A Woke Society? **Mod Warning In Post #435**

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281507#Comment_121281507

Unfortunately we haven't really gotten past the stage where acknowledging gay people exist to children is seen as grooming.

I saw a theory recently that abusers are the most vocal about denying kids sex education. The motivation being that it robs kids of the language to tell people they are being abused, if they don't know anything about sex they view the abuse as 'normal'. I don't fully agree it's always the case, but it seems to hold true an awful lot.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281268#Comment_121281268

Non binary people have existed as long as human beings have existed. As have transgender and homosexual people.

It isn't about belief. It's about acknowledging reality. Do some research or, even better, listen to the experts on the subject. This kind of off hand bigotry is exactly the reason people need to be woke (in the real sense, not the made up pejorative sense).

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281578#Comment_121281578

I was listening to a podcast about Josh Duggar. He was one of the guys in 19 and counting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting

One of the things they mention is how the kids are denied any sex education. It meant that even after he had abused girls in his family, those girls later defended him. Because the girls had been taught that it was a failing that he had to reconcile with God. And they hadn't got the language to be able to discuss what had happened to them in normal terms.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281658#Comment_121281658

I vaguely remember hearing something about that happening alright. It’s exactly the kind of thing I was referring to.

These devout Christian types will scream blue murder about sex education and grooming, when their solution is to pray for the abuser.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281578#Comment_121281578

I’m sure I’ve said it before on here, I think that anyone who doesn’t sign their kids up to the ‘Stay Safe’ programme, or the SPHE/RSE one, should be reported to Tusla for investigation.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281873#Comment_121281873

You’ll never get them to agree. I notice the “parents know best” attitude permeates a lot of these anti woke types. Huge overlap with antivax, anti immigrant and anti LGBT+ shower.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281923#Comment_121281923

In the US among right wing christians there's a particular type of person who believes that parents own their children. The children are their property and therefore they can do what they want. Anyone who says otherwise is interfering. In Ireland we're gradually moving to the opinion that a child is a responsibility. A parent has a duty to care for the child.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281748#Comment_121281748

And the problem is that they lump everything in together as a personal religious failure. So looking at someone and thinking they're hot is at the same level as abuse. And girls are taught that if a guy assaults or abuses them, it's their own fault for being too attractive. It means that girls who get abused quite often think it's their own fault. And the abuser is given the same punishment that they'd be given if they had "impure" thoughts, they're told to pray.

maik3n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121278289#Comment_121278289

If Ireland is now such a woke liberal utopia as you and others here have alluded to, it would seem to suggest that any similar case would actually be very clear cut. We may have been a staunchly Catholic country once upon a time but those days are long over, so I'm not sure how that has any relevance.

You might get a few sermons from the pulpit and the likes of IONA/Aontu, will unquestionably kick up a stink but I doubt it will have any real effect on things.

With that said, there is a chance the plaintiff could end up winning, since Religion is a protected characteristic (thanks to woke liberal SJW's) but it may well depend on what field the plaintiff works in.

If they are a doctor/nurse/teacher/civil office clerk etc, like with the UK case, it's hard to argue how exactly there stance can be upheld, from just a purely practical standpoint.

Whereas, if it was a waitress, supermarket sales assistant, warehouse operative etc, then there would be a bit more wiggle room.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282491#Comment_121282491

If Ireland is now such a woke liberal utopia as you and others here have alluded to, it would seem to suggest that any similar case would actually be very clear cut. 

I never alluded to any such thing - To be honest I dont even understand the meaning of "woke" these days - never mind "woke liberal" and I said that earlier in the thread.

I was merely pointing out that its a good topic for discussion and what way the WRC would see such a case here - Ive seen cases won by an employee that should never have won and Ive seen the exact opposite - clear cut cases being rejected. This one Id be 50/50 on if it was here and not the UK.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280751#Comment_121280751

Seems a bit much to me, but that could be because the sex education we got at primary level was the square root of feck all, and not a whole lot more at secondary level.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283920#Comment_121283920

It might make people feel uncomfortable, but at least it’s accurate and not a load of nonsense euphemisms that make people ashamed of their bodies and feelings.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281599#Comment_121281599

Is that so.

Somehow I doubt prehistoric folk out hunting mammoths and rhinos to feed their families where secretly thinking to themselves, "am I non binary?".

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284235#Comment_121284235

As suggested, please go see what anthropologists have to say about it. Spoiler alert: they disagree with you.

See, it’s easy to be flippant. Being knowledgable is hard work.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284235#Comment_121284235

Thats pre-history.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284272#Comment_121284272

Maybe read the post I was replying to.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284238#Comment_121284238

Prehistoric people had a daily battle just to survive.

Trying to decide if they were a man or a woman wouldn't have been something they were thinking about.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283971#Comment_121283971

No one is suggesting nonsense euphemisms or making children uncomfortable and ashamed of their bodies.

By all means use correct anatomical language and answer any questions honestly, but 4-8 years old don't need to know the mechanics of sex, or understand ejaculation, conception or contraception.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284305#Comment_121284305

That’s not how gender works. Again, you didn’t bother your arse actually doing any reading.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284336#Comment_121284336

If you don’t explain the mechanics of sex, what he’ll do you say if you’re going to answer honestly? If you don’t explain the mechanics the only option left are euphemisms.

My kids asked me and I told them. The younger fella was 6. They knew babies were made by having sex, but weren’t really clear on the details until they asked a million questions about me having a vasectomy.

You feel uncomfortable with the language used because society has conditioned you to think of it as taboo. If you demystify sex there is no longer a taboo.

Now what is the negative implications to them understanding the mechanics of sexual intercourse? What damage will it do? What psychological harm? I’m interested in hearing something other than pearl clutching

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284484#Comment_121284484

I don't feel uncomfortable with the language used at all. As I said, answer any questions honestly, but I doubt every 4-8 year old asks about the mechanics, contraception etc.

I don't agree with supposedly child-friendly terms for body parts at all and I'm far from a prude, but I don't see the need for that level of information with pictures for very young children.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284526#Comment_121284526

You don’t see the need for that. Can you explain why not? It does absolutely no harm and may actively prevent misery later in life.

I’m willing to accept there could be an alternative - but what is it? If it isn’t this clear, what do you want? What do you see the need for? There’s clearly a need for sex education for kids.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284545#Comment_121284545

Do it at the child's pace, rather than pushing it on all children. In an ideal world it would be the parents who would deal with this.

Your children asked and got honest answers, but what if a child isn't ready to hear it? Everyone develops and matures at a different rate. I would have been horrified, and if the reality of periods and period pain were explained to me at that age I'd have lost the will to live.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284235#Comment_121284235

How do you know?

Plenty of historical figures had explicit sex lives, orgies, multiple male and female lovers and plenty of societies had none of the same taboos that our "modern" society would balk at.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284560#Comment_121284560

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree.

Kids growing up in strictly religious households will not be ready for this, before they hit sexual maturity. My wife for her period when she was 10, mad early but it can come earlier. She was completely unprepared for it because of how prudish her family were.

Your kids and mine are lucky, we’ll be honest. There are plenty of parents who won’t be. Those kids deserve a better chance in life, this information will potentially keep them safe from abuse and help prevent teenage pregnancy.

Did you see the posts earlier connecting poorer sex education and sexual abuse?

I know you have kids best interest at heart. But ask yourself seriously: what harm will this information do to the kids?

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284602#Comment_121284602

I don't have children, I'm just thinking back to when I was in the 4-8 age group.

My parents were very progressive, they weren’t in any way religious or prudish. The only religion involved was mass and the usual communion and confirmation to keep the nuns off my back in school. There was no alternative to Catholic ethos schools at the time.

My parents were honest and I was prepared for puberty and periods. Breast development and body hair happened first, but I knew about periods at that stage.

Pressure to have sex before you're ready, sexual abuse and unplanned pregnancies are something kids need to be aware of. I doubt anyone rational would disagree with that.

It's just the blanket and very specific nature of the information posted here that causes me concern. What if a child doesn't ask questions?

Children are told not to talk to strangers, not to go off with one, to talk to their parents etc as toddlers. Is it necessary to explain sex to a 3 year old to prevent sexual abuse?

Why not let a child find out the rest in their own time? They'll have picked up enough information to be curious at around 10 even if they're very sheltered, but a 4 year old is unlikely to be curious.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284594#Comment_121284594

Sure ask yer man with chimp photo.

He has all the answers and thinks all our opinions are stupid.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284673#Comment_121284673

Sounds like you were lucky enough to have a similar upbringing to me, when it came to open parents.

“Why not let a child find out the rest in their own time”? I’ve given several reasons, but in summary: harm prevention.

“Children are told not to talk to strangers, go off with one, to talk to their parents ….”. Well the vast majority of sexual abuse is committed by people known to them family, and usually in the family home. What if the parents are ultra religious and won’t talk about sex at all? No child will speak up

You can’t seem to explain why it’s harmful to be educated early. Maybe because it isn’t.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284777#Comment_121284777

Great research again. That picture is of a bonobo.

I’m not asking you to believe me. I’m asking you so do a bit of reading. Will I find you some reading? Would that help?

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284979#Comment_121284979

Bonobos are known as Pygmy chimpanzees