Kilkenny And Gaelic Football

Charlie69

Absolutely pathetic thread …. the usual suspects all over it. Fair play to the Wexford man for pointing out the bitterness and double standards

evolvingtipperary101

Can anyone explain to me structure and timeline the club football league in Kilkenny? Or does anyone have any links?

Charlie69

Mod Edit

Warning issued.

NJSC1980

They obviously don’t put as much focus into football as they do into hurling but I’m seeing an odd double standard here.

We have threads asking what the GAA can do to grow hurling in non traditional counties or if traditional counties even want hurling to grow in non traditional counties; and it’s framed in a way the GAA and the traditional hurling counties are responsible and should be the ones tasked with fixing things. Nobody seems to be placing responsibility on counties who for 140+ years saw no issue with having less than 10 clubs in their county that even bother to play hurling.

The creation of a second and third tier hurling championships in 2005 didn’t go far enough, the addition of a 4th tier in 2008 still wasn’t enough and in 2018 the introduction of the McDonagh Cup now leaves it at 5 tiers.

Kilkenny put more into football than around half of all counties put into hurling. Where are the specific threads for Fermanagh/Longford/Mayo/Armagh etc. and hurling? How come Kilkenny’s football standard isn’t being blamed on the GAA or traditional football counties supposedly not wanting football to grow in Kilkenny?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814567#Comment_121814567

Are you telling me that you can't answer those last two questions? And that you don't know the difference between Kilkenny and Fermanagh/Sligo/Longford/Armagh?

The problem with your post is a failure to realise the complexity of the situation and to think that the same context/logic applies to all counties, especially from code to code. It doesn't.

The answers are all on the thread.

1. Wealth
2. Access to funding.
3. Power
4. Cronyism
5. Choice
6. Attitude

The attitude of posters who seek to apply logic by the county of where people come from and try to attack people for creating a thread are the problem on this thread.

On the wider issue (topic of the thread), show me evidence of a GAA President ringing hurling people in Sligo or Fermanagh and offering subsidies to join a lesser competition (in fact they face just having their county team taken from them)? Show me counties seriously trying to grow a sport who still play a knockout championship in this day and age (no group/league aspect to a championship in this day and age)? Even Westmeath have a group stage to their championship. It's one thing not having the club teams (like in Cavan), quite another just refusing to invest in it. Kilkenny are just as guilty as most counties like Mayo of code burying. But also worst that most because of the budget they have, funding (just offered by phone out of the blue from a GAA Pres while everyone else jumps through years of hoops), and power/cronyism in Croke Park. They're on the inside of the corridors of power and sitting at the top table. The sligos, longfords, westmeaths, and Fermanaghs are not. That's the difference.

NJSC1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815302#Comment_121815302

Google the following; “rhetorical question”. You’re welcome.

NJSC1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815815#Comment_121815815

Back what up?! I understand you’re upset as you were the one who created those threads which highlight the nonsensical double standard. Couldn’t care less how you try to justify so didn’t bother reading your long rant past the first line.

We get it. Counties who spend well over a century failing to grow hurling; innocent victims as it’s all the fault of the GAA and traditional counties like Kilkenny. Counties who do likewise in football? How dare they; this is unacceptable.

Oh and sure here you go; Based on 2020 figures;

Kilkenny field more adult football teams than 18 counties field adult hurling teams.

Back on Ignore with you anyway 🙄

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815983#Comment_121815983

Well, you're replying to something you haven't read. And it shows. Because this addresses nothing and proves nothing. It's just an aimless reply. Who cares how many adult teams they have if they have a knockout championship and a cruel league format drawn out over months that begins in January. Buried before it begins. You're not informed on the topic. Google images away but it doesn't stock up to much.

Realt Dearg Sec

"But also worst that most because of the budget they have"

You keep mentioning Kilkenny's budget, can you point to the figures that show kk have a larger budget than other comparably sizes counties? It seems to be a really central pillar of your whole argument, so presumably you have evidence for it.

jimmythesulk

Lots of club football being played in kilkenny at the moment.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816239#Comment_121816239

I'd begin with the point that Kilkenny come from a position of at one stage winning 11 out of 15 all irelands in a few decades- that draws serious investment and sponsorship. Most counties can't dream of competing with that for draw of sponsorship and funds. That kind of success puts bums on seats and sells jerseys for a long, long time. That's a lot of stability and puts a lot of counties in the hapenny place. The financial states of Kilkenny in comparison to counties like Fermanagh, Sligo, Cavan, or even Tyrone is on a level they can't dream of. That's an important factor factor to sports success, financial management strategies, and the ability to mobilize resources when approaching sponsorship or funding.

Kilkenny GAA's 2023 financial performance showcases the benefits of historical success in hurling, boasting a total income of £1,300,417 against expenditures of £979,023, and yielding a healthy surplus of £321,394. Spending on county teams which came to €971,022, a whopping 200k increase on €770,746 the previous year, is not something other counties are putting on their teams. This success is not only a testament to Kilkenny's effective financial management and fundraising prowess but also underscores the financial advantages of sustained sports success, boosting merchandise sales and gate receipts through higher match attendances. There's a few ways of looking at this? We have the stability to really sustain a championship and league for club football or we don't want to damage our appeal as a brand. I've already posted Quinn's statements on embarrassment and such in relation to football.

Fermanagh GAA's budget illustrates a narrative of financial recovery in 2023, bouncing back from a deficit of £107,748 to secure a surplus. Like Kilkenny, Fermanagh's financial turnaround is partly due to increased income from fundraising and Associated Bodies. Despite significant expenditures, especially on county teams, Fermanagh's financial narrative emphasizes the challenges and proactive strategies employed by "weaker" counties in pursuit of competitive resources and financial balance.

Sligo GAA's experience post-pandemic underscores the financial strains faced by counties with less historical success on the national stage. An operating deficit of over €200,000 reflects the heightened expenditures in team preparations and development initiatives, despite maintaining consistent income levels with previous years. The reliance on funding from Croke Park and Connacht Council highlights the disparities in funding and the financial challenges of achieving success. 42% of Sligo’s income comes from Croke Park and Connacht Council. Croke park funding amounted to €379,000 and Connacht Council funding amounted to €141,000 which included €50,000 of a grant towards the cost of the New York trip.

Tyrone GAA's 2021 financial report adds another dimension to this comparison. With a total income of £1,156,181 and a surplus of £76,239, Tyrone demonstrates decent financial management. The reduction of borrowings and diversification of income sources, including successful live streaming of games, highlight Tyrone's strategic approach to financial health. This approach, coupled with Club Tyrone contributions and a focus on reducing debt, showcases the importance of innovative income streams and community support in maintaining financial stability.

The contrasting financial states of these counties reflect the broader spectrum of financial health within the GAA. Kilkenny's financial success, driven by on-field achievements, contrasts with the efforts of counties like Fermanagh, Sligo, and Tyrone, which navigate financial challenges through strategic management and community engagement. While Kilkenny benefits from the commercial and fan engagement advantages of sports success, the experiences of Fermanagh, Sligo, and Tyrone underscore the ongoing challenges and efforts required to sustain competitive sports and financial health within the GAA framework. This comparison not only highlights the financial implications of sporting success but also the resilience and strategic efforts of all counties in managing the financial demands of competitive sports.

For me, there's no reason why Kilkenny can't sustain league/group basis to their club football championship for the ten teams or so. they're in much healthier financial position than most. And have the teams.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816986#Comment_121816986

In ladies football Kerry and Waterford were traditionally the two dominant powers in Munster, but then we got our act together with that remarkable 2005-2016 team although it's been eight years now since we last won an all Ireland in that.

kksaints

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817005#Comment_121817005

Women's Gaelic football tends to be very cyclical, all the teams seem to win their All-Irelands in clusters for some reason.

There is work been done with regards to Women's football in Kilkenny and there's a county team for the first time in a while. It was a pity it stopped sometime after we won the Junior Championship in 2007. TBH i have no idea how successful that will be and with the smallish pool of women sportsplayers outside of Camogie in Kilkenny, I'd rather we'd get a Kilkenny women's soccer team back into the Women's National League as we've had some very talented soccer players from the county recently.

ShamoBuc

Mod Note

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greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817046#Comment_121817046

Re womens soccer in KK.

Wont happen - Any talented player around kk is hoovered up by wexford youths, or Waterford fc ..

CK utd are a joke -total joke.. and wont last long as they stumble through each season ...

keeponhurling

Let's just accept for a minute that Kilkenny have less interest in football. They will never have as good players as other counties, and it is what it is.

What is more a problem is that any good footballer that happens to be from Kilkenny has no pathway. Basically anybody born anywhere in Ireland should have a route to play top level football, should they so wish and have the ability.

Maybe we could consider some sort of "isolated player" system, like we have at club level.

Need to think outside the box. Maybe a South East team to enter Div 4, it could consist of Kilkenny and any non-senior players from Wexford, Carlow and Laois.

Or simply allow Kilkenny players to play with neighbouring counties' county teams, including intermediate or junior.

Or given Waterford and Wexford's struggles, merge them with Kilkenny for intercounty football purposes? Minimum 3 players from each county at any time.

challengerbell

I think this thread is misguided and focusing on a lesser issue while ignoring a more major one.

It is impossible to challenge the fact that Football comes a distant second in Kilkenny behind hurling. And the Kilkenny board could probably promote the game more in at senior level than they currently do. But there is no point putting a team into division 4 of the league only to be beaten by cricket scores every week, and thats against other division 4 teams, cos thats what would happen. Focus must be on youth teams first and you cannot say Kilkenny are ignoring football at a youth level to the same extent other counties ignore hurling.

Yet all we have seen here lately is attacks on hurling counties with charges of them not wanting the game to grow in smaller counties and now an attack on a specific hurling county regarding the most popular gaa sport in the country which is under no threat country wide while ignoring the massive issue of the possible shrinking of the hurling landscape further and further ignoring the fact that it is football counties that are inhospitable to hurling.

Perhaps Im understanding the above posts and arguments here incorrectly, but Tyrone with a similar income to Kilkenny appear to have come up much shorter across the board hurling wise with adult (5), U20 (0), and youth (41) teams compared to Kilkenny's effort in Football with adult (29), U20 (4) and youth (193) so that does not seem like a good example at all. Its not like Tyrone havnt been successful recently either.

In fact Kilkennys combined 197 U20 and youth teams dwarfs a combined contribution to hurling u20 and youth by Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan, Leitrim and Fermanaghs combined 153 teams. Are the likes of evolvingtipperary1 (and im from Tipp) actually arguing that Kilkenny have more resources to give to Football than Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan, Leitrim and Fermanagh combined have to give to hurling? Especially when its hurling that needs more resources country wide.

And to top it off Kilkenny even have more adult Football teams than these 5 counties have adult hurling teams combined aswell.

Talk about misguided attention.

keeponhurling

Misguided attention? The title of this thread is "Kilkenny and Gaelic football" so I think it makes sense people are commenting on this.

Absolutely there are other issues, e.g. the state of hurling in Ulster, but that is a separate topic worthy of its own thread.

challengerbell

I think it is absolutely misguided attention but not surprising. This thread follows an earlier one asking if the big hurling counties actually want the sport to grow, as if these counties were going out of their way to prevent it taking hold in football counties.

It also follows on from a recent public debate surrounding hurling in some counties and the struggles hurling people in those counties have for resources where resources are readily available but football people are unwilling to give. A torch finally being shun on how the national sport is treated in many many counties.

The reaction is threads like this, on one of the largest GAA forums, attempting to divert the spotlight away.....but but but Kilkenny.

Part of the point is that people are willing to make threads such as this but unwilling to make a 'state of hurling in ulster' topic or a 'do traditional football counties honestly want hurling to grow' topic. Why is that? I know why. Its because they dont want hurling to grow in their counties and they use Kilkenny as an excuse. They cant say it so they need an excuse from the other side of the aisle to justify their behaviour.

Newsflash, Kilkennys efforts towards football is demonstrably more than many many counties efforts towards hurling and to focus solely on them and ignore the lack of effort from others towards hurling is so transparent its laughable.

The title of the thread is part of the issue in the fact that this gets its own thread so Kilkenny can be attacked by some perfectly happy to ignore the lack of effort from others.

Lets shine a light on the 1 county that does not take football seriously in a football dominated province, in a football dominated organisation and we can use that as an excuse to ignore how other counties treat our national sport.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819499#Comment_121819499

Excellent post…. This is it in a nutshell.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816287#Comment_121816287

Exactly, the league buried in January. Why not begin in March/April and give them a chance to play on a decent pitch? Nothing suspicious about that at all.

How long is it spread over?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818326#Comment_121818326

By attention, I think you mean focus. And by misguided, I think you mean, misfocus. But misfocus is perfect to some up your post.

Firstly, the argument that Kilkenny is doing more for football than other counties are doing for hurling can serve as a diversion from focusing on the specific needs and challenges facing football within Kilkenny itself. This "look over there, not here" tactic can detract from a critical evaluation of how effectively Kilkenny is addressing the development and promotion of football. It's crucial to assess the quality and impact of support provided for football within Kilkenny, rather than merely comparing it to hurling efforts in other counties. This comparison might obscure the real issues at play, such as the need for a strategic, comprehensive approach to developing football in a county where hurling predominates.

Furthermore, highlighting Kilkenny's support for football without considering the inherent advantages Kilkenny enjoys, being in Leinster and having a significant influence in Croke Park, oversimplifies the situation. Kilkenny's position of power within the GAA and its historical success in hurling grant it resources, attention, and influence that can be leveraged to support football. However, the question remains whether these advantages are being effectively utilized to foster a genuine culture of football development.

Kilkenny's geographical location in Leinster, a province with a strong football tradition, offers potential synergies and opportunities for football development that might not be as readily available to counties in other parts of Ireland, especially those focused on hurling in traditionally football-dominant areas. The leverage and influence Kilkenny has in Croke Park could also be a significant asset in advocating for more resources, support, and attention to football development initiatives. Yet, the effectiveness of these advantages in promoting football comprehensively and sustainably within the county needs to be critically assessed.

The challenge, therefore, lies in ensuring that discussions about supporting football in Kilkenny (and hurling in football-dominant counties) move beyond comparative analyses and address the specific, localized needs for sports development. It involves acknowledging and leveraging the unique advantages each county has, including Kilkenny's position within the GAA hierarchy and its geographical and cultural context. 

Your response suggests that Kilkenny is adequately supporting football, especially at the youth level, compared to other counties' support for hurling. While it provides an analysis of team numbers, it overlooks the quality of resources, coaching, facilities, and overall investment that significantly impact the development of the sport. The mere number of teams does not necessarily equate to the level of support or potential for success. Look at the times of year and length of competition - look at the focus of budget and application of funds. Look at the words and narratives pushed about football, as I posted about Ned Quinn's disastrous narratives about football (apologies & embarrassment). It's a cultural thing, much more than a numbers game. Kilkenny are playing a numbers game that's tied to funding and subsidies. Hence, why Quinn was DESPERATE to field a team when the board and others wanted to not to.

If you create all these teams that still lead to embarrassing score lines, playing football leagues in the dead of winter (but also deaden the league to two games a month at stages), and have a knockout (one game championship for half the teams) championship that runs from the end of September to end of October? A weekend intercounty (two games at most) championship once a year? What are you really trying to do?

hurlaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819499#Comment_121819499

Remember it's a tipp man obsessed with and bitter about Kilkenny not exactly surprising and not exactly rare

Charlie69

To be fair challengerbell is also from Tipp… bitter supporters on both sides are in the minority thankfully.

evolvingtipperary101

Imagine not being able to handle a discussion or opinion without resorting to what... well, sure, look.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800842#Comment_121800842

Have to say that at this stage, I'm just thinking back to this post of almost a week ago, and wishing that he'd actually meant the first line of it. 😁

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816690#Comment_121816690

Are you ..

Nickey English .....

challengerbell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821394#Comment_121821394

Im from Tipp....whats your point? Does he speak for Tipp?

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821448#Comment_121821448

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822417#Comment_121822417

Charlie did speak up for your posts....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821394#Comment_121821394

challengerbell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820971#Comment_121820971

And word salad is a perfect word to sum up yours.

Firstly, only arguing that Kilkenny is doing less for football than they should while ignoring the actions of others can serve as a diversion from focusing on the specific needs and challenges facing Hurling within the country. This "look over there, not here" tactic can detract from a critical evaluation of how effectively counties are addressing the development and promotion of hurling. It's crucial to assess the quality and impact of support provided for hurling within Tyrone, Fermanagh. Cavan. Monaghan, Leitrim, Mayo.........., rather than merely comparing it to football efforts in Kilkenny. This comparison might obscure the real issues at play, such as the need for a strategic, comprehensive approach to developing hurling in multiple counties where football predominates.

'Kilkenny's geographical location in Leinster, a province with a strong football tradition, offers potential synergies and opportunities for football development that might not be as readily available to counties in other parts of Ireland, especially those focused on hurling in traditionally football-dominant areas. The leverage and influence Kilkenny has in Croke Park could also be a significant asset in advocating for more resources, support, and attention to football development initiatives. Yet, the effectiveness of these advantages in promoting football comprehensively and sustainably within the county needs to be critically assessed.'

Honestly this paragraph is a lot of nothing. Kilkennys geographical position? In a football domingated province? Synergy?

'Your response suggests that Kilkenny is adequately supporting football, especially at the youth level, compared to other counties' support for hurling.'

Yes it does. I can only go off what I have read, heard and see and it appears to me that Kilkenny are doing more for football at youth level than many many other counties are doing for hurling. Would you argue that the counties I have mentioned in previous posts are doing more for Hurling at any level? how so?

Im stopping there. Word salad.