Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174770#Comment_122174770

A lot of FUD been thrown around, for some reason on TikTok(probably the algorithm) keeps putting up this garage person who slags off EV non stop. Then every time someone asks him about a high bill repair he shows a hybrid.

He was the one who claimed he couldn't repair a Nissan Leaf for less than 8k, with another company saying they had the part for 500 euro

Then he came up with some bullsh*t that his insurance won't cover second hand parts and that he would never repair a combustion car with second hand parts even if high cost.

I call bulls**t on a lot of it, but then again loads of people lapping it up

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174608#Comment_122174608

We all say there's no certainty in the second hand market yet a quick look at asking prices on donedeal of 3 year old EVs (2021) in Limerick

Audi Etron - 30,900, 39,890,

Leaf 40 - 20,890

Leaf 62 - 26,490

Peugeot e208 - 19,950

MG ZS - 21,950

Kia Niro - 29,900

VW ID4 - 32,000

Tesla Model 3 - 39450 (2022)

Tesla Model Y - 45950 (2023)

The prices aren't auful I'll admit but they're far from the rock bottom bargain basement some make it out to be

Flinty997

I think there's margin to haggle on EV prices. You might knock up to 2k off a few of them. Especially if someone wants back to ICE.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175009#Comment_122175009

Not a lot of private sales in my list. A good few dealers, which raises the other question, are dealers really turning down EV trade-ins or just looking for a quick buck?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174794#Comment_122174794

I can say to you I avoid that rubbish in fairness - whether current non EV owners who are car buyers lap it up is debatable too - car buyers in general can be a sensible lot- for me though I guess I want a longer range car than many secondhand EVs have that will help me to sell it later - I’m not overly worried about battery failure and a bill for 10k or whatever but it is a small concern - consumer confidence will drive everything so anything that can help that would be good - but if a car fully charged does 200 kms new and now only does 170kms 3-4 years later, that certainly could be an issue for many - the more cars come closer to technology items such as mobile phones or laptops I guess the more they’ll be judged that way

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174960#Comment_122174960

Yeah I’m m kindof with you on that- I’ve been keeping an eye on certain models and they’re not “bargain basement” by any means

Flinty997

Can't imagine too many experienced EV owners being fazed by range drop of 10-15% considering how it varies so widely normally.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175105#Comment_122175105

But they don't, mine has over 100k km's on it and same range today as it done the first day I drove it from the forecourt.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175557#Comment_122175557

is that a universal rule for all EVs built in the last 5 years? And is that down to milage or time or driving style or charging process?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175700#Comment_122175700

No idea, just talking about personal experience, the car I had before that didn't lose range either and I had for 2 year I think, then my brother had it for 3 I think

No idea, I just drive the car and charge it :-)

To update, I don't drive slowly, my wife is a lunatic in it, it does the majority of the driving as kids going to sports/school etc and we don't need the 7 seater for most of that. I charge at home, maybe 10 times over its life at a fast charger, that's about it.

Things have gone in it, like a wheel bearing this year like any combustion car but nothign major, it gets serviced/check up by VW as per guidelines

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175764#Comment_122175764

so personal experience of one or a couple of cars

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175846#Comment_122175846

Two cars so far, the other cars in my family they have seen no range lost either, or nothing they can put a finger on

2 x eGolf

1 x original leaf(bought second hand but didn't last long before a crash and was written off)

1 x Kona

1 x Volvo

If it makes a difference, none of them use public chargers and all home charging

Also quick point, the Leaf written off actually saved the drivers Leaf based on the crash expert, if it was a combustion car it would have flipped over, because the battery was in the floor it kept the car on its wheels

Somethign you won't hear about in the negative press

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175846#Comment_122175846

Personal experience trumps imaginary numbers that were plucked out of thin air.

If you want more thorough statistics you could maybe look at this survey: https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/the-truth-about-electric-car-battery-degradation-apYqu1y6IYnr

As of a 2022 survey, cars that were 3 years old at that time still had an average of 98% of battery remaining. 7 year old cars still had 95% of their original battery life. A far cry from the 15% drop after 3 years that you suggested in your prior post.

REDBULL68

Are you really saying you can't hear a petrol or Diesel engine?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176276#Comment_122176276

You need to ask the people who've been hit by them. Shouldn't be hard to find.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172665#Comment_122172665

And if the motor was nosier than the tyres it would suggest a speed of <20kmh

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176276#Comment_122176276

No, I’m saying you will hear any fast car, electric or combustion, the same so making up some bulls**t story about a fast electric car doesn’t really fool anyone

Well anyone with sense

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173638#Comment_122173638

Outside of warranty there is possibly only about 3 garages in Ireland that actively repair EV batteries. Lots more options available if you need an engine repaired or even replaced.

Flinty997

That's because BEVs are only 1-3% of the cars on the road and need repair very rarely unlike ICE car engines and gearboxes.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175846#Comment_122175846

I have personal experience of a car with an internal combustion engine whose range was nowhere near the stated. When I queried this with the dealer he said that the engine had degraded and what was stated was the range "brand new" and that this is to be expected

So range drop is not a phenomenon solely related to EVs

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176551#Comment_122176551

Any fool with a spanner can repair most of the things that need fixing on an EV. Unless you are talking specifically about the battery, motor and charging unit. While these are unlikely to ever fail but there are 11 such garages, not 3, on the island that are HEVRA certified.

You really need to stop believing the FUD if you want to continue driving into the 2030's

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176551#Comment_122176551

Battery servicing companies will develop as the market is needed, 8-year warranties are now mandated on EV batteries.

There aren't many EVs on our roads that are older than 8 years, and the number of them that need battery servicing is going to be even lower again. It's one of those things that you have to live with as an early adopter.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176551#Comment_122176551

Why would you need a battery repair done?

Then again how many times have engine gone to an extend you need a massive repair that would be similar to a battery going?

Plu sin reality if an engine goes to the extend of a battery repair the car will most likely be written off.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176642#Comment_122176642

It’s not necessarily comparing like with like though is it?

Again for consumers in general and not me in particular, if the stated max range of a new EV is small enough (say 249km) when new, in reality we know that with typical driving behaviour and winter weather that could be more like 180km -that in itself is a concern for many would be purchasers - the fact that it “could” reduce down further over time is definitely a factor for many would be buyers.

Most run if the mill ICE cars - either petrol or diesel will do many 100s of kms minimum on a full tank - with a short stop for refuel always at hand if needed - it’s definately still a concern for many buyers

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176811#Comment_122176811

If you need max range with F1 style pit stops buy a ICE. End of problem.

I do 180km so rarely it's a non issue for me.

The issue for the industry isn't why people who don't do long journeys aren't buying EVs. It's why people who don't do long journeys (which is the majority of people) aren't buying them.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176020#Comment_122176020

I wouldn't read much into that survey just as I don't read much into any car reliability or ownership surveys. Owners are biased, mistaken, non-technical, forgetful, mathematically challenged and can't be relied on.

That Which? survey use the following question to come up with its degradation "statistics".

When your [electric car model] is fully charged please estimate how the current maximum range compares to the original maximum range when you bought your car.

An "estimate" and not a good one given that very few people will test the range of their car to breakdown while taking account of variables like tenperature etc. Let alone doing this while they are buzzing with excitement over their lovely new car. And as the survey lumped in cars that were bought used, for all we know the first owner could have experienced significant degradation from new.

Batteries degrade, that's a fact. As for how much, I'd pay far more attention to the battery capacity findings of one man (Bjorn Nyland) than some range survey. As can be seen from this he has found 5.8-15.7% degradation in 1-2 year old Tesla Model 3s

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=244400016

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176890#Comment_122176890

I guess maybe cost in the past when compared to their traditional purchases - costs of production though have massively risen since in the last 4 years, the very time EV sales are taking off - so EVs have got a name for themselves as being over priced -but with every year we’re seen improved range and wider offerings as well as slowly reducing sale prices, I guess many purchasers are waiting for that tipping point where the EVs that are being offered are much closer to their price point and also that the range figure is “acceptable” - it might happen soon enough - if I were in the market for a new EV, I’d really want some reassurance around resale value- we’re hearing a lot of stories and indeed a hell of a lot of posts on this forum around garages not wanting to trade in EVs or giving stupidly low offers for them- what’s that all about as I certainly wouldn’t buy new right now with that going on?

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176811#Comment_122176811

Yes and no. The range never really enters people's consciousness with an ICE because they can pull into a forecourt and fill up. However, the dip in range on an ICE translates to spending more money on fuel. The dip in range with an EV translates to spending more time charging. The EV engine doesn't lose efficiency because there is no carbon build-up. The question is… which is worth more; time or money?

If range is an issue, then you don't have the flexibility of being able to pull into a forecourt at will and fill up quickly with an EV. Conversely, you don't have the ability to wake up every morning with a full tank with an ICE unless you have a pump at home.

But is range really the issue? Many people look at 180km range and think that's nothing… it's not enough. However, the national mileage average is 17,000km per year, or 326km per week / 65.2km per day (based on a 5-day working week).

let's hypothesise… If the range dropped to 150km on a full charge, you could still achieve an annual mileage equivalent of 39,000km per year based on a 5-day working week and driving 150km per day (no driving at the weekend). Perhaps the owner wants to have at least 10% battery by the time they get home (no squeaky bum), then you're looking at being able to drive 35,100km per year or 135km per day based on the same parameters. Those figures are over double the national average.

I'm saying this because the range argument is constantly being thrown about, and the reality is that for many, as per the national average, it is not an issue, or it's a far smaller concern than it's made out to be. I guarantee that if people sat down and charted their driving, many would find that something that could cover 150km a day would be ample for their needs. Yes, they may have some trips that would require a stop, but is that really enough of a reason to completely dismiss an EV?

I'm not saying this suits everyone; some people do a lot of driving and 150km range would be a nightmare. Others may not be able to add home charging which is in my opinion, vital for owning an EV.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176811#Comment_122176811

Sure but that's because the ICE car market is much more mature than the EV one. Go back to when ICE cars first came to Ireland and you will see the exact same issues EVs have now. Fun fact, in 1904 there were 38 cars registered and a handfull of petrol stations but people were still wanting to buy them

My very first car was a 12 year old 1.3L fiesta, it had a range of about 240km.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177047#Comment_122177047

“Yes, they may have some trips that would require a stop, but is that really enough of a reason to completely dismiss an EV?”

Actually I think for some people it is- if you’ve spent all this money on a new car but feel you can’t drive your new purchase down the country (5-6 times a year) without having to organise to stop to recharge, that’s a key issue for many would- be purchasers.

Whether it makes “sense” to you or I doesn’t really matter- consumers don’t act rationally is what I learned in economics class many years ago 😀