Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172318#Comment_122172318

Glad you're ok. I almost drove into a path of an oncoming vehicle at T junction recently even when I thought I had looked carefully. The human eye blind spot can be a pain if/when you don't turn your head sufficiently but rely on one eye only.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172665#Comment_122172665

From how I'm reading it, it was very close when they heard it.

Flinty997

Considering 2% of those stats were EVs suggests no one can hear ICE cars either.

Oscar_Madison

Regardless of what the media says, it’s the consumer that matters and they haven’t yet voted with their wallets to the degree they were predicted to a few years ago.

I’d say price followed by range followed by lack of consumer confidence around resale values and large bills if something went wrong in the future - ie the unknowns

In terms of resale value it’s The second hand market that dictates this and they have yet to warm to the current asking prices in the numbers that are needed to keep the EV gravy train on track- so yes there’s still a requirement to reduce prices further of new cars so that new car buyers feel they are getting value

For second hand buyers the unknowns around reduced range and potential battery failure outside of guaranteed years or milage are definate concerns - if manufacturers and so called experts are confident about these things let them provide lifetime guarantees- job done

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172773#Comment_122172773

When there continue to be no horror stories and people realise the EV batteries are not failing the perception will change, but in the meantime it's great time to buy second hand EVs. Owners like neglegting their older cars but you can't really neglegt a battery so buying one second hand is safer than any ICE in my opinion.

I have bought two old second hand EVs in recent years and the Nissan has needed front wishbone bushings coming to 8 years of age and also two tyres in just under 2 years we owned it. The i3 I bought last week needs front strut gaiters that protect the shocks and also four new tyres so just typical car stuff. This BMW at 7 years of age still shows just over the promised battery capacity when new and I got it at very good price (30%) compared to its original purchase price of about 40k. The leaf is doing ok too at 75% state of health, which is admittedly well below the BMW, but then it only costs about 25% of the price when new.

Both are expected to cost only a small fraction of what an ICE would do in fuel and routine servicing so are a bit of a bargain for suitable driving within their ranges.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172381#Comment_122172381

very true my 2020 etron made no noise, i often had to open the window to let people know i was behind them in car parks etc if they were walking in the middle of the lane, my current one makes a pretty audible spaceship noise !

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172773#Comment_122172773

Agreed. There are a few factors causing the slowdown of BEV adoption. One of the reasons Toyota hybrids sell well is reliability, and that reliability is backed up by an up to 10-year (185k km) warranty if you service annually with a main dealer.

Some people have grievances with Toyota regarding their EV efforts and attempts to slow BEV adoption, valid as they may be, Toyota are offering the same service activated 10-year warranty for their BEV components as their hybrids. Their BEV batteries also covered up to 10 years.

Since EVs are technically more reliable because of significantly less moving parts, why are some manufacturer warranties not reflecting that supposed increased reliability? Fair play to the likes of BYD, Kia and Toyota, they are the market leaders in this area.

NIO did an excellent job innovating with their battery swap technology. Their tech should be adopted by more manufacturers for the ease of replacing a battery if it manifests a catastrophic fault, reducing labour costs.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173141#Comment_122173141

I certainly won’t argue with anything you’ve said there- I guess perception is everything and if consumers perceive that EVs are not where they need to be in terms of their concerns then the sales just won’t follow.

We’re a two car household both currently ICE’s- I’ve gone through personal torture (slight exaggeration 😀) over replacing one of them that’s over 15 years old with an EV- I FINALLY realised that my reluctance had little to do with concerns about EVs (which admittedly i do still have some) but simply the fact that right now, we’re just using the more modern ICE car for 90 % of our journeys between the two of us- the older ICE car rarely leaves the driveway .

Reduced travel post COVID with many still working from home has greatly reduced the need for two “good” cars in the driveway, from my perspective at least.

If I’m honest I’m probably reluctant to buy an older EV for all the usual reasons - ie battery degradation shorter range and potential or unknown costs if battery fails - I’ll probably change my mind on that when the price is right and just get on with it - but yeah, that’s me, but I imagine that’s a lot of others too.

But I’m very conscious that the next oil crisis is probably just around the corner so I don’t want to wait too long before purchasing an EV

zg3409

I have found hybrid taxis with no sound generator are worse than EVs. Many older hybrid cars make no noise at low speeds.

It's pure scaremongering though. If you don't look and step on to a road you may get a surprise. What about all these escooters that have no noise generator?

Flinty997

ICE cars have running into people for a hundred years. Obviously hearing them isn't the safety feature you'd assume.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173178#Comment_122173178

Battery swap was tried 10yrs ago. Failed then and it will fail now. Because its a solution only people who don't use EVs think they need.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173222#Comment_122173222

How any of these EV where hybrids with like 0.5km of range on a battery. Very likely they hit people while on the ICE.

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173265#Comment_122173265

Not talking about battery swap as an alternative to cable charging. Battery swap/recharge stations are an awful idea.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173297#Comment_122173297

Ok, sorry I misread what you posed.

Basically manufacturers, should have easy to repair batteries not glued sealed as some are. But this is like the right to repair the EU are fighting people like Apple on. It's a version of forced obsolescence.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173323#Comment_122173323

The flipside is that as it turns out that the battery packs usually fail with:

1. unintended water ingress

2. overheating

3. bad chemistry

4. manufacturing defects

5. internal mechanical damage

6. external mechanical damage.

If the packs are made serviceable they usually are more prone to 1, 5. If all the bits are sealed for life and kept in place by foam or similar those two are not going to happen ever unless 4 happens. The 2, 3 are obsolete now, 4 should be taken care by the 8 year warranty. So the 6 is the only one that properly sealed for life battery pack makes impossible to solve.

So it provides more reliability basically over the lifetime of the battery pack.

Flinty997

Pros and cons.

I think the issues is the 8yr warranty isn't enough on such an expensive component. Making it repair easier reduces the economic cost of repairs.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173605#Comment_122173605

2-year warranties on engines are enough for people to regularly buy a VW car with an engine. I think the battery warranty FUD is another one of those cases of media misunderstanding has affected people's judgement.

Manufacturing defects in a battery are very likely to have become apparent in the first 8 years of ownership. I think a big reason for the mixed messaging is due to expected cycle life degradation. A 24kWh Leaf from 2011 needed 1,200 cycles to hit 150,000km, that's very different from an ID.4 which can do the same in 365 cycles.

As we see mass-market cars moving to LFP batteries we should be expect 3,000 cycles to be normal.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173638#Comment_122173638

Oh I agree.

Unfortunately since they've let the FUD go unchecked. I don't see how they are going to fix that perception without doing something to reassure the consumer.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173638#Comment_122173638

Exactly, and apart from early battery chemistries the degradation issue is pretty much solved now by just about every battery manufacturer (Looking at you AESC, although this could be due the lack of cooling in LEAF).

Once you get past the 8 year battery warranty period without a failure you are very likely good to go for another 10 years or the end of life of the car without any noticeable degradation, unless the battery fails due to water ingress or internal cooling leak or some impact damage. And sealing the components well and stopping them from vibrating will shelter the battery cells, cooling system and the internal connections from lots of issues.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173676#Comment_122173676

If you think telling people your going to seal their batteries so that in the unlucky event (low %) of a problem after 8 yrs time it will make the EV unviable to repair is going to fix the public's fears of used batteries, and thus the trade in values of new EVs and thus sales of new EVs I think you're mistaken.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172318#Comment_122172318

If you looked before crossing and they were absolutely bombing it, it wouldn't matter if they were in an ICE or an EV. If the engine noise would have made a difference, then you weren't paying enough attention.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173740#Comment_122173740

Yeah manufacturers need to back up their over confident statements on long term battery use with solid long term guarantees - and it will cost them very little to do this if what’ they’re saying is correct - in short it’s actually hurting their new car sales so why not just do it - overnight you’ll see more consumer confidence

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173813#Comment_122173813

Sounds like the driver was speeding...

innrain

This article is a clear FUD and shows what the OP felt when started this thread. As previously said the study is completely irrelevant as it is focused on a dataset which is no more. Similarly I could write a study on the effect of lead from petrol burned in ICE engines. Correct scientifically but pointless. The danger was recognized and safety measures were implemented in 2019. 95% of the EV fleet was sold from 2020 to date according to SIMI data.

The speed with which the said "news" spread is astounding

some with exaggeration from twice to trice

The original article is here if anybody wants to read it. it is free access.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2024/05/01/jech-2024-221902

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172773#Comment_122172773

Limiting warranties to the years make sense because nothing lasts forever but associating warranties to mileage shouldn't happen in EVs. MG is the closest to this, they offer unlimited mileage warranty for the first 12 months

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174513#Comment_122174513

Short warranty made sense on ICE maybe. Less so on EVs when so much of its value and function (especially used) is tied to one component.

Used prices are directly effecting new prices. And consumer confidence.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174513#Comment_122174513

OK I agree to a point - this EV motors forum has mainly been populated with people buying new EVs - so considerations around what happens in 8 years or 200kms or whatever to their warranties are mostly far from their minds but the likelihood is they’ll have ditched that car long before then - but they’re still impacted in their pockets because long term uncertainty for consumers right now has to be matched with lower prices in their minds - as long as uncertainty in the second hand market is there, new car buyers will suffer with larger depreciation rates

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172773#Comment_122172773

I’d say price followed by range followed by lack of consumer confidence around resale values and large bills if something went wrong in the future - ie the unknowns

Range aside, you could be describing a modern diesel there.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174657#Comment_122174657

I think the current consumer concerns around FMV and potential large bills are greatly enhanced in their minds right now when referring to EVs-more so than for ICE cars . Yes such concerns are there when buying ICE cars but they’re much smaller than when considering EVs

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172318#Comment_122172318

No chance this happened, a modern diesel/petrol you don't hear the engine in the majority of cases, its the road noise you hear. Exact same with an electric(I say the majoirty because you can have those stupid exhausts)

I see this been posted all the time and it turns out to be false in most cases.

The issue with electric is at low speed, so when I was backing out of a car spot once someone was talking and didn't notice the car but I had stopped already, they walked into the car. Most of the newer electric now have noise at low speed

What noise would you want on them out of interest? I high pitch beep like they have on trucks when reversing?