Kilkenny And Gaelic Football

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121786739#Comment_121786739

Well Fermanagh don't have a single Ulster championship to their name in senior mens football. They're not exactly ripping it up in ladies football either.

So it's hardly a like for like scenario. If petulant histrionics is all you have to bring to the table, then perhaps you should cease yourself from posting on this thread.

Realt Dearg Sec

Petulant histrionics, would ever catch yourself on ffs. I've posted plenty in this thread but it wears on you when all you see is people having a pop at players doing their best. Could I ask you what your motivation is in posting here? Are you interested in kk football? What are your constructive solutions? And if the solution is to bitch about kk then maybe you should be asking yourself why it bothers you so much. Why is the state of kk football so much more important to you, a person not from kk, than the state of hurling in three quarters of the country?

To be, it would be great if we could get better at football, and there's more the county board could do for sure. They have made house progress lately, winning the junior all Ireland, but frankly that's our level right now. But it seems to me to be entirely an internal matter, the health of the sport isn't at stake. Hurling on the other hand is in dire straits across vast swathes of the country, and basically doesn't exist in some places. That is a much more important problem than whether football is played well enough for your standards by kk teams.

Uncle Pierre

A Wexford man here, so maybe it should be against my nature to speak up for Kilkenny in any way (!), but in fairness, there's far more football activity in Kilkenny than there is hurling activity in many other counties.

GAA annual report for 2023 shows that last year, Kilkenny (population 104,000) had 26 registered adult football teams and 70 registered underage football teams, for a total of 96.

Now compare that with the hurling figures for certain counties of greater population:

• Armagh - pop. 195,000 - 9 adult hurling teams + 48 underage, for a total of 57
• Tyrone - pop. 188,000 - 5 adult + 38 underage, for a total of 43
• Donegal - pop. 167,000 - 14 adult + 66 underage, for a total of 80
• Louth - pop. 139,000 - 4 adult + 43 underage, for a total of 47
• Mayo - pop. 137,000 - 13 adult + 61 underage, for a total of 74

And while Kilkenny may rank bottom of the list for adult football teams with their total of 26, there are no less than sixteen other counties who had fewer than 26 adult hurling teams.

I won't be so naive as to claim that Kilkenny football is played to any sort of high standard, but at least there are efforts there on a more widespread basis than there is for hurling in all those other places.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798205#Comment_121798205

The problem with most of those counties is the size of them (excluding Louth) and how far away the hurling clubs are away from each other.

Kilkenny have no such problems in terms of the size of the county and neighboring counties. Also, I read in 2022 there were 45 clubs in Kilkenny and 35 of them could field an adult team - what happened? Down to 26 adult teams in one year? Hastily pasted together football teams to get funding to put into hurling... surely not... 🙄

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121794659#Comment_121794659

His argument is basically, don't look here at us, look over there at them. They're very bold. The thread is about Kilkenny and Football. Why not set up a Fermanagh hurling thread if so interested?

For me, any county board who is using one code to sabotage funding for another code, should be heavily fined. The GAA needs to start tracing this money up because what's going on around the country is crazy. At least, Fermanagh and Cavan are investing in their hurlers for a five round championship league, even if Croker tried to get rid of the flagship teams. While KK are content to consistently demean their footballers and send them out for a weekend once a year. The junior all ireland is played off on a weekend. The semi is on a friday or a saturday and the final on a sunday. The likes of Hertfordshire and Warkwickshire take part. Kilkenny only play two games in it. Automatic qualification from Leinster because everybody else in the province wouldn't have the neck to do it. Shameful. And Kilkenny must have twice the population of Fermanagh. Look at the state of this club championship from a cash rich county board in comparison to most gaa counties (even replays included in that):

2019 Kilkenny Senior Football Championship - Wikipedia

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799128#Comment_121799128

Any evidence for the last accusation there? Or just the usual?

My point about fermanagh is exactly this: why do you care so much about the kk football team? Why is it that there aren't threads accusing all those other countries of hastily putting together hurling teams to get more funding? There's a very simple explanation for the quality of football in kk and it's a lack of interest, same reason there's no hurling in fermanagh. The difference is that for some reason one county not doing football is a big problem but 15 counties not doing hurling is no problem at all.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799599#Comment_121799599

Let me ring up Ned Quinn for the accounts and I'll go through it. Come on, the dogs on the street know KK use football funding for hurling. They field a team and get funds from leinster council and pull the same thing with development squads. Enter a leinster tournament, play one game and get the same thousands from leinster as other counties for doing so. A few weeks of this and that, here and there, no real effort, and no real investment in football.

There's a huge national furor in ireland over growing hurling and the state of the game and a backlash against getting rid of flagship county teams... plenty of focus and pressure on these counties. Let's not pretend there's not. There' no one picking or singling KK out here.

There's absolutely no reason why Kilkenny can't have a competitive, senior football team. It's a wealthy county board with means and structures who knows how to get things done, get players fit, and sustain a career. It's a willful decision to not have one and to go against football. Exactly like the attitude to hurling in some football only counties.

Realt Dearg Sec

It's not a wealthy county board by any means but anyway if you don't have any evidence you can just say "no", you don't have to make a big thing of what various animals know

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799128#Comment_121799128

"The problem is how far the hurling clubs are away from each other" - ?????

Easily solved. If more clubs made even half an effort to play hurling, then there'd be hurling teams closer together....

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800322#Comment_121800322

The 2nd part is correct. The first part is not. Not when counties see it as easier or financially more rewarding to cut or misuse a code.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799238#Comment_121799238

If you're talking about "the state" of that senior football championship (Kilkenny 2019), have a look at this one too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Tyrone_Senior_Football_Championship

Kilkenny 2019 had 12 teams playing a straight knockout. Tyrone 2023 (and every other year) had 16 teams playing a straight knockout. Just goes to show you can't judge a county's football standing solely on the way it runs its club championship.

And on your other point about only 26 football teams from 45 Kilkenny clubs - will use Tyrone as a counter-example again:

Tyrone GAA website shows there are 54 clubs in the county. According to the latest GAA annual report, between them they managed to field 95 adult football teams last year....but only five adult hurling teams.

Again, I'm not saying Kilkenny are doing everything right or even much right for football. But I really do wonder why they get singled out for so much criticism for their view towards football, when there's barely ever a word of criticism against the counties who do so little for hurling.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800393#Comment_121800393

Your last sentence baffles me. There's been nothing but criticism of these football counties seeking to strangle hurling in the national media for a long time. It's everywhere.

The 'Managed Decline' of hurling by the GAA is a callous ambition (the42.ie)

Five counties threatened with removal from Allianz Hurling League expected to retain places (irishexaminer.com)

It's been discussed on every gaa pod.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800435#Comment_121800435

I can't read that article from The 42 because of how it's behind their paywall. However, just as one swallow doesn't make a summer, one column by one columnist doesn't make a tirade of criticism of many counties for their neglect of hurling.

On the other one - by far the majority of coverage of the proposal to remove those five counties from the League was actually extremely sympathetic towards the counties themselves, despite how they've never done much to build up hurling. It was "how dare the big bad GAA come after these counties?" rather than "let's at least listen to and duly consider whatever alternate proposals are brought".

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800610#Comment_121800610

It’s just one article. There were dozens. I’m not doing your research for you. Segments on the Sunday game. Loads of pods discussed it.

There were countless articles and pods where hurling people from those counties outlined their struggle. Directly pointing the finger at their county boards. So I don’t understand that second paragraph at all.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800638#Comment_121800638

Well then, that's a very different thing you're talking about. Hurling people within those counties directly criticising their own County Boards. Would be like Kilkenny football people speaking out publicly about lack of investment or resources in football there.

It wasn't people from other counties lining up to criticise the likes of Tyrone, Fermanagh, Leitrim, or any one of a number of other counties for their overall lack of interest and promotion of hurling, the way that people from other counties (including yourself) criticise Kilkenny for their overall attitude towards football.

And my core point still remains - using the number of registered teams as a yardstick clearly shows there's more effort made in Kilkenny to play football than there is in many other counties to play hurling.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800744#Comment_121800744

This will be my final post on it.

There are clubs in Kilkenny playing two games in the championship? Yes? Or no? The county team plays twice, if they get to a final. What are you not getting? You're on a roundabout of your own making and you won't get off!

Ned Quinn came out with that spiel in 2013, oh other counties don't get abuse like we do for not playing hurling. Meanwhile they were sending out minor teams that were getting beaten by 70 or 30 points. Delegates wanted to stop fielding a team. But Ned said all we need is a team to compete. Why? A matter of pride says Ned. No, dear Ned. It's a matter of funding. They don't care what happens the players and they certainly don't help them. That's why they're down in the juniors - to keep out of the way of bad publicity. Now, back in 2013, someone supplied the football board with 67 players who were interested in playing... but when approached... no one seemed interested... wonder where they got the names from... See for yourself... (Dear Ned even makes the football issue about hurling. it's affecting our hurling image... unreal.)

THE reputation of Kilkenny is being “tarnished” by the bad publicity football is attracting, it has been claimed, writes John Knox.

And unless the county turns things around sharply, Kilkenny’s involvement or otherwise in the British junior championship this summer could turn out to be really embarrassing.

Even before the Kilkenny minor footballers were walloped by 34 points by Kildare in the Leinster championship last week, County Board officials voiced concerns about the game, the negative publicity it was drawing and the lack of commitment to it.

“It is embarrassing,” insisted County Board chairman, Ned Quinn. “I am embarrassed. Our reputation is being tarnished, especially in the face of our achievements in hurling.”

The chairman was speaking during a discussion at the monthly meeting of the County Board during which Football Board chairman, Tom ‘Cloney’ Brennan revealed that the county was in danger of not having a team for the British championship which commences in June.

Diabolical

“The response from clubs is diabolical,” Mr Brennan told the meeting after coming from a training session at which a mere six players turned up.

“We are about eight weeks away from the start of the championship, but we have no team,” he added.

Mr Brennan said that the team manager, Christy Walsh (Bennettsbridge), a former Kerry and Munster hurler and footballer, and selectors Pat Mulrooney (Clara), Malachy Hogan (Kilmoganny), Eugene Dunphy (Mooncoin) anf Frank O’Meara (Muckalee) were ready to walk away from a situation that seemed hopeless.

“What are we to do if we can’t field a team,” Mr Brennan asked. “There will be a lot of red faces if that happens.”

The Noresiders opted out of the National League this season after a series of heavy beatings during the last campagin and subsequently in the Leinster under-21 championship.

GAA President Liam O’Neill took a personal interest in Kilkenny’s plight and helped accommodate them in the less demanding British championship involving regional teams in England and Scotland so that they wouldn’t have to opt out of the game altogether at inter-county level.

However, the county is now struggling to assemble a squad after weeks of effort to encourage clubs to get players to make themselves available.

Abandon the idea

“Maybe we should abandon the whole thing,” Mr Brennan said when he challenged club delegates to make an extra effort to get players to have a change of heart. “No one wants to wear the black and amber when it comes to football, apparently.”

Mr Quinn informed the meeting that the football team management had deliberately chosen Monday as a training night so it wouldn’t interfere with club training. Still the players were not turning up.

“We have to produce the players for the panel,” he insisted.

Tom O’Reilly, secretary of the Football Board, said they received the names of 67 players at the start who, it was suggested, might be interested in joining the panel. The figures didn’t stack up when the players were approached.

“There is training going on in clubs tonight and we can’t get the players,” he said. “Everything is in place. We can’t do any more. It is up to the club now to get behind us or we will end up with egg on our face.

“Go back to your clubs and tell the players to come in to training,” he urged.

One delegate wondered what could be done if players just didn’t want to join the squad.

Tommy Bawle (Dicksboro) said that the secretaries and chairmen of the County and Football Boards might make a personal approach to 24 players to get them to form a squad.

“All we need is a team to compete,” Mr Quinn said. “We are in a serious situation.”

Former county football manager, Dick Mullins (Erin’s Own) wondered would clubs have a chance of heart later seeing that June was free of major club hurling games.

“The players can play with their clubs until May 19 and then they could help football,” he suggested in reference to a break in the local leagues while the county teams prepares for the Leinster championship.

He was told that wouldn’t work because flights and accommodate had to be booked, and there was the added complication of having passports sorted.

“It will be very, very serious if we don’t get a team,” Ned Quinn insisted. “I hate to see our name being slated because of football. Other counties don’t have hurling teams, but they don’t get walloped for that like we do over football.”

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121795668#Comment_121795668

Yet another petulant rant by you. I have every right as a GAA person, to ask why you treat gaelic football in your county with total and utter disdain? This is Ireland not Russia after all! At least Kerry make some sort of an effort at hurling mate.

greenspurs

Wow...

tipp person has a go at Kilkenny .....

Gaelic Football will never ever be played at a high level in Kilkenny... Never.

Isnt that ok?

And its the same - even worse- for LGFA in KK . Examples.

Theres 33 players on the U16 panel , made up of 10 clubs (out of 12 that play)

Theres 2 U14 panels- 32 on the A team from 10 clubs.

and 22 on the B team from 9 clubs....

Minor panel - 30 on the panel from 10 clubs.

These are all training since early December , ahead of the 'blitzes' in March and April. And they will all get well beaten by the more established football counties -guaranteed ..... And it happens every year.

BUT, give those girls hurleys , and they would probably beat all the other counties in camogie.

Kilkenny 'senior' Ladies Nat Lge results this year.

Leitrim 2-18 KK 0-02

Longford 4-09 KK 2-01

Limerick 1-09 KK 0-01

They are trying, and its only year 2 since their reintroduction.

They really need GF people from outside KK to come in and run these teams instead of club men that 'have the interest' - that doesnt work when playing outside your county ...

randd1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799128#Comment_121799128

There’s 41 clubs in Kilkenny, officially. In reality there’s 39.

Railyard are a football only club.

St Martins and Muckalee are the same club, but played under differ names for hurling and football, same as Dunamaggin and Kilmoganny.

38 hurling clubs in total.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801721#Comment_121801721

Fair enough. This is where I got the info from: 'Fogarty knew that he would encounter some questions based on his home county.

How could someone push two codes when Kilkenny don’t play football?

He has the answer to that. There are 44 clubs in Kilkenny and 35 field an adult football team.'

Will GAA build on Martin Fogarty’s crusade to fix hurling’s crisis? (irishexaminer.com)

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801762#Comment_121801762

Whats your point?

The GAA used a hurling man to help develop hurling????

So why hasnt (or have they?) Kilkenny been sent an 'outsider' Football man in to develop and coach the game, or to the other counties that dont play gf?

randd1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801762#Comment_121801762

The examiner got its facts wrong there so. Unless they’re counting a few camogie clubs in the mix, but definitely there’s only 38 adult male hurling clubs.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800842#Comment_121800842

There's a fair bee in your bonnet.

Yes, Kilkenny football clubs might only get one or two games in their championship. That's the very nature of a knockout competition.

Half the football clubs in Tyrone only get one championship game either. So again, you can't take the way a county runs its championship as a measure of its standing in football, or its commitment to it.

Now, here's one for you. In Leitrim, with its four hurling teams, there are only two championship games played in the entire year. The two stronger teams go straight to a senior final and the other two go straight to another final (not sure if they call it intermediate or junior), and there's no promotion/relegation between the two.

Fact that I don't see you or anyone else on a thread about "Leitrim and Hurling" just proves my point again that no county is singled out for criticism for its attitude to hurling in the same way that Kilkenny gets singled out for criticism about football.

CorkFenian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799238#Comment_121799238

The change to the All Ireland Junior championship was a disgrace to be honest, they turned a good competition (feeding ground for senior players etc) into a mickeymouse tournament overnight, those teams were still in AI semis etc beforehand, massive retrograde step by the GAA IMHO

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802629#Comment_121802629

That's a whole other issue, and in fairness, it had become far from how you paint it as "a good competition".

Cork and Kerry tended to take it relatively seriously all right, but most of the country didn't even enter. The last time it was run "the old way" was in 2019. Cork and Kerry were the only two Munster counties to enter. Just five out of 12 entered in Leinster. Four out of six entered in Connacht. And Ulster hadn't run a Junior Championship since sometime in the 1980s.

So, let's say Cork and Kerry went straight to a Munster Final, and then it was Munster's turn to get a bye for an All-Ireland semi-final, while Leinster and Connacht played each other instead. Cork or Kerry could therefore win an "All-Ireland" title in what you call a "good" competition by playing just two matches.

Overall, that competition had been on the decline for a long time, and it certainly wasn't a case of being "turned into a Mickey Mouse tournament overnight".

But either way, if Cork, Kerry and some small number of other counties still think it would be worthwhile, there'd be absolutely nothing stopping them from maintaining a Junior squad as well as their Senior squad, and arranging a series of matches between themselves.

By the way, the equivalent competition in hurling - the All-Ireland Intermediate Hurling Championship - had become even worse. The last time it was run (2018), Cork and Kilkenny were the only two teams to enter, and so the only game played was the "All-Ireland Final" (and I'm using the inverted commas deliberately). In 2017, Wexford were the only other team to enter, so they played Kilkenny first in a so-called "Leinster Final", before Kilkenny played Cork in the so-called "All-Ireland Final".

Absolutely no appetite for that one to be revived either.

Incidentally, I see that the man from Tipp was the one to thank your post. I'm getting the feeling that he's the sort of GAA person who just likes to give out about the GAA.

Anyway, given that he seems to agree with you that the All-Ireland Junior Football Championship was a good competition, and given that Tipperary didn't even enter it for several years before it was discontinued, I trust he'll be along soon on a thread called "Tipperary and Gaelic Football", to criticise people there for lack of effort, promotion, and commitment to football.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803278#Comment_121803278

You're taking up a lot of space to try and get my attention without any valid points to add to the title of thread. A lot of this over here, and a lot of that over there. But absolutely nothing of interest and ignoring the essential points as always. Nobody stopping you creating any thread you want. I know it's hard to confront actual evidence but keep taking up space.

Picking on a poor county board like Leitrim with 30,000 population. It's not a fair comparison to Kilkenny.

Find me a cash rich county board with people like Ned Quinn, absolutely nailed into boards at croke park, and the corridors of funding power, with a luvvy duvvy relationship with gaa president (Liam O'Neill), that have buried a code so as not to embarrass the image of another code - that would be a fairer comparison?

But it's not about comparison is it? The thread is about Kilkenny and Gaelic Football? I didn't create it but I believe I'm on topic. But sure bring up Leitrim again... anyway, I'm putting you on ignore. Enjoy!

Liam O'Neill has revealed how Kilkenny's footballers have come to compete in Britain.

The GAA president is the brains behind the decision to take the Cats out of the national football league and instead allow them to participate in the British championships.

"I was on the phone to [Kilkenny secretary] Ned Quinn the day after Louth hammered Kilkenny," he says in The Irish Times.

"If we could bring Warwickshire across and subsidise them why not do something for Kilkenny? I said to Ned: 'There's nowhere we can provide competition for you because there's nobody at the exact same stage of development as you are'.

"So I asked myself what we had learned from hurling development. Why not give Kilkenny breathing space for a couple of years?

"Let them play in the British championship without the pressure of playing in the national league . . . and develop a squad who would not be hurlers but Kilkenny footballers with a life of their own - just as the Cavan hurler has a life of his own."

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803392#Comment_121803392

I've made several valid points here about how there's more football activity in Kilkenny than there is hurling activity in many other counties. "Poor little Leitrim" may be the one I mentioned in that post, but I could point to much larger ones where much more money swashes around the places too, e.g. Donegal, Tyrone, or Mayo.

I only went off-point when somebody claimed the All-Ireland Junior Football Championship used to be a good tournament in its old guise, with that person ignoring how it had actually been failing for decades.

You seem to have quite the fixation with Kilkenny. I don't.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803392#Comment_121803392

Obsessed ....... 😣

CorkFenian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803278#Comment_121803278

Fair point it was in decline but to have New York, Kilkenny and Warwickshire play for a Junior All Ireland is madness

Tipp won AI Junior in 1998 I am surprised they stopped fielding a team in it thanks for the info wasnt aware of that , there was a time when it was a lot more competitive in fairness 😀

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803899#Comment_121803899

There could probably be a better name for it than the "All-Ireland Junior Football Championship" all right, but overall, I wouldn't call it madness to have a separate tier of competition for teams of roughly the same level, who'd probably be completely outclassed if they played at a higher level. It's what the entire five-tier structure of the hurling championships is based on.

But true all right that it used to be a decent competition once upon a time, even if a long time ago now. As it happens, Wexford won in it in 1992, with some players who I was playing with myself at club level at the time.

Personally, I think a large part of the reason why counties stopped entering was the costs involved, as spending on inter-county teams started to spiral. It's expensive enough to maintain one inter-county squad, without trying to do it for a second as well.

Granted, the Junior team probably wouldn't have everything the Senior team has by way of backroom structure, but it'd still be another 25 or more players to look after with mileage rates, meals, the occasional hotel night for a match, etc.