A Woke Society? **Mod Warning In Post #435**

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569252#Comment_121569252

No idea. Don't own a television so don't watch many ads. I'm inclined to say no anyway. I don't see why some people have a problem with BAME people, LGBT people, mixed race couples and so on playing an active role in popular culture.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569289#Comment_121569289

I'm inclined to say no anyway.

I do have a television and trust me on that one.

***

I dont see it either. Except for obvious and contrived re-appropriation. Like Henry VIII is all of sudden black and/or gay. Or James Bond for that matter.

But ye agreed I dont get it either. I like watching the Equalizer as much as I like watching Bond. And I think Victor in Umbrella Academy is a cool and likeable fictional character. And so on

But contrived over-representation makes me roll-eyes, is all. And thats not even some anti-woke in me, just the cynic.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569351#Comment_121569351

When was Henry VIII black and gay?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569252#Comment_121569252

Advertising, to be fair, is designed to sell, not to tell a story. So it's in their best interests to appeal to as diverse an audience as possible. Diversity = wider market = more sales.

Jack Daw

The UN Women UK committee has chosen Munroe Bergdorf (a trans woman) as it's UN Women UK champion.

33 million women in the UK to choose from and amazingly the person most suited for the job was a biological male.

She's also a complete loon so even if she were biologically female she'd be a poor choice for any such role but her being a biological male is really just taking the piss.Surely if the UN is such an important body and this position is important then they could have tkane it seriously and appointed someone much more suitable for the role.This sort of nonsense does more harm than good for trans gender people as it gives you the feeling that a large number of trans women clearly get a kick out of winding up women and this undermines the trans women who just want to live their lives in peace and get on with their lives without hassling anyone.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/02/un-champion-munroe-bergdorf-women-rights-groups-transgender/

https://fairplayforwomen.com/a-letter-to-un-women-this-male-does-not-represent-us/

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568925#Comment_121568925

If you knew someone who was half-white and half-Lebanese would you say to them, "Hey so I guess you'll be celebrating your heritage on Black History Month?"

I don't have any grasp of Roman racial politics but the whole 'Person of Colour' thing is modern, surely?

Elizabeth Taylor has much more of a 'Greek' look than most English-American actresses whether by coincidence or some unknown ancestor. That may even have been part of why she was cast as Cleopatra (Macedonian Greek lineage). She also played a Venetian in The Taming of the Shrew.

If it were Veronica Lake or Kim Novak, or someone very all-American looking, I think you would have a stronger point.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568924#Comment_121568924

I didn’t so much get carried away with the creative writing, but rather I took your suggestion that alternatives to traditional history should be taught, and applied it to various ethnicities as opposed to restricting the idea merely to black students. I was applying it in an Irish context where in my son’s schools for example there were students of various ethnicities and cultures. The idea being that to apply your suggestion would mean misrepresenting history not just for black students, but for students of many ethnicities. I hadn’t realised you meant it should solely be confined to Luton where there wouldn’t really be that many black students, and applying the same misrepresentation of history would be just as inappropriate for Asian students:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Luton

The argument isn’t about denying anyone the opportunity to learn about their own history, the problem arises when it is suggested that students be taught a history which isn’t theirs, but is rather appropriated from the history of other people’s heritage and culture and so on. That’s why I was pointing out the issues you’d immediately run into were your philosophy to be applied to the curriculum.

As for "An education system should aim to educate people" can you be a little less vague here?

I was answering the question you put to me as to what do I think a good education system should aim for - fundamentally, a good education system should aim to educate people. There’s considerable debate over the most appropriate form of education and so on, but fundamentally the purpose of a good education system is to educate people, be they children or adults. Some people are of the opinion that their form of education is the most appropriate form of education which should be applied across the board, but that IMO is rather self-serving and doesn’t speak to the aims of a good education, it’s just one that perpetuates their own ideology which, it stands to reason they are more inclined to perceive its benefits than those who remain unconvinced or indifferent of its claims of value to society.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I think we're at the point where this just another 'wokeism of the day' thread.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569829#Comment_121569829

your suggestion that alternatives to traditional history should be taught

- not even close to what I suggested, so your whatever it was was a complete waste of time.

You've dodged the education question twice now - are we done here, or would you like to expand on what you mean by "educate" people? Teach? Enlighten? Inspire? Indoctrinate? Train? Discipline? Create? Preach? Philosophise? Should it prioritise allowing the student to develop and learn about themselves freely or should it push the student to conform to a set of prerequisits that society feels are important?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568925#Comment_121568925

And if that appropriation of history doesn't bother us, while this one does, what does that say?

It suggests we all have our own biases, prejudices, preferences and so on. Your example of the Passion film is a good example, but concerns about the ethnicity of Jesus were overshadowed by the film’s far more controversial aspects. Jim’s always been bitter about the perception that he was ostracised by Hollywood after the fact 😬

https://screenrant.com/passion-of-the-christ-movie-controversies-explained/

I can think of a better example of why representation matters, and why it matters that the representation isn’t just perpetuating negative stereotypes of people from different ethnicities and cultures and so on. Hattie McDaniel who played Mammy in Gone With The Wind faced criticism from other black people at the time for what they perceived was perpetuating white society’s attitudes toward black people. When I ask myself did they have a legitimate argument, I have to conclude that they do. Following on from that, does Hattie McDaniel deserve the criticism? I have to conclude that she doesn’t. Black people at the time don’t appear to have agreed with my modern day assessment:

Some critics felt that McDaniel not only accepted the roles but also in her statements to the press acquiesced to Hollywood's stereotypes, providing fuel for critics of those who were fighting for Black civil rights. Later, when McDaniel tried to take her "Mammy" character on a road show, Black audiences did not prove receptive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattie_McDaniel

In keeping with the religious theme I suppose by way of demonstrating the power, importance and influence of representation, and indeed misrepresentation, the most immediate example that always springs to mind is Madonna’s “Like a Prayer” - the video contains powerful imagery and symbolism, roundly criticised as blasphemy by the Vatican, but for ordinary Catholics the world over, it proved to resonate with many people.

Comparing that to Sinead O’ Connor ripping up the photo of the Pope, my reaction to Sinead’s efforts were a bit “meh”, but that was likely because I’d already grown tired of seeing her being placated by Gay Byrne on the Late Late Show. It was quite refreshing then to see Kenny Everett’s response to Sinead when she attempted to humiliate him on live television over his apparent support for Clause 28. Sadly it’s been removed from YouTube now, but his response, in typical Everett fashion, was that he’d turn up anywhere there was a good party! 😂

For what it’s worth, the Catholic Church has never had an issue with how Jesus’ appearance is depicted in art, it stands to reason they wouldn’t in circumstances where it serves their purposes:

https://catholicexchange.com/why-its-okay-to-portray-jesus-as-europeanor-any-other-race/

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569833#Comment_121569833

And what is wrong with that.

That thread never should have been taken down.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570160#Comment_121570160

Didn't realise it was, curious as to why.

What's wrong with it is that there's no Real on-topux discussion. It's just 'hey look! I found a woke!'. No comment on how/if its a threat to society, just an ego-trip.

What's the point?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569893#Comment_121569893

- not even close to what I suggested, so your whatever it was was a complete waste of time.

It does appear to have been a complete waste of time when you’re attempting to shift the goalposts from what you said in an attempt to suggest I misinterpreted your point:

I'd have no problem with the above being taught. The one thing education lacks at the moment is the idea that alternative viewpoints and theories exist and how to exptress what the student feels they believe is right for them and how to back it up. 

…

Well, when I say 'white' history, I.mean traditional.

For me, sticking to conservative/traditional is as ignorant as going full liberal/woke with it.

…

That’s quoting directly from your earlier posts.

You've dodged the education question twice now

I’ve explained numerous times now what I think a good education system should aim for. We appear to have different ideas about what form that education should take, but I see no reason to pretend they can’t co-exist, particularly if it actually is important to you to acknowledge that alternative viewpoints and theories exist. It still doesn’t justify appropriation of other people’s heritage and culture to lay claim to the achievements of others, depriving those people of acknowledgement of their heritage and culture and achievements to give people a false sense of achievement. Like I suggested- there are numerous examples that can be drawn from history rather than attempting to lay claim to others achievements.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570160#Comment_121570160

What’s wrong with it is that the more it goes on, the more it just comes off as nothing more than petty bitterness and resentment, as opposed to making a legitimate argument. Like the claims of minorities being “over-represented” in advertising and media, ignoring the reality that 99.9% of advertising and media is still representative of the predominant majority demographic, so any complaints of over-representation in advertising and media are particularly without foundation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570446#Comment_121570446

Ecaxtky - I very clearly put the goalposts at the idea that alternative viewpoints and theories exist and how to exptress what the student feels they believe is right for them and how to back it up and they're still there.

YOU moved them yourself with the 'approprating history' comment and the rtambling Maryin Luther King Chinese Hitler diatribe, not me. **** knows why.

'A good education sustem souuld educate us not an answer, its ague evasive bullshit and you know it. Even after i gave you several options in the last post.

One last time: if any reply you make is not relevant to what I've written - that education should teach various viewpoints and how express/differentiate them and not just one one interpretation of historical events (or any other subject) and that should teach both conservative AND liberal ideas, then we're done here.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569130#Comment_121569130

where the first 4 shots were like amputee, fatty, black fatty, queer.

Well holy God this post is surely an attempt to have a fair and balanced discussion. I mean you waited until the second paragraph before your started dropping slurs.

🤔

Are fat people woke too now?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570760#Comment_121570760

But what you’re suggesting isn’t offering alternative viewpoints, it’s wholesale appropriation of history to lay claim to history which doesn’t belong to them. I demonstrated where that leads to by showing how it could be applied in any context the narrator wishes it to apply. It’s not educating anyone.

That’s not what you wrote the first time which is what I was responding to, but seeing as you’re so eager to extricate yourself from the conversation - by all means, I’m not going to beg you to stay. I could have put it more bluntly seeing as you’re being so uppity about what you imagine your attention is worth, but I’m not inclined to be rude.

Right then, seeing as questioning the mod team’s decisions is just continuing unabated despite multiple warnings, coupled with the fact this thread has just like its previous iteration, descended into total farce, I’m closing it here.