is the Norm. Permission is really only required for short term notice. If a manager cannot handle six months notice then they are not really a 'manager'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573669#Comment_121573669

Im waiting.... he's getting a fair ould bashing and rightly so for the power trip he is on...tw$t

Hopefully he may see the error in his ways and we can actually improve conditions for the poor sods who he manages!

Jim disappeared pretty quickly

SVI40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573788#Comment_121573788

They can ask all they like. It does not mean they have to be answered.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573903#Comment_121573903

Not at all. My previous post could all in a 5 minute chat following up on the previous one to make him more receptive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574136#Comment_121574136

He's old and retired I believe. Also a gowl.

Akrasia

I work in a job that involves speaking with loads of HR managers from all different sectors. They mostly want people to book their leave early and their biggest headache are people who leave it to the last minute.

It is completely normal for people to book their summer holidays in January and ridiculous to refuse to approve leave because not everyone has submitted their requests.

One scenario where it might be reasonable is if summer leave only became requestable in January, and not all staff have returned from christmas holidays yet, a manager might want to wait until next week to allow everyone a reasonable time to get their request in. (this happens in more 'cutthroat' companies with very tight rosters and strict rules around leave requests

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574105#Comment_121574105

Many companies have policies where only x number of team members can be on leave at the same time.

In summer where people might take 3 weeks at once, this can be difficult to balance, so maybe the manager wants to make sure there is enough cover if one or more staff have requested extended holidays.

Some might be flexible with their dates, while others have commitments that they've already informed their manager of (getting married for example)

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573853#Comment_121573853

You might want to work on your reading comprehension: I said that it's something that some companies do. I didn't say that it's something I do/did, or that I think it's a good idea.

Yes, I'm in my 50s. But thankfully I haven't had to manage staff for over 15 years. And even then, it wasn't in a challenging operational environment, so I almost never declined an application.

For those saying an employer cannot take account of family responsibilities: Nonsense, not only is it allowed, its legally required. There are lots of links confirming this, here's one from a union, no less:

https://www.siptu.ie/services/workersrightscentre/knowyourrights/annualleave/

granturismo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574029#Comment_121574029

Employers must take into account family needs when assessing annual leave - we take annual leave in this country, vacation in the US.

See here for a summary of the Organisation of Working Time Act:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/annual-leave/

Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must:

• Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation.
• Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574191#Comment_121574191

Well then the manager should have a process in place where he gives a deadline for all staff to select their proposed holiday dates. Then he can work out that and approve the dates before people book.

If there is no process an place and someone then books six months in advance then the manager really needs to suck it up and organise cover. Every winter all workplaces need to deal with multiple people out sick with no notice. That is just dealt with.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574191#Comment_121574191

Op stated he was in with the request early before other people so no issue

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574207#Comment_121574207

Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must:

• Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation.
• Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.

Employer's can take into account your family responsibilities, when deciding to approve or decline your application for annual leave - but they should not use one employee's family responsibilites to determine the outcome of another employee's application for annual leave.

If they do, they may find themselves in front of the WRC.

twin_beacon

Do you think giving your new manager an ultimatum in the first week is a good idea?

Nody

Mod:

Since we appear to have new joiners here welcome to boards.ie and I recommend reading up on the forum charter before you post to get an idea on what's ok or not. Secondly a moderator is a normal poster outside the forum they moderate; I and Stheno are the only moderators here who can lock threads etc. in this forum. I've had to issue multiple warnings in this thread so far; I hope from this point forward I don't. You discuss the post and not the poster; that's a boards.ie wide rule and several of you have crossed that line in this thread which we hope not to see again.